Curse

Terrible Surgeon · Sep 01, 2010, 08:37 AM // 08:37

I am actually surprised that this thread is still open. Usually threads like this one get slammed shut before any real discussion takes place. I thank the moderators for giving it a chance.
However, i believe future posts should be

/Signed
or
/Unsigned

for allowing the poll the be brought into the user interface/login screen and then leave it at that. Enough arguments have been made on the thread siding with HB and against HB. I think a poll would be the best idea to settle how the community truly feels and felt about HB. I know a lot of players who never tried HB and wanted to try it. I also know a lot of players who quit after it was removed because it was all that they liked to play. New players are buying the game still and HB was one of the selling points. However they log on and it does not even exist.

Morphy · Sep 01, 2010, 09:04 AM // 09:04

HB was a pretty shitty format to begin with given the atrocious AI of the heroes. If it were possible to command stuff like "go there, protect yourself on the way" and if the player could switch between heroes/his own character as if he was taking full control of it, it would become like a mini-RTS, which I think would be pretty sweet. Not that it's ever going to happen, but I'd play that.

Missing HB · Sep 01, 2010, 09:52 AM // 09:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morphy

HB was a pretty shitty format to begin with given the atrocious AI of the heroes. If it were possible to command stuff like "go there, protect yourself on the way" and if the player could switch between heroes/his own character as if he was taking full control of it, it would become like a mini-RTS, which I think would be pretty sweet. Not that it's ever going to happen, but I'd play that.

That post shows that you probably never ever tried HB .Furthermore , as many people already told it , after some fights , it was easy to get used to heroes. Although The crossing map was a bit glitchy , i can't remember of any problem concerning other maps ...
However , correct me if i am wrong , but heroes AI is the same in pve , but i don't see that many people QQing because taklora not healing vs aatxe , because all party wiped by 2 SF mobs , ...

Elnino · Sep 01, 2010, 11:06 AM // 11:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morphy

HB was a pretty shitty format to begin with given the atrocious AI of the heroes.

That can be easily fixed.

Morphy · Sep 01, 2010, 11:52 AM // 11:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Missing HB

That post shows that you probably never ever tried HB .Furthermore , as many people already told it , after some fights , it was easy to get used to heroes. Although The crossing map was a bit glitchy , i can't remember of any problem concerning other maps ...
However , correct me if i am wrong , but heroes AI is the same in pve , but i don't see that many people QQing because taklora not healing vs aatxe , because all party wiped by 2 SF mobs , ...

You're obviously missing the point I'm trying to make. Because the hero AI was so crappy and because they react really poorly to player commands, the things you could do with them were very limited. It led to rather shallow gameplay. Full control over Heroes would lead to far more interesting gameplay. I don't really care about PvE at all, so I'll just ignore that part.

axe · Sep 01, 2010, 01:07 PM // 13:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Drunkard

If you want to keep trying to convince people that HB was worth saving I won't stop you. But understand this, Anet doesn't listen to its playerbase when it comes to pvp unless there is a major outcry. Until that happens, I'm willing to bet that Anet will never bring HB back.

I never set foot in HB not even RR days, to me it was a clear abuse and a just cause for a permanent account ban, yet people were parading to the Zaishen Combat flag like lemmings, the districts were full of abusers. Even if Anet did NOT fix this problem on RR day (which I would assume they would either remove it from the Zaishen combat cycle Or perma ban people for Match manipulation) I still do not see a reason not to bring back the format, IMO its already coded so let people play the format if they want to, just spend a little time closing up "exploits" however sloppy they want and bring it back, it wasnt hurting anyone as far as I am concerned.

remove the AT's, remove the Zaishen cycle or administer perma bans

As far as balancing the format, dont bother with that, people will just farm each other just like every other PvP format, same can be said for TA.

IMO having the formats existing is a step in the right direction especially since here they already exist, they just turned off the ability to access these arenas.

Missing HB · Sep 01, 2010, 02:32 PM // 14:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by axe

remove the AT's, remove the Zaishen cycle or administer perma bans

Why would removing the AT's make the format better ?

reaper with no name · Sep 01, 2010, 03:51 PM // 15:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elnino

That can be easily fixed.

Let's assume this is true.

Anet has yet to see fit to grant heroes the power to not stand in AoE. Do you really think Anet is going to give them the power of variability in behavior?

As long as heroes are predictable, HB-type gameplay will always be degenerate. Therefore, if we assume that degenerate play is bad, then logically, HB must also be bad. This is why it was removed. Removing exploits will not remove the fundamental problems that created the exploits in the first place.

Skyy High · Sep 01, 2010, 08:32 PM // 20:32

As long as shadow-stepping all over the map gives a greater point yield than standing and fighting, HB would always be degenerate. They can't get rid of the shadow-stepping without Smiter's Boon-ing the skills in every other format too.

Further, 90% of casual players would go straight back to RR anyway.

HB was fun when players played it....for lack of a better word, "honorably". Of course, that's not how you play to win, and since it's not like GvG (where you'll never get an match invite if you're an arse to play) no "honorway" was ever established.

Sauron The Greatest · Sep 01, 2010, 09:00 PM // 21:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

As long as shadow-stepping all over the map gives a greater point yield than standing and fighting, HB would always be degenerate. They can't get rid of the shadow-stepping without Smiter's Boon-ing the skills in every other format too.

Not true, I believe it's not hard to restrain certain skills for a format (just like they did in Codex)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

Further, 90% of casual players would go straight back to RR anyway.

Did you bother reading the posts above you?
We would only consider the return of HB if RR was fixed, and it CAN easilly be fixed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

HB was fun when players played it....for lack of a better word, "honorably". Of course, that's not how you play to win, and since it's not like GvG (where you'll never get an match invite if you're an arse to play) no "honorway" was ever established.

Alot of HB'ers were successfull (MAT winners, top 10 ladder) playing "honor" builds.

Del · Sep 02, 2010, 02:10 AM // 02:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Missing HB

That post shows that you probably never ever tried HB .Furthermore , as many people already told it , after some fights , it was easy to get used to heroes. Although The crossing map was a bit glitchy , i can't remember of any problem concerning other maps ...
However , correct me if i am wrong , but heroes AI is the same in pve , but i don't see that many people QQing because taklora not healing vs aatxe , because all party wiped by 2 SF mobs , ...

Actually, having played it to rank two commander, i can say it was pretty garbage. Only reason i even played it that much was because i didn't have to wait for people, or bullshit around pugging and zero prep time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elnino

That can be easily fixed.

Only way to polish that turd of a format would be with Morphy's idea of making it into an RTS sort of thing, and since that won't happen, i'd say HB should just rest in piece.

Missing HB · Sep 02, 2010, 06:22 AM // 06:22

I hope you guys understood that the point of the thread isn't to decide if HB should come back or not , but to decide if a poll making players choose among HB + TA or Codex would be a good idea...

Elnino · Sep 02, 2010, 06:36 AM // 06:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Let's assume this is true.

Anet has yet to see fit to grant heroes the power to not stand in AoE. Do you really think Anet is going to give them the power of variability in behavior?

As long as heroes are predictable, HB-type gameplay will always be degenerate. Therefore, if we assume that degenerate play is bad, then logically, HB must also be bad. This is why it was removed. Removing exploits will not remove the fundamental problems that created the exploits in the first place.

Heroes do kite out of AoE, but occasionally they bug up and won't move (I've seen this happen usually when there's some sort of boundary which blocks the hero's kiting path). There is video proof of this on one of the links on my link a couple of pages back.

If you didn't notice, the serious HBers suggested solutions which would fix the fundamental problems and as a result, will remove the exploits.

Also, if we assume that degenerate play is bad, then logically, every aspect of GW is bad. Think about it.

Morphy · Sep 02, 2010, 08:56 AM // 08:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Missing HB

I hope you guys understood that the point of the thread isn't to decide if HB should come back or not , but to decide if a poll making players choose among HB + TA or Codex would be a good idea...

I'd take Codex over HB+TA any day.

Missing HB · Sep 02, 2010, 03:26 PM // 15:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morphy

I'd take Codex over HB+TA any day.

Any specific reason ? People gave the pros and the cons about HB + TA ( especially about HB in fact ..), but we still got nothing to support codex in fact ...1 year after , the arena is exactly the same , as dead , where people are starting to do RR ...

reaper with no name · Sep 03, 2010, 06:54 AM // 06:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elnino

Heroes do kite out of AoE, but occasionally they bug up and won't move (I've seen this happen usually when there's some sort of boundary which blocks the hero's kiting path). There is video proof of this on one of the links on my link a couple of pages back.

If you didn't notice, the serious HBers suggested solutions which would fix the fundamental problems and as a result, will remove the exploits.

Also, if we assume that degenerate play is bad, then logically, every aspect of GW is bad. Think about it.

None of which address the fundamental problem of heroes being predictable, thereby causing the most effective builds to always be the same ones that exploit this predictability better than the others. As long as this exists, HB will always be a bad concept for a format.

Elnino · Sep 03, 2010, 07:19 AM // 07:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

None of which address the fundamental problem of heroes being predictable, thereby causing the most effective builds to always be the same ones that exploit this predictability better than the others. As long as this exists, HB will always be a bad concept for a format.

Could you please elaborate further on how heroes are predictable?

reaper with no name · Sep 03, 2010, 07:38 AM // 07:38

They have the same behavior. Which means that victory is determined by buildwars rather than actual skill. Whoever can better exploit hero behavior wins.

Missing HB · Sep 03, 2010, 07:44 AM // 07:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

They have the same behavior. Which means that victory is determined by buildwars rather than actual skill. Whoever can better exploit hero behavior wins.

I don't know if you played Hero Battles at a high level , but players were micro'ing heroes , caring on flags , etc... Anyone at a high rank wouldn't react like : " omg dunkoro died while moving not using any skill " , then it's your fault if you're not paying attention.....

Aswell , you said people running same builds , buildwars , etc.. but in case you didn't notice , this happens also in places with no heroes :
- Heroes Ascent , BBway/Wota's/Usual balanced
- GvG : almost everyone running exact same balanced , but usually going to buildwars on tournaments.
So , i'm sorry but that's not a valid argument

Thevil King · Sep 03, 2010, 08:00 AM // 08:00

Quote:

HB was a pretty shitty format to begin with given the atrocious AI of the heroes. If it were possible to command stuff like "go there, protect yourself on the way" and if the player could switch between heroes/his own character as if he was taking full control of it, it would become like a mini-RTS, which I think would be pretty sweet. Not that it's ever going to happen, but I'd play that.

what you do not realize is that high lvl hb gameplay IS/WAS like a mini rts. i know very good players who can micro 10-20+ skills. by that i mean disabling them on the hero skill and manually select it to be used everytime, even when out of radar (this is accomplished by pressing tab or self target once before microing, depending on ally or foe). it takes a lot of skill and practise to achieve this. in addition to microing skills, sometimes it also requires microing positioning and movement, etc.

however, that being said, i do agree that by the later period in hb alot of meta builds do not require as much micro as it used to in the earlier days, which is probably why you think it is so "shitty". this problem can be addressed by doing some changes with the skills themselves. namely, r/p and ss. back then the hb community had tonnes of suggestions for this, but evidently anet did not investigate much effort into it.

Quote:

Because the hero AI was so crappy and because they react really poorly to player commands, the things you could do with them were very limited. It led to rather shallow gameplay. Full control over Heroes would lead to far more interesting gameplay...

...which is what differs the good players from bad players:

good player-proper timing+anticipation+pre prot+good microing=heros survive

bad player-no timing+no anticipation whatsoever+no micro="omg heros got owned stupid ai is dumb hb is dumb"

in evry format when noobs get owned they will complain about something other than themselves, gg.

Quote:

"That can be easily fixed." - Let's assume this is true.

it IS true

Quote:

Anet has yet to see fit to grant heroes the power to not stand in AoE. Do you really think Anet is going to give them the power of variability in behavior?

in case you havent been keeping up with game updates, anet DID code the ai to run from aoe.

even if they didnt, its nothing to worry about because a good player will micro them to position anyways. when you see aoe micro hero1 hero2 hero3 individually to spread out, and there you go. just because certain ppl cant micro does not mean the format is bad.

Quote:

As long as heroes are predictable, HB-type gameplay will always be degenerate. Therefore, if we assume that degenerate play is bad, then logically, HB must also be bad. This is why it was removed. Removing exploits will not remove the fundamental problems that created the exploits in the first place.

the problem here is that your premises are not necessarily true, and, even if they are, do not lead to your conclusion.

as stated above in this post, what separates the skilled from the non skilled is the fact that good players can control their heroes better. this means that, as long as their heroes are being microed properly, they are NOT predictable. even if they run the same builds, there are many different ways a game can be played.

if we assume degenerative play is bad, then not only hb is bad, but the entire game is bad. plz name me one format in gw that does NOT have degenerative play. according to your "logic", we might as well all delete gw cuz its so bad.

true, exploits are not the fundamental problem. the fundamental problem is that anet completely ignored the format and has left it to rot on its own. which is a poor excuse of a maintenance job. srsly, can you imagine how bad gvg or ha would be if no there were no updates for it for 2 or 3 yrs? any format that received the same neglect as hb did will end up as a shitty format.

Quote:

HB was fun when players played it....for lack of a better word, "honorably". Of course, that's not how you play to win, and since it's not like GvG (where you'll never get an match invite if you're an arse to play) no "honorway" was ever established.

lol, honor in gw. gvg is honorable? looool

Quote:

Actually, having played it to rank two commander, i can say it was pretty garbage. Only reason i even played it that much was because i didn't have to wait for people, or bullshit around pugging and zero prep time.

you lable the format as bad, yet you name the primary reasons why the format is good, nice.

Quote:

I'd take Codex over HB+TA any day.

want to find out what the majority of others think about that? /sign this thread!

Quote:

None of which address the fundamental problem of heroes being predictable, thereby causing the most effective builds to always be the same ones that exploit this predictability better than the others. As long as this exists, HB will always be a bad concept for a format.

the fundamental problem is not predictability, nor is a properly played game of hb predictable. every format has its own effective builds for its own purpose, its just the way this game is designed. but this does not mean these formats themselves are bad. you are only employing a typical double standard if you single out hb for that as a fault.

since in my last post i forgot to sign, i will /sign now.