Curse

Ranger Jaap · Sep 27, 2010, 04:45 PM // 16:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Errant Venture

Pugging died in GWs because heroes are more effective than your average PUG

I do agree with this. with just 1 or 2 friend(s) im sure i will make it (bad) pugs most of the times don't listen to your instructions with heros im sure they will do right because i control them and create there builds.

Errant Venture · Sep 27, 2010, 05:42 PM // 17:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

I disagree. In the tougher areas, I find that most PUGs are actually better than heroes. With PvE skills, consummables, and the ability to run out of AoE already gives players a HUGE edge over heroes. Furthermore, players have the ability to split up and work independently (e.g. Eternal Grove mission). What really made heroes more popular than pugging is the lack of good party forming technology in the game. With heroes, you dont need to wait for a long time shouting LFG in half desolated towns being discriminated against because you are playing a ranger then have your team mates leave halfway through the missions. To me, that is the biggest draw of using heroes over PUGs, not because heroes are more effective but heroes are just more RELIABLE.

Titles in GW1 are like more levels in GW2. It provides a reason for players to continue playing GW1 after reaching a max level of 20. If you think players discriminate based on titles now, they can also discriminate based on level differences even without titles in GW2.

You're arguing that players are better than heroes. This is true and I haven't disagreed with that statement. Most PUGs are absolutely horrible at the game though. They do not bring pve skills, effective bars, or personal cons. They do not usually know the areas well or even understand game mechanics. They do not run out of AoE. Heroes do whatever you tell them to and automatically move out of AoE. In general, a good player with UAX will benefit far more from a team of heroes than a PUG group. A good player will ultimately perform the best in an organized guild group or group of experienced friends.

Grj · Sep 27, 2010, 07:05 PM // 19:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chocobo1

Dunno why everyone thinks that only they go through the Elitism bullshit in PvP. We all dealt with it, some of us just didn't give up when we came up against the first bump in the road. And obviously a lot of you did.

False, not everyone went through the elistism bs because a part of pvp is who you know, not what you know.

Some players get carried to the point where they might get dropped for being the weakest link, but they have enough fame at that point to get into higher rank pug's/guilds.

NerfHerder · Sep 27, 2010, 09:07 PM // 21:07

If you want to pug, heros only help you form a group faster. So Heros didnt kill pugs.

Many title farms are much more fun with pugs/guildies(and sometimes much faster, ie Faction Farm). Titles didnt kill it.

Everyone I know pugged alot for WiK when it came out. Also, most of the pugs I had in WiK quests were pretty damn good. So, pugs didnt kill themselves.

I think what killed pugs is what kills every game. Players get bored when there is no more content to be completed. And, the ones that like to pug simply stop playing. Less players, less pugs. So maybe Anet killed it, by not providing more content.

Just a theory.

Skyy High · Sep 27, 2010, 09:22 PM // 21:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sirius Bsns

I sure think so. I think titles enabled players to discriminate and lock each other out of PvP, and even PvE [see: Elitism]. From requiring a champion title for GvG to summoning stones for UW/FoW, titles have killed the spirit of playing with each other for the remainder of the game's life cycle.

Like I said in GW2G, those aren't titles. That's just proof that, with or without titles, if people really want to discriminate they'll find ways to do so.

That said, save for DoA and the brief period when Ursanway took over virtually all PUGs everywhere, I can't think of ever experiencing title discrimination in PvE. Ever. Build discrimination, on the other hand, is prevalent to the point where it's almost a given.

The PvP aspect of this is similarly immaterial. Experienced players do not want to have to teach basic concepts every time they go into a match. This means that they want to be able to identify other experienced players. This means they will either find some way to identify those players, or they will stick with their friends / guildies even more so than they currently do. Rank isn't perfect (a system where you're ranked globally like guild rankings would be far preferable), but the problem would not be solved by removing it, and people need to stop thinking that it would be.

Further, since it appears that this has morphed into the age-old "heroes killed PUGs" topic: WiK disproved that quite nicely. There were PUGs galore when there was actual content to be completed (no, not just BLA). Conclusion? Lack of content (read: age) killed PUGs. Surprise surprise.

Racthoh · Sep 27, 2010, 10:05 PM // 22:05

You make it sound as though PuGs were a good thing to begin with. In what game has a random group of strangers proved to be the superior option to grouping with friends? The only time I can recall actively seeking PuGs was Prophecies days on my monk because if you wanted to learn how to be a better monk then playing with a bunch of randoms in the "hardest" mission (THK) seemed like the best route.

Heroes did not kill PuGs; people were quite content playing with henchmen even before heroes were introduced. I did not mind my henchmen not being infused one bit. It probably had more to do with the fact that when Nightfall came out you now had yet another continent for people to become spread out over, another form of PvP to play with, or two more classes that people were no doubt rolling to experiment with (considering just how imbalanced said classes were initially). The population got spread.

Consumables and nonsense PvE only skills brought about what kills PuGs in other games; efficiency. Yes I'll go ahead and blame the PvErs that were annoyed with having their skills "nerfed" as a result of PvP abuse. Those who claimed PvE balance wasn't necessary. See that's the problem right there, because so many things essentially went unchecked for so long they became the norm, adapted into PuGs and demanded because of their efficiency.

Granted you can also blame titles for giving people goals and spreading the population out too.

Or the end chests to Fissure of Woe and the Underworld, giving these places an actual purpose besides killing everything for the drops.

So basically I'll just say time killed it, just like what happens to every other game. It's just inevitable really.

snaek · Sep 27, 2010, 10:34 PM // 22:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by racthoh

So basically I'll just say time killed it, just like what happens to every other game. It's just inevitable really.

you have to understand there are many variables and many degrees regarding pug activity. "heroes killed pugs" is merely an expression; pugs did not go from alive to dead in one fell swoop.

yes, time helped "kill" pugs, but it is not the sole factor. my big argument here is that gw literally is not the same game that it was yesteryear. time will naturally change things and change how we look at gw; but guess what, there are also many "forced" changes that anet caused through updates (heroes, titles, continents, etc).

we can all assume or even expect that time will kill the pug scene eventually, but heroes/titles/etc/etc have quickened the process. everything plays a role here. i think its quite an unrealistic task to try to pinpoint one sole factor for the "death" of pugs and i don't think the op is trying to do that.

cellardweller · Sep 28, 2010, 03:37 AM // 03:37

Thunderhead Keep killed pugs.

Back in the day when this mish was the backstop for bad play, it made many people realize how much faster and easier the game is with henchies instead. It was the point that gameplay went from friends+randoms to friends+henchies.

Str0b0 · Sep 28, 2010, 03:41 AM // 03:41

Titles are to Guild Wars what Gearscore is to WoW. You can still have bad players with good gearscores just like you can have bad players with titles, but odds are if someone has X title of relevance then they are good for a group for Y dungeon or instance. Honestly there is a very small amount of content that actually requires real people. I usually just H/H most things rather than try to scrounge together a competent group. That being said though if they never introduced titles then people would have found some other way to discriminate, in the technical sense of the word, on sight between good and bad players. Titles just make it easier to make a judgement call.

zan the healer · Sep 28, 2010, 05:00 AM // 05:00

meh to much to read but my opinion is pugging killed pugging

its like random arena if your not running meta
in that EVERYONE takes a solo build, and could care less about team composition if you ask them if they can run such and such, they most likely will say sorry dont have the skills.

granted every now and then you get a perfect group, but that is very rare

in meta areas it gets even worse
you have them run a simple build, and they find some way to mess it up or act so stupidly and could end up wiping your group by pulling extra mobs despite the fact you ping aggressively on the map to tell them to back up or draw a arrow one way and they go the others.

back when guild wars had 2 districts in almost every area it got insane at points

w/mos were everywhere.. 3/4 of the warriors were w/mos.

eles taking terra tank or a variant to make sure they dont die so they could laugh at you if your group failed

sins always taking perma, or at the very least asking if they could go perma.

survivor chars carefully hiding themselves in the groups, the first chance someone dies or if their health drops below 50% they leave fasters than i can change my socks

, not even giving a pre warning saying hey im a survivor char.

then there were the leetists that would bash everyone in their group because he/she thought if there was 8 of him/her he/she would easy the mission, even though they probally sucked.

and a lot of other

that really made me Q.Q and just find guild/alliance only groups, or hero/henched it with a friend

Smarty · Sep 28, 2010, 08:43 AM // 08:43

Regarding PUGging in general, as a regular PUGger in ZMs, WiK, and random NM missions when I feel like some company and friends/guildies aren't available, I'd say PUGs aren't dead. Sure there's some turkey groups and players out there, but the majority of the time I've been able to get a successful group pretty quickly. The player base is stretched out thinly across the game so yes it can take a while to get another human for the non-ZM NM missions, and for most of the missions it's not worth the wait when hero/hench will do the job just as well if not better, but for eg Eternal Grove if you really want human company there's still people out there if you've got the patience.

Regarding titles and PUGs specifically, the only times I even bother to look at people's titles are: (PvE) in areas where displaying a certain title gives a benefit - eg DoA, norn VQing - and that's just to make sure the team isn't handicapping itself by not displaying them rather than caring what rank someone is; (PvP) in AB if I'm not with friends then I don't want to pug with someone wearing a PvE title (particularly low-rank sunspear) because I don't trust a complete stranger to be runed equipped and skilled correctly on a PvE character. Long sentence is long.

Skill bars without flare and resurrect mean more to me than a title.

dark4190 · Sep 28, 2010, 05:08 PM // 17:08

I'm going to go home today and PUG some. BOO YAA! It ain't dead yet!

ilr · Sep 28, 2010, 05:53 PM // 17:53

nope

I see "LFG HM" in missions all the time. ...Usually in missions that aren't the ZM's for the day.
Those Guardian titles are definitely keeping Puging alive. If any titles really detract from it, its the VQ'ing ones. IMO vanquishing shoulda given something else instead, something that only Soloers woulda wanted in the first place....

Chocobo1 · Sep 28, 2010, 09:15 PM // 21:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grj

False, not everyone went through the elistism bs because a part of pvp is who you know, not what you know.

Some players get carried to the point where they might get dropped for being the weakest link, but they have enough fame at that point to get into higher rank pug's/guilds.

Is this honestly what people believe? To get carried you have to know people. To know people you have to get into groups with them. They didn't just open up GW and have friends who not only PvP, but PvP well enough to carry a dead weight.

Seriously, PvP wasn't as much of a struggle as PvErs make it out to be.

fireflyry · Sep 29, 2010, 01:25 PM // 13:25

Title integration outside PvP was the worst thing that ever happened in GW imo.

Instantaneous segregation and categorisation.

I don't think it's the scapegoat of bad pugging but it was certainly an ingredient and minor/major contributor.

Then again I try to PUG with no or low titles.

chuckles79 · Sep 29, 2010, 07:16 PM // 19:16

Titles, and more specifically Zaishen challenges, have kept PUGs alive.
The main reason it's hard to find a PUG on a non-z mission, quest, or to vq something is that there are 3 campaigns, and add-on, and everyone is spread out amongst 3 continents.
I find the best method is to build up a good friends list of active players who are at a similar point in the game.
This way you can invite others or vice-versa on some out of the way stuff (ie I have a new toon can you help me do Thunderhead Keep, or I want to VQ Sparkfly Swamp)

No you can't go to random missions in Prophecies and get an 8 person PuG together anymore, but that's the real reason they added heroes. So you don't get bored if you can only find 4 people who want to do a mish.

doomfodder · Sep 29, 2010, 08:42 PM // 20:42

It's the fact that without out a ZB/ZM/WiK or some type of equivalent, there is VERY LITTLE possibility of actually finding a sufficient quantity of humans in a specific town at a specific time on a specific server to form a PUG.

Here's a link to a potential solution (Now if only ANET would post a broadcast message on log in screen to assist in PUG formation). Unfortunately, this potential solution was either "shot down" by forum users - or my incredible powers of persuation are clearly far less credible than required to pull it off)

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...ight=conundrum

After all it's common knowledge to form an HA PUG you wait in Intl Dis. Also in the days before the holy wrath nerf (when ppl were LF dungeon runs), they would hang in Doomlore cause thats where the runners went to advertse. Think about wtb/wts, it's common knowledge that the most buyers/sellers in in Kamadan American Dists. Common knowledge can prevail but ONLY if it's common.

anyone else got an idea?

Age · Sep 30, 2010, 01:02 AM // 01:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by fowlero

Both snograts and seraph nail it i think.

I would agree with Snog more though it shouldn't show what kind of player you are as to the casual or the hard core.

I would further say it is what has been letting this game die out atleast pugs helped those who needed it especially if it is your first time around.Then there are some more difficult missions that require a pug unless you really like to micromanage heros movement with flagging.You can't develop a strategy with heros which is part of the focus of this game.

MithranArkanere · Sep 30, 2010, 12:45 PM // 12:45

GW has too many skills, but only a few builds are actually useful, and those that are used more widely, are very spread thorough the game.
Without unlocks and tomes, getting a good starting build may get a while.

That means that before you are acepted in parties more often, you have to get the skills first.
That is, you have to PREPARE TO PLAY.
That's why they redesigned the skill system in GW2. GW1 system was too free, so free it backfired.

Because of that, on-the-fly pugging is very bad.
You may end up with a guy that uses a VERY BAD BUILD, and I mean something counter-productive that does more harm that good, and so, many people have to play solo until they get to those areas with the skills they need and get them.
Of course, people still pugs, and can ping builds to check if they have a decent build or not, and instead just kicking people that doesn't have a decent build, they can give a template, but without the 'preparation', they will get kicked anyways when they don't have any 'viable' skills, and so they must be go alone get the skills again.

It was not titles. With or without titles, people would still do things, do them quicker and get rid of the ones that would be a hindrance to the team.

That's why people should rely on guilds for help instead of pugs, since a good guild would be more understanding and give help even when they are not 'prepared'.

Now you must understand why is so good the change in GW2, with the skills linked to weapons.
By fixing 5 skills to weapons, they force people to at least use a few combinations, and so, you don't have to 'prepare' by going to get that skill everyone asks for, instead, you just use the ones a weapon gives you, like everyone else.

mr monk rupsie · Sep 30, 2010, 03:00 PM // 15:00

I'll try to sum it up.

Cons of Pug.
1. Builds, as a moderate player, you know what builds work and what not. Seeing a Pug take skills that does not synergy very well is a slap in your face.
2. build Coordination, You and your party are still in the beginning phase and need to know who is running what. Mostly it takes ages to peel all the builds into the chat and once 2 proffesions overlap each other (mm, ritualist spirits) it takes some time before someone even bother to change his skill.
3. You finally entered, and someone started to run directly in a mob and another, another and another. Then you ask yourself why you took him in the first place.
4. Fighting coordination; a great example is the mission Moddok Crevice (cave where you have to follow up dunkoro's suggestions.), and somebody screws up (attacks spirit at second suggestion, run in front and let the scouts flee)
5. Another example is 2 leaders splitting the party in 2 with their drawings, commands etc.
6. They disconnect at a very unusuall moment (ragequit?). If a mission failed most of the pugs will leave giving you more frustration about point 1 and 2,
7. Non-max armor, weapon (at high level area's)/ less then 400 hp health etc etc.

Pro's:
1. Once you have found your precious pug that is actually good, it will become your friend.
2. Good pugs roll EVERYTHING once you know them.
3. Because of all the frustation the reward at the end is for your feeling 10 times greater.

About the titles: A way to bring people togheter to achieve a goal.