Curse

Skye Marin · Oct 12, 2010, 12:00 AM // 00:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by fireflyry

H/H is not different to 7 heroes....it's an endless chasm of difference imo.

I was doing some thinking about this, as I was running a few vanqs with H/H.

Right now I have the following hench on my team (and some of their skills):

Chiyo (Signet of Spirits, Spirit Siphon, some Restoration)
Panaku (Seeping Wound, Jagged Strike, Serpent's Defense, Entangling Asp)
Kai Ying (Unsteady Ground, Dragon Stomp, Ward Against Melee)
Devona (Engraged Smash, Counter Blow, Staggering Blow, Yeti Smash)

You can look at the exact builds on the wiki, and I know I've cherry picked some of the best hench from the mainland of Cantha, but these builds are pretty good. Arguably better than many PuG builds. There are specific certain cases where 7-Hero parties would completely overhaul difficulty for a single-human team (most notably WiK and DoA), but for also everywhere else, Hench aren't too far off from some of the most effective Hero builds.

Of course being able to set the full team will make things easier, but the hench update from a while ago did make things easier back then, and very few players made a stink about it. Note that update only effected people who played H/H exclusively, as getting 2 humans means no need for Hench.

I would say that Hench don't suck, and that fact could be used on either side, either saying we don't need 7-hero parties, or that 7-hero parties aren't that far off from H/H, so it wouldn't be too big a difference.

Bryant Again · Oct 12, 2010, 12:47 AM // 00:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

there are way more bobs than tims in gw. sad but true.

What we don't know is whether or not this would've always been the case if players had the option. Was the major amount of pugging near the beginning of GW due to enjoyment, or was it due to being essentially mandatory?

snaek · Oct 12, 2010, 01:18 AM // 01:18

^i think the nature of rpgs attract the bob-archetype. i'm pretty sure a lot of pugs were formed due to it being mandatory, but is that such a bad thing? last time i checked (though i could be wrong), you can't solo every single high-end raid in wow--why should this be possible in gw?

i bought gw because it appeared to come across as multiplayer oriented. i've played a lot of rpgs and mmorpgs, and nothing has quite matched the teamwork dynamics that gw has brought. the pug scene is dead. i miss it and i have yet to find a decent (mmo)rpg that compares.

a-kyle · Oct 12, 2010, 01:22 AM // 01:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

^i think the nature of rpgs attract the bob-archetype. i'm pretty sure a lot of pugs were formed due to it being mandatory, but is that such a bad thing? last time i checked (though i could be wrong), you can't solo every single high-end raid in wow--why should this be possible in gw?

i bought gw because it appeared to come across as multiplayer oriented. i've played a lot of rpgs and mmorpgs, and nothing has quite matched the teamwork dynamics that gw has brought. the pug scene is dead. i miss it and i have yet to find a decent (mmo)rpg that compares.

WOW is designed to make you join teams, you cant even do instances alone, where as Guildwars was designed to let you solo, you at 8 other hench/hero team with the right build can solo ALL or 98% of GW alone with out ever having human interaction.

we choose to get together not because it is required but because we have guilds, friends, lovers, family playing that we want to journey with.

snaek · Oct 12, 2010, 01:25 AM // 01:25

^not originally. you couldn't take henchies into uw/fow. up until heroes, humans have always been the more attractive option. 3 heroes ruined it, and 7 will completely destroy it.

Bryant Again · Oct 12, 2010, 01:51 AM // 01:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

^i think the nature of rpgs attract the bob-archetype. i'm pretty sure a lot of pugs were formed due to it being mandatory, but is that such a bad thing?

It's can be just as discouraging as those who want to PUG but are enforced to solo.

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

last time i checked (though i could be wrong), you can't solo every single high-end raid in wow--why should this be possible in gw?

In WoW, you don't have to stay in an outpost to find a 'party', and you can do other things while waiting to find a final member because of summoning stones that take you to the start of the instance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

^not originally. you couldn't take henchies into uw/fow. up until heroes, humans have always been the more attractive option. 3 heroes ruined it, and 7 will completely destroy it.

It shouldn't be the 'more attractive' option. It should be the more fun option.

a-kyle · Oct 12, 2010, 01:56 AM // 01:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

^not originally. you couldn't take henchies into uw/fow. up until heroes, humans have always been the more attractive option. 3 heroes ruined it, and 7 will completely destroy it.

Heros made it better because you have to not just think about you or bobs or billies build but you have to think about three other characters that may be npcs but still have some kind of interaction - welcome to the dictionary definition of micromanagement.

There will NEVER i repeat NEVER be 7 heros, so dont freak out

NerfHerder · Oct 12, 2010, 02:35 AM // 02:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by a-kyle

There will NEVER i repeat NEVER be 7 heros, so dont freak out

You may want to tell that to the live team. Because they are looking into that possibility right now. I'm sure if they knew that, it would save them alot of time and effort.

Personally, I like gaming with other players. But, if someone wants to solo they should have that option. A full hero party would accommodate the solo player who never joins pugs anyway. I on the the other hand, would only use 7 heros whenever I cant get real players. 7 heros will not make the game easier, but it will allow more flexibility to your own playstyle. A full hero party will not even effect the amount of pugs out there. Only fresh content can keep pugs playing.

Also, a full hero party might motivate me to finish my VQ titles. It's more about making the game more fun to play, not easier. Most of HM is easy enough as it is, unless your an Ele trying to do dmg. But, thats another topic entirely. Nobody complains about 2 people taking 6 heros. Why is one more hero such a big deal anyway?

Anon-e-mouse · Oct 12, 2010, 02:56 AM // 02:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

you are still neglecting the fact that the player cannot abuse splinter weapon either. what you are saying is only true for a player that did not abuse splinter weapon. which in practice, i suppose you can say it does make the game easier if you assume that the majority did not abuse splinter weapon.

It was an area of the game that was hard to play through and because of a PvP related nerf, the area was MUCH easier to play through (including Urgoz). And there-in lies the problem, if you nerf a lot of skills, nearly ALL the areas become easier to play through, because the PvE foes also use those nerfed skills.

snaek · Oct 12, 2010, 03:30 AM // 03:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anon-e-mouse

It was an area of the game that was hard to play through and because of a PvP related nerf, the area was MUCH easier to play through (including Urgoz). And there-in lies the problem, if you nerf a lot of skills, nearly ALL the areas become easier to play through, because the PvE foes also use those nerfed skills.

your contradicting yourself now. while i do agree that some areas may become easier, especially if your team build doesn't use said nerfed skill; splinter weapon monsters occupy only a small percentage of pve (as you said, mostly in the kurzick areas), whereas players can use broken splinter weapon builds in any area they wish.

the only real exceptions are skill-types that ai can use more effectively than humans, i.e. interrupts, death nova, etc. not sure if we'll have a problem with those though because interrupts were recently buffed, and i highly doubt they'll touch death nova.

Quote:

Originally Posted by nerfherder

It's more about making the game more fun to play

... for people who like heroes.

bryant, you have a point that its hard to form pugs in gw. my question to you is why does anet only continue to make it harder rather than make it easier? (assuming you agree that the introduction of 7 heroes will make it slightly harder to pug--although other things have also been put into place to hinder the pug scene)

Bryant Again · Oct 12, 2010, 04:17 AM // 04:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

bryant, you have a point that its hard to form pugs in gw. my question to you is why does anet only continue to make it harder rather than make it easier?

Due to the state of the game. Making pugging easier should've started a LONG time ago.

The main problem wasn't introducing heroes, it was in ignoring the difficulties in group play.

Lanier · Oct 12, 2010, 04:27 AM // 04:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

... for people who like heroes.

Is there something wrong with that? The game should be fun to play for everyone - those who like heroes and those who like to play with humans. There are plenty of guilds out there that play around with each other all the time so go find one of those to join. Anyway, the thing that killed pugs most is the elitist mentality that is sweeping through more and more of the playerbase lately. I used to love puging but this alone caused me to stop.

With the attitude of the playerbase as it is, I would be perfectly happy if anet made playing with npc's easier. Playing with a full party of npcs will always be inferior to playing with a full party of humans due to humans being better than heroes, so there really isn't any reason not to increase the effectiveness of npc parties.

Plus, the reason why most people want 7 hero teams is completely irrelevant to the issues of pugs and to the issue of party effectiveness. Many people want 7 hero teams because playing around with team builds and different profession combinations is fun. I would love to get some use out of my less used heroes that I havnt been able to bring on vanquishes in the past due to the necessity of having certain roles filled by heroes that can't be filled with the henchies (ex: minion masters/spirit spammers and healers that actually have the energy management capabilities to partially overcome the aweful energy management that npcs typically exert).

Fox Reeveheart · Oct 12, 2010, 05:27 AM // 05:27

I love my dervish but he's never wanted for anything. And if there is something I can do, the build requires me to have more than half my skills from another class -_-.

Go to DoA today...

Me: LFG!
person: Can you run DwG?
Me: DwG?
Person: Destructive was glaive. look up build on pvx
I check, can be any class but the majority of skills is rit.

Infact, dervs aren't required on any team of ANYTHING. I used to be able to be a runner for MQSC... not anymore "You can't be a finisher"... huh? Well there goes one of the only things I was useful for.

The derv is essentially the paladin class with some self healing and damage with some slight aoe attacks mixed in.. but the problem is how much it sucks at both of them and how both the warrior and monk both outdamage and mitigate damage far better than the dervish does.

Buffs needed for dervish...

Damage buff... why is it warriors and assassins can do better damage with a scythe than a dervish can?

much better passive ability: Making him so darn dependant on enchantments is such a bad idea and you never see them in PvE because it's so easy to strip enchantments should you need to build it. If anything the dervish almost needs to be rebuilt skill-wise from the ground up. Enough of this "if enchanted" BS. Buff the energy and such given back to them when enchantments end if you keep this route. I remember way back when NF first came around and everyone thought "ZOMG THEY WILL BE SO OP!" But that never "really" happened.

It sucks being a dervish these days, especially since my fav char and main is a dervish

You never see dervish heroes unless someone wants to bring the big mox for the heck of it. I take him with some mesmer skills for the energy to fuel his big hitting scythe attacks like a fully powered radiant scythe or reaper's sweep.

Ayuhmii Shanbwa · Oct 12, 2010, 08:29 AM // 08:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aba

fail arguement right there.... Heros and henchies are there for a reason.
And no henchies don't suck , it's the person controlling them, so......

7 heroes also has a reason to come, if you dont know, plz re-read the whole thread
and i never mentioned henchies, which are some weaker than heroes, IF heroes have good builds

i find it weird that people first said that 7 heroes will dmg the game as they are overpowered, then say that hench are good enough (not overpowered) and yet call 7 heroes something that will "break the game"

first they were overpowered compared to henchies, then henchies were good, and that 7 heroes wont change much, and now 7 heroes break the game of pugs

dont take me wrong, i'm a socialist, i just dont pug, i only play gw with friends, unless its something too easy to ask someone for help/to join

if i pug, i just help someone with a quest or something

as people said before "pugs will never die, cuz there always are people who wanna pug and/or group up with friends/guilds/allies"
yet some dont understand that fact

anyway, i still dont see a real reason why 7 heroes would damage the game so much

the population which still is playing gw has more than 90% of people who can do the game h/h, so 7 heroes wont make it that much easier, maybe a bit faster, but it stays the same for those people

then alot of people can start to have fun making their own made group, but it wont be that popular for the ones finding gw easy, so the rest, can have fun with 7 heroes alot more

even so, people who wanna help others may take 6 heroes and the one who needs help, so that if the one needing help is clumsy, or dies fast (cuz of low armor or no self heals) the heroes can take over, just like henchies do, but heroes can be better, and can be controlled

heroes wont be overpowered as they have to rely on the users, as we gotta use our builds (most use pvx anyway), we can rune em or not, we can give em weapons, we can flag em, we can tell em what skill to use
and they dont use pve only skills, meaning that human teams are more overpowered than 7 hero teams ever will be

my points if 7 hero comes:
- pugs wont die
- people who can and will play alone, will maybe use hench less and use heroes instead
- social people will keep using pugs or join their friends guildies and allies
- heroes cant ever be overpowered, unless we can make them immortal (joke?) or give em pve only skills to use
- people can have more fun with their own team by being creative
- alot of people may come back, and some stay longer than they would otherwise

heroes cant use pve only skills, so people will always search for human teams, so they can all use pve only skills
in other words: pugs wont die, same with the multiplayer part of this game

i hope i made my points clear this time

Gill Halendt · Oct 12, 2010, 08:42 AM // 08:42

I really don't see how being given the choice not to play with humans (and to do that decently and more efficiently) is against the "multiplayer" aspect of the game.

Come on, I really hope the playerbase is not so stupid as snaek is depicting them, to quit playing with other humans entirely, just because they can play with an AI...

Grouping with other people for fun, company and personal enjoyment... Ever done that before?

jimbo32 · Oct 12, 2010, 09:23 AM // 09:23

The whole argument that I'm seeing against 7 heroes is (imo) completely flawed.

ie: "I love PUG'ing, and having 7 hero teams will kill the whole scene"

If that is indeed the case, it would seem to indicate that the majority of people participating in PUGs don't really want to be there in the first place, but are forced into it by the nature of the game.

For a lot of people, the draw of GW was that it was promoted as an MMO which could be played solo if that was your preference. For the most part, I think the majority of those people don't participate in PUGs anyway, so giving them the option of taking 7 heroes won't impact anything.

There's still lots of PUG'ing going on for the zmissions and bounties, despite the fact that in most cases it isn't really necessary. I don't see that changing regardless of what is or isn't done with heroes. Same with all the various SC's.

Scary · Oct 12, 2010, 10:36 AM // 10:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aba

fail arguement right there.... Heros and henchies are there for a reason.
And no henchies don't suck , it's the person controlling them, so......

Fail argument to.. Hench DO suck in surten area's as you cannot adept skills to certain areas.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fox Reeveheart

I love my dervish but he's never wanted for anything. And if there is something I can do, the build requires me to have more than half my skills from another class -_-.

Go to DoA today...

Me: LFG!
person: Can you run DwG?
Me: DwG?
Person: Destructive was glaive. look up build on pvx
I check, can be any class but the majority of skills is rit.

One rly good reason indeed.. People thing SC = pro....blaaaaaaa
yesturday we did the foundry random with guild, we had I'll think 3 Wa, one Derv. 2 Ne and 2 Mo.. al with the builds they wanted to run, sure it took us a while and some cons and DP removal etc. but atleast we had fun.
Try this with normal pugs who want just PvX builds... Ow you could get it with 7 hero's

tada

snaek · Oct 12, 2010, 02:48 PM // 14:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by lanier

Is there something wrong with that? The game should be fun to play for everyone - those who like heroes and those who like to play with humans

do you realize how inaccessible pugging currently is? as a pugger, i have to settle with h/h, fl, gl, etc, because pugging is not an available option atm. if you truly believe that the game should be fun for everyone, you would ask anet to make alleviate some of the stress with pugging, rather than making the aleady good soloplay even better.

Quote:

Originally Posted by gill halendt

I really don't see how being given the choice not to play with humans (and to do that decently and more efficiently) is against the "multiplayer" aspect of the game.

Come on, I really hope the playerbase is not so stupid as snaek is depicting them, to quit playing with other humans entirely, just because they can play with an AI...

Grouping with other people for fun, company and personal enjoyment... Ever done that before?

why do so many people go for titles? gw is srs bsns. they want to 50/50 hom and the best way to do it is with 7 heroes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimbo32

If that is indeed the case, it would seem to indicate that the majority of people participating in PUGs don't really want to be there in the first place, but are forced into it by the nature of the game.

pugs are already hard to come across in many areas. people will flock to 7 heroes because it will be more attractive whether or not that is there preferred playstyle. if we flip that around, people would flock to pugs if that was the more attractive option whether or not that is there preferred playstyle. you know, i'd love if the game was completely balanced and the community was so big that either option would be doable, but unfortunately that is not the case.

someone earlier posted about his dervish. how many people are willing to play the class they like despite it being crap? how many people are willing to roll shadowform sins despite not particularly enjoying sf sins but rather because that is the god mode meta build? you can't tell me that the thousand sins i see on gw are created because people actually want to play with daggers?

the only pug scenes that are "alive" are zqs and scs. zq's i admit are great, and probably one of my favourite updates in the entirety of gw next to sorrows furnace. sc's on the other hand are a disgrace to gw and to pugs. the whole team dynamics gameplay is gone and is reduced to a glorified solo-farm build.

NerfHerder · Oct 12, 2010, 03:38 PM // 15:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

pugs are already hard to come across in many areas. people will flock to 7 heroes because it will be more attractive whether or not that is there preferred playstyle. if we flip that around, people would flock to pugs if that was the more attractive option whether or not that is there preferred playstyle. you know, i'd love if the game was completely balanced and the community was so big that either option would be doable, but unfortunately that is not the case.

Most of the full hero party supporters are more attracted to playing with real people. I have alot of fun going on dungeon runs with my guildies. If we get 7 heros do you think I'm going to turn off my friends list?

Sure, a full hero party will be slightly faster than H/H. It will never compare to SC's or even a group of decent players.

Oddly enough, I think full hero parties will actually increase chances of forming a pug. If the players come back or play more because they know gameplay/title grinding will be more fun/accessible, they may notice that there are enough people in town to start a pug.

Xenomortis · Oct 12, 2010, 04:26 PM // 16:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skye Marin

You can look at the exact builds on the wiki, and I know I've cherry picked some of the best hench from the mainland of Cantha, but these builds are pretty good. Arguably better than many PuG builds.

It's not that. The builds aren't bad, they're just not good.
My concern isn't that the game would be trivialised because I can create the better generic hero builds to replace every henchmen (for where this would work, the game is almost already trivial). But I could create much more specific setups - I would no longer have to resort to premade, generic builds to plug gaps in my team, I could construct far superior builds that match the challenge ahead much more effectively. I would control almost everything. In effect, anything that could pose a challenge to the solo player now would really run the risk of being trivialised, certainly for a decent player.
On the up side of making the solo game even easier, I get a lot more room for creativity. Rather than having to try and cram as much broken or overpowered crap onto my and my heroes' bars to compensate for henchmen, I could spread roles and functions around and tailor a setup to much better suit my aims. Right now, I find it very hard to justify moving away from the 3-5 same heroes I run everywhere (and when I do, it's usually because one of them just isn't viable).

Although, some of the henchmen bars are bad. Lina's is consistantly poor and the Nec builds are typically lacking.