Curse

Skye Marin · Oct 08, 2010, 01:00 AM // 01:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aba

IE. everyone starts using this build driving down the price of bone dragon staff or whatever item you get from the Instance.
Now im not sayin this will happen im just giving one example of how 7 heros could impact the game.

You can read my reasoning why Heroes won't negatively effect the economy here:

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...&postcount=396

To sum up, if bone dragon staffs lower in price, that's not a bad thing for the economy and for the fantastic majority of players.

There are some decent arguments against 7 hero parties (effects on difficulty, lowering PuG formation frequency, taking focus away from other updates), but economy isn't one of them.

snaek · Oct 08, 2010, 01:13 AM // 01:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by ayuhmii shanbwa

wherever you use heroes, people will be happy, and those who dont like it, keep joining the people (friends, guilds or pugs) like they always did
it just gives everyone in gw the freedom and a choice how to play the game; like you did up until now, or try 7 heroes

so if they do it, we'll be free to choose how to play the game, yaaaayyyy

ps. sry i repeat some points, but i try to make my point, i hope it worked this time

you keep repeating them, but i've already proved them to be untrue. i don't think you understand what it means to be a "multi-player" gamer. you're a "single-player" gamer, and your choices generally only rely on your input. a "multi-player" gamer like me on the other hand, my choices generally rely on my input and the input of everyone else i intend to play with. do you see now where this will start to create problems? the more choices people are given, the more people that will want different things; the more people that will want different things, the more hard it becomes to group together.

Aba · Oct 08, 2010, 01:47 AM // 01:47

Quote:

To sum up, if bone dragon staffs lower in price, that's not a bad thing.

To you it might not be, but to others that sell these items on a regular basis it is. a price drops will always hurt people.

Quote:

but economy isn't one of them.

basic School economics.
So you want a certain Item. Lets say its at a end dungeon chest.
Now lets take that farm and now use 7 heros. we speed it up and now can do 2 runs in the time it takes to do 1.
So now the farmer has more of these items, due to being able to do it in double the time.
What happens when there is a large amount of a item and so many sellers!?!?
The price will drop because these items are no longer hard to get.
So yes I personally think this does have the potential to hurt the economy,
break it? No of course not, but hurt it yes.
Examples of this happening of course are everywhere through out Guildwars.
Team builds for Elite areas like FOW/UW for example have driven down prices of ecto and shards.(Under 10 Min Uw clear for example)
Now ask yourself what happens when they nerf these teambuilds???
In general do the prices of these items drop or go higher?????

Quote:

* For all buyers, this is good. It lets players with less money do more.
* It's okay if certain very expensive things become less expensive. "The Economy" is healthy when there is a lot of activity, not necessarily when prices are high.
* Full human fast farming and speed clear teams will still be faster due to PvE skills and certain gimmicks.
* It will increase interest in these areas as a whole, and allow more players to play more of the game.
* It will encourage people to play more in preparation for GW2, which is good for Anet.
* It may cause more players to join the game, causing more trading activity, actually helping the economy.
* Players may have to re-outfit their heroes, helping the economy a little.

Your just basically saying itll be better cause all expensive items will be able to be purchased by everyone. Communism in Guildwars basically.
Also with these items lowering in price, there wouldnt really be a bigger interest in these areas cause most of the gamers would just go and buy the item as it being so dirt cheap now. A healthy economy is not one that is just filled with players unable to sell a certain item due to the fact everyone has it already. I mean right now in game its hard to sell items, unless its the current E-peen items.

Post below by Daesu
Your talking about something that not all Guildwars players can do.
Not everyone has 2 accounts or wants to play 2 accounts.
If 7 heros get introduced then everyone has the oppurtunity to use it.

Daesu · Oct 08, 2010, 01:56 AM // 01:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aba

basic School economics.
So you want a certain Item. Lets say its at a end dungeon chest.
Now lets take that farm and now use 7 heros. we speed it up and now can do 2 runs in the time it takes to do 1.
So now the farmer has more of these items, due to being able to do it in double the time.
What happens when there is a large amount of a item and so many sellers!?!?
The price will drop because these items are no longer hard to get.
So yes I personally think this does have the potential to hurt the economy,
break it? No of course not, but hurt it yes.
Examples of this happening of course are everywhere through out Guildwars.
Team builds for Elite areas like FOW/UW for example have driven down prices of ecto and shards.(Under 10 Min Uw clear for example)
Now ask yourself what happens when they nerf these teambuilds???
In general do the prices of these items drop or go higher?????

I can just get double drop with 6-heroes and 2 characters right now on my 2 computers. All you need is a wireless keyboard on one with them, equipped with non-targeting skills like wards, spirits, minions, and press space bar to follow along after selecting your main character.

I don't need 7 heroes to get an advantage in the economy because I get even more advantage with 6 heroes and 2 players right now. And with people like you complaining about 7 heroes, I can continue to exploit this advantage and maintain my lead. People who has more real life money for hardware wins then.

Skye Marin · Oct 08, 2010, 02:32 AM // 02:32

You literally don't know what you're talking about. I'll show you why:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aba

Now lets take that farm and now use 7 heros. we speed it up and now can do 2 runs in the time it takes to do 1. So now the farmer has more of these items, due to being able to do it in double the time.

8-human runs will always be faster because it's economical to use Essences if everyone pitches in, and it's not economical if only 1 player uses 3 to quickly clear 3 levels of a dungeon. In human teams, the dungeon quest reward pays for the Essences, so only the time is spent on a shot at the chest. Besides, Heroes cannot be told to re-cast SF on recharge and maintain Deadly Paradox. There is no chance that 7-hero parties will ever be 2x faster than 8-human speed clears. There is no chance that 7-hero parties will ever be anything but much slower than 8-human speed clears.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aba

Examples of this happening of course are everywhere through out Guildwars.
Team builds for Elite areas like FOW/UW for example have driven down prices of ecto and shards.(Under 10 Min Uw clear for example)

If you could order Heroes to clear an entire area out of compass range, and heroes could use PvE skills, and you could afford the consumables, you might have a point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aba

Your just basically saying itll be better cause all expensive items will be able to be purchased by everyone. Communism in Guildwars basically.

Economic health is metered by activity and productivity, not by how expensive some things are, or by how rich the richest individuals are. In that sense, if you are expressing that you care about the majority of players and how the economy will be effected, then the truth is, not that much. If you would like to keep expensive things expensive, or make them more so, that's a fine prerogative, but don't pretend that 7-hero parties will ruin the economy because some prices of some prestige items might go down.

Quote:

Also with these items lowering in price, there wouldnt really be a bigger interest in these areas cause most of the gamers would just go and buy the item as it being so dirt cheap now. A healthy economy is not one that is just filled with players unable to sell a certain item due to the fact everyone has it already. I mean right now in game its hard to sell items, unless its the current E-peen items.

You don't seem to understand that if everyone bought one of whatever, that would be an absolute flurry of economic activity, and would be fantastic by any measure. The fact remains that prices wouldn't be effected much, and if they were, it wouldn't be as bad as you think. Everyone already has grawl necklaces and charr carvings, and nobody is complaining that they much merch them because they are having trouble "unable to sell a certain item due to the fact everyone has it already".

I hope that you read this, sleep on it, and attempt a well thought out response. Question your own motives, and let me know what you're thinking. There's no reason this kind of discussion can't be reasonable.

Lanier · Oct 08, 2010, 03:48 AM // 03:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aba

Now lets take that farm and now use 7 heros. we speed it up and now can do 2 runs in the time it takes to do 1.

Why would heroes be better than humans? Full human teams are more effective than full hero teams, therefore, you wouldn't really have any special advantage running a full hero team than you would running a full human team. I dont understand what you are getting at here.

Missing HB · Oct 08, 2010, 06:48 AM // 06:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

Why would heroes be better than humans? Full human teams are more effective than full hero teams, therefore, you wouldn't really have any special advantage running a full hero team than you would running a full human team. I dont understand what you are getting at here.

You gotta explain me why did heroes get removed from PvP and why we're only able to use 2 crap henchs so ..

Anyway , point is the multi-player doesnt fit with complete inactivity , i.e what gw is for a few months . Even in pve , many players just cannot do some areas without heroes ( many players do play between 1am-9am euro time , but it's completly desert everywhere , how shall they do DoA , Urgoz , HA , GvG , etc..? ( and plz , stop with those " ask guildies and thats it ' , you will have at best 3-4 players online at same ...)

But yes , having 7 heroes allowed would do good for very dead hours , but i dont know if it would be that a good idea on normal hours....( Maybe just allow 7 heroes for some places? )

Scary · Oct 08, 2010, 07:18 AM // 07:18

Wel, look it from this way...

We HAVE 7 hero's... And at that point there are enough people online in your guilds/alli . Now they are asking You, hey where going to Urgozh are you comming. What wil you do.. Say.. No I have my 7 hero's I wil play with them.
or would you say. Yea fun m8.. on my way.

When I had my 7 hero's.. which I realy would like. I wil still go with my guildies
couse that is more fun... And I'll guess that counts for most of us.

BrettM · Oct 08, 2010, 12:49 PM // 12:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aba

To you it might not be, but to others that sell these items on a regular basis it is. a price drops will always hurt people.

Right! That's exactly why computer manufacturers all went to the poorhouse. Computers used to cost millions of dollars, but now you can get one more powerful than those for a couple of hundred. That incredible drop in price hurt the manufacturers and retailers and everyone else involved with selling computers, because price drops always hurt people. The surest sign of a dying economy is dropping prices! I'm always amazed that more people don't realize this. <Smiley captioned for the humor/sarcasm impaired.>

NerfHerder · Oct 08, 2010, 12:58 PM // 12:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aba

Simple.
Heros were limited to 3 for a reason 7 would make any instance a calk walk compared to using 3 heros and the rest henchies.

Actually, the guy currently in charge of GW1 developement(John Stumme) stated in a podcast that the reason 7 heros was not added was due to PvP. But thats not an issue so he doesnt see any reason not to have 7 heros. It has nothing to do with making the game too easy.

I also found this quote from an interview.

Quote:

This one could probably use a point of clarification – I am open to the idea of 7 Hero parties in addition to something else that we’ve been looking into. It’s still in exploratory development to see if we’re able to pull it off, but things have been looking promising so far. I don’t want to say too much about it yet, just because tldr and paraphrasing is going to happen – and the next thing you know, people are going to be demanding the giant combinable robot moas from the orbital space platform of the Mursaat that we promised them. (How did that even happen?) As for Heroes, we’re looking at having that happen in the next major build after all of the Keiran/Gwen content, as well as some other planned feature releases to help improve the game experience. More on that to come!

If a full hero party were to totally break the game Anet would not even consider it. But obvioulsy, they are working out the details as we speak.

7 heros will never steamroll through PvE content better than 8 players.

Take DoA for example, for the longest time its been dominated by caster spike teams. But that requires a minimum of 3 professions of the same type, usually 4. Good luck tryin to get 3 heros to spike DwG, Keystone, or Searing Flames better than a human team. Human players can spam skills, target, avoid aggro, use PvE skills, and manage energy much better than heros. Human players can also split up to make SCs faster. Sure, I have cleared NM DoA with another person and 6 heros. But that takes 2-3 times longer than the current SC times it takes 8 players to clear the area in HM.

Dont forget, its easy to get someone to drop off 3 heros for you in PvE and have 6 heros for yourself. People do it all the time. Anet could easily make your heros leave when you leave the instance, but they dont. Why? because the advantage isnt worth fixing. So, adding one more hero isnt going to change the game. In the case of discordway, its actually better than 6 of your own heros.

EDIT: Im not picking on you specifically Aba, Im also talking to the few players that are anti-full hero party.

siadina · Oct 08, 2010, 01:37 PM // 13:37

May I put my humble opinion in here?

I am part of a small alliance. I like it that way. We are all good friends with real lives out side of the game. Alas, sometimes we can't play together or something comes up, and one of us is left to our own devices. In this case it would be a great thing to have a 7 hero team. I have been in pugs. Had my builds ripped apart and kicked from teams. Do I now want to pug again? No.
So I load up on hero/henchmen and try for the HM stuff I want to complete for my titles. Time and time again fail. Friend logs in, and YAY done.
I would actually like to play the game by myself. Not have to wait for a group that will just kick the bha ranger.*note i do have other builds and have changed at trequest several times to be kicked from a group yet again* Not wait for my friend to log in. And if a 7 hero team will allow me to do that, I am all over it.
Since I am sitting pretty on 12k I could care less about someones e-peen ecto stash, or the current price of a flashy item I will never be able to afford.
If the 7 hero team is allowed, it will give me more incentive to finish my titles, and actually get more enjoyment out of my game.

a-kyle · Oct 08, 2010, 02:04 PM // 14:04

they will never do a 7 hero team, nuff said

Gill Halendt · Oct 08, 2010, 06:40 PM // 18:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aba

Please enlighten us with all these threads where anet staff stated we are getting 7 heros please...

Not directly on the forums, but in the latest interview by KillTenRats:

Quote:

Another interesting tidbit from the Relics of Orr podcast was with regard to heroes. You said you were open to reviewing the decision on using 7 heroes, but that you were looking in to something else for heroes. Can you give us any more information on a possible heroes update?

This one could probably use a point of clarification – I am open to the idea of 7 Hero parties in addition to something else that we’ve been looking into. It’s still in exploratory development to see if we’re able to pull it off, but things have been looking promising so far. I don’t want to say too much about it yet, just because tldr and paraphrasing is going to happen – and the next thing you know, people are going to be demanding the giant combinable robot moas from the orbital space platform of the Mursaat that we promised them. (How did that even happen?) As for Heroes, we’re looking at having that happen in the next major build after all of the Keiran/Gwen content, as well as some other planned feature releases to help improve the game experience. More on that to come!

Ambiguity remains - what's in exploratory development? 7 heroes? "Something else"? Both? - but they're definitely looking into it, and the survey about WiK is further confirmation.

Aba · Oct 08, 2010, 07:09 PM // 19:09

K I give up.
I stated my thought and you all repeated yours.
Though most are just repeated arguements, some are sound.
Thank you all for the interesting chat, though I'm still anti hero in most cases
I've opens up to it for some places(elite ares like urgoz)
So I'll stop there as some people are just taking this
beyond madness, refusinng to believe that it will do nothing to the game aside giving every player a cheerful desposition.

Ayuhmii Shanbwa · Oct 09, 2010, 08:00 AM // 08:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aba

Simple.
Heros were limited to 3 for a reason 7 would make any instance a calk walk compared to using 3 heros and the rest henchies.

i said it before: back then 7 heroes would harm the game, but little by little, the game has been dying (dying as becoming less active), and people have left

as the game is now, seeing the community, it will no longer harm the game, people may actually come back, instead of leaving
as a matter of fact, someone i know a long time in gw, said a few days ago:
i'll be back if they give us full hero teams

and as he keeps in contact with alot of ex-gw players, he knows they will be back once hs is... kinda important guy to them i guess

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

you keep repeating them, but i've already proved them to be untrue. i don't think you understand what it means to be a "multi-player" gamer. you're a "single-player" gamer

i'm both, i would join people ( i am lately, even though he's doing alot i dont even need, like certain dungeons on NM, as i got help with those long ago) and enjoy company

on the other hand, if i dont wanna keep asking for help (and i dislike to do that alot), and if he's not online, i can use the full hero team to do the work he normally does, except for the pve only skills

sorry for repeating certain points, but it seems i had to, as some didnt understand what i meant

players will always be better, because (i'm talking about good players who can do alot) they know what they're doing, and they can either team chat or TS/vent how to work together, and gw has a nice thing which you can do when clicking with your gw mouse arrow on the compass/radar, not to forget the targeting mechanics

7 heroes will fill up the emptyness teams have, thats all it really does
not to forget we can use our heroes's new armors in HoM for GW2 (with the calculator) to unlock more, and that would only be actually nice if we can use more than 3 heroes at a time

for example, i game livia, razah and xandra new armors, while i only use discord (3 necro heroes) so i cant see the new armors of the 2 rit heroes, which i gave them

also, Anet sees it wont harm the game and its community, as they always did things to let people play together, like killing certain farm builds, and nerf overpowered builds, so that people have a harder time, and need people for certain things

i dont even think 7 heroes could do 100% of uw,fow,doa etc, at least not that easily (talking about teams without solo player(s) )
it may be that heroes are AI, so they can react much faster, but they cant really use skills in the order they are supposed to do

like spiritway, i never really saw how it can be so good, as they cant teleport spirits to their locations, and they put up spirits as soon as the battle starts, non matter how far the enemies are, and the recharge will take a while, which is why i use discord, which will change if i can make better teams with 7 heroes (or 5 in kryta, for the wanteds)

oh man, that was some typing and thinking, lol, i hope i didnt go against some rules, i just made my point clearer (hopefully clear enough for most people here)

we just will see who anet will agree with, the ones who say it should come, or the ones who say it kills the game

dont forget that calculator, it'll make 7 hero teams more popular to the ones playing alone, or still trying to get groups in guild/allies, cuz of the amount of people who left

for me, i have a very few friends who arent on all day, who can help/join me, the rest is... busy... all the time o_O

i never looked at HoM, but since i got that calculator, i like to get more (wow, i'll actually become active)
and since i'm at 17 points, i like that jellyfish, which is more (20 i believe)

so 7 heroes will be very welcome (even more than before) since yesterday, lol

{WARNING} the calculator shows what items/pets you get, can be a bad spoiler to some people {end WARNING}

Gill Halendt · Oct 09, 2010, 11:57 AM // 11:57

The faculty of playing with other people is what makes a multiplayer game.

Nowhere on the box is stated you MUST team with other people EVERY TIME, and it's been like that for almost 6 years. You know, henchmen were there for a reason...

Pretty much every game allows solo play, be it by spawn/difficulty scaling, AI help and such.

Sorry, I don't care if the developers invented funny acronyms such as COORPG (Cooperative Role-Playing Game) to describe Guild Wars. It's an online game, and it's always been designed to be solo-playable as well as multiplayer.

This is an improvement planned for a game at the end of its life cycle, and it likely won't happen but closer to the release of the sequel. So, if most of the playerbase moves to the new game, good luck with the "multiplayer" aspect...

fireflyry · Oct 09, 2010, 01:41 PM // 13:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skye Marin

8-human runs will always be faster because it's economical to use Essences if everyone pitches in, and it's not economical if only 1 player uses 3 to quickly clear 3 levels of a dungeon.

Tbh I don't question so much the performance of such a scenario.My main issue has always been accessibility.All human runs shouldn't be faster....they should be a prerequisite to access certain content in an MMORPG.

7-Heroes is a key.

Skye Marin · Oct 09, 2010, 06:10 PM // 18:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by fireflyry

Tbh I don't question so much the performance of such a scenario.My main issue has always been accessibility.All human runs shouldn't be faster....they should be a prerequisite to access certain content in an MMORPG.

7-Heroes is a key.

That's a fine argument against 7-hero parties. Requiring human interaction for certain achievements isn't an outrageous expectation. I don't think anyone would expect to be able to beat Urgoz or Kannaxi with just heroes, just as I don't think anyone serious about farming would do it with just heroes.

The truth is that if you never roll with other people, some things will be impossible, and even with 7-hero parties, some things will likely remain impossible... just not as many. I can see how many people can think increasing accessibility is good or bad, and I respect both sides.

However, if I was Anet, I would be inclined to increase accessibility because it gives more new content to more people, which may increase their HoM investment, encouraging them to get GW2. Anet knows that players who are against increased accessibility probably already have a strong HoM investment, and will get GW2 anyways. Of course there may be exceptions (some people saying that they feel betrayed), but knowing how the internet works, I'd imagine most are exaggerating their threats and in the end, the numbers would speak clearly.

Basically, if adding 7 heroes can get more people into GW2 than it would drive away, (and there aren't any clearly better alternatives) then they will do it.

Adul · Oct 09, 2010, 08:42 PM // 20:42

Let's say that there is this guy named Bob who wants to do an elite mission. He really wants to do it by himself, as he hates interacting with others. However, due to the lack of henchmen in the outpost, he cannot make a party over the size of 4, which is simply not enough.

You also enter the outpost, and you also want to do the mission. You start recruiting a PUG, and you pick up Bob. Bob really doesn't want to join a PUG but he has no other choice. When the group faces difficulties during the mission, Bob simply leaves.

Was it really a good idea to take Bob? If Bob had the option to bring 7 heroes, he would've simply failed by himself, and your party would've been one leaver less. Everyone would've been spared the frustration.

I know this all sounds fantasy, but I've been to PUGs where half of the players were Bobs. It wasn't fun.

snaek · Oct 09, 2010, 09:18 PM // 21:18

^let's say that there is this guy named bob who gets to play by himself with 7heroes...meanwhile a pug team sits in the outpost for hours and hours looking for someone to fill the last spot 7/8.