Curse

Gill Halendt · Oct 01, 2010, 11:15 AM // 11:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saxxon Askanius

That's just what i wanted to point out. I didn't say I'd be against 7 heroes, but you may scratch off the Guild in the name then...

Sure, I aknowledge your point.

Nowadays tough, people have their own group of close friends/guildies/allies, or rather group up only when they really have to, and this usually doesn't lead to anything but occasional aggregation out of interest.

For the former group, nothing's gonna change. The latter will still play solo and group up only when they feel like having some company. So, what?

fireflyry · Oct 01, 2010, 12:23 PM // 12:23

Meh....to little to late imo

In saying thanks for making the effort Anet but seriously...making promises to Dervish and Paragon.

Now.

lolz.

Cuilan · Oct 01, 2010, 12:41 PM // 12:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ellix Cantero

I'm relatively certain that anyone who plays PvE at all will vote yes to that question.

Don't be too sure, as I voted no. There will likely be many others, too.

fireflyry · Oct 01, 2010, 01:01 PM // 13:01

7 heroes?

Bad idea is bad idea.

That will cheapen every title, guild, player, item, etc in the game.If they did such a thing they choose to really laugh at people that are passionate about this game and have played for hundreds, if not thousands, of hours to attain in-game reward(s).

You can't do that in an mmo.

Mintha Syl · Oct 01, 2010, 02:10 PM // 14:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saxxon Askanius

That's just what i wanted to point out. I didn't say I'd be against 7 heroes, but you may scratch off the Guild in the name then...

Wrong. Guild wars name is about lore guilds, not player guilds.

Having 7 heroes will not make more people play alone, a hero will never be like a human on all sides. You can fully costumise your party with heroes unlike with henchman, but apart from the obvious cons and pve skills (not to count when you have to take bundle items) theme I dare you to chat with a hero or something like that. Either with h/h or heroes only you're alone.

So, people who likes company will always look for it, people who doesn't (or for whatever reason needs to do things by himself) already goes alone.

I personally enjoy the company, but hate random company, and you can't really always have friends with you, so I end up h/hing almost everything. At least with 7 heroes I wouldn't have to struggle to choose 3 fitting heroes and drop in 4 random henchies avalaible at the outpost (how many times an henchie is bad for that specific thing you ahve to do but you take it anyway beacuse just there's nothing else/better. avalaible?).

Crystal Of Winter · Oct 01, 2010, 02:14 PM // 14:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by fireflyry

people that are passionate about this game and have played for hundreds, if not thousands, of hours to attain in-game reward(s).

You can't do that in an mmo.

It happens in EVERY mmo, they increase drops/xp rates as time goes on to make it more appealing to new players, thus generating more money.

edit: 100% agree with Mintha.

snaek · Oct 01, 2010, 02:23 PM // 14:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by ayuhmii shanbwa

i know many people who would play the game more often if we can use 7 heroes, then i could see some friends back again

except that they're coming back to play with their heroes, not to play with you; so i'm not sure what's so great about that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mintha syl

So, people who likes company will always look for it, people who doesn't (or for whatever reason needs to do things by himself) already goes alone.

i wish it were that simple, but there are numerous factors that may hinder someone's ability to pug even if they really want to. 7 heroes would contribute to that hindrance. you even admitted it yourself that you "end up h/hing almost everything" despite the fact that you "enjoy the company."

Karate Jesus · Oct 01, 2010, 02:29 PM // 14:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crystal Of Winter

It happens in EVERY mmo, they increase drops/xp rates as time goes on to make it more appealing to new players, thus generating more money.

^ it's true. And as the game gets older and has less and less players, Anet will need a way to continue to appeal to new players who want to pick up GW1 before GW2. Without a strong player base, those people won't want to pick up either game.

And if people want to group, they can always still do it. It's not like having the option of using 7 heroes forces anyone to do so. It's been said a thousand times over, but I'll reiterate it - Those who want to PUG or PvP with groups will. Those who don't want to just won't.

There are PvP'ers who love to group, so they play team arenas. There are those who don't, so they RA. There are PvE'ers who love to group, so they PUG. There are those who don't, so they H/H. Nothing is going to change that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

i wish it were that simple, but there are numerous factors that may hinder someone's ability to pug even if they really want to. 7 heroes would contribute to that hindrance. you even admitted it yourself that you "end up h/hing almost everything" despite the fact that you "enjoy the company."

Or, from the other perspective, it could be a hindrance not to have 7 heroes. Case and point, the WiK. They essentially forced you to have a group for the final quest (especially if you wanted to do HM), and it pissed a lot of people off.

Some people loved being forced to group, and some people hated it. That won't change with more heroes.

Personally, I will always group for PvP (because I love it) and I will always H/H for PvE (because it's annoying). Period. Whether I get 7 heroes or not won't matter.

snaek · Oct 01, 2010, 02:43 PM // 14:43

^again, i wish it worked like that, but it doesn't. if gw had some sort of "drop in and play" gameplay or a traditional non-instanced mmo world, we wouldn't have such a problem; however, in order to find a group you have to be in a very specific outpost at a very specific time. most people aren't going to wait around doing nothing just to find a group. they'll do a quick check to see if anyone's pugging, maybe even wait around for 10-15 minutes, and then when no one shows up they say eff it and put on their heroes.

yes, we have an option and that can be a great thing. the bad thing is when people start to settle for the 2nd option because the 1st one is unavailable. the more people that settle for heroes despite wanting to pug, the less people there will be to pug. i mean on paper, it may seem to work just fine, but once you factor in human nature and all those variables it doesn't quite look so picture perfect anymore.

also you mention team arenas, but that is the perfect example of the "ghost town syndrome". people stay away from it not because they don't want to play ta or that they hate ta, rather simply because its a ghost town.

Daesu · Oct 01, 2010, 02:46 PM // 14:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

- 8 humans-party are not the norm. You're comparing what would become an everyday possibility (1 human + 7 heroes) with a rare occurrence for a lot of players.
- SCs again are not the norm. SCs are rather broken by themselves and out of context here. Time records mean jack, most of the people asking for 7-heroes have regular PvE in mind (like WiK/GW:B stuff, dungeons and elite-areas). People off course won't be using heroes to make Speed Clears faster. If that was about it, well then, I'd regret sustaining this idea and agree with people saying it would be nocive for aggregation and for whatever's left of the "economy".
- Cons + PvE skills again are not the norm. A lot of players in the need for 7 heroes just don't bother about cons and want a relaxed and more efficient way to play solo, without relying on henchmen or PuGs, because they either don't have a very active guild or friends, or simply because they have different game needs. In this scenario, the game will indeed be made "easier" (more accessible) and move people away from aggregation. That's fine with me tough.
- Most of the cons available in game go on heroes too.
- Comparing the most efficient (and borderline overpowered) setup among the current PvE playstyles - which is a full party of 8 humans using cons + PvE skills to speed-clear elite areas - to 7 heroes parties playing random PvE easier than before is like saying that speeding in a Lotus won't have your licence suspended because your car is not a Ferrari and can't hit 1-100 in less than 4 seconds. SCs shouldn't even exist IMO, so comparing anything to something that broken makes no sense.

It is the norm in toughest areas of the game and the toughest areas require the strongest team setup. The strongest team setup happens to be a full team of 8 human players.

Use your brain and think about it, if heroes are stronger and clears the high end areas faster, most people would be buddying up and using 6 heroes instead of LFG for a longer time to get a full human party.

Lanier · Oct 01, 2010, 02:58 PM // 14:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

if heroes are stronger and clears the high end areas faster, most people would be buddying up and using 6 heroes instead of LFG for a longer time to get a full human party.

QFT

Heroes are NOT currently more efficient than humans, and the above quote is evidence of this. If they were, then people would be grouping up two at a time and going with six heroes. The fact that that isn't possible (due to limitations on the hero AI and PvE skills) proves that human players have enough of an advantage over heroes to be "better" than them. Plus, heroes generally suck at energy management way more than humans do... even if you give them broken e-management sources like soul reaping or tease.

Mintha Syl · Oct 01, 2010, 03:38 PM // 15:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

you even admitted it yourself that you "end up h/hing almost everything" despite the fact that you "enjoy the company."

Either you didn't understand or read at all what I wrote.
I enjoy the company of selected persons, not of anyone that comes at hand. Obviously people doesn't live in GW, and even when on one could be busy on something while I may want to do something else in that moment, etc etc.
7 heroes would not make these people want to play less with me and more with h/h, things wouldn't change at all in social regards.

And I think the same would be for guild/alliance/friendlist whatever groups.
If for you a PUG, which is usually a group of people who have no interest in enjoying each other's company but only in getting a task accomplished, often curse each other, ragequit and chances are great that they never want to meet each other again, is a great social group that would be a great loss if being rarer...than I'm at complete loss.

Gill Halendt · Oct 01, 2010, 03:47 PM // 15:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Use your brain and think about it, if heroes are stronger and clears the high end areas faster, most people would be buddying up and using 6 heroes instead of LFG for a longer time to get a full human party.

- Don't put words into my mouth: who ever said that heroes are "stronger" than humans? We were discussing wether 7-heroes would actually make the game easier when compared to H/H setups, and push PuGs toward solo groups. Well, that's quite certainly a fact: heroes, altough not as efficient as a human, are a huge improvement over henchmen, and quite surely a lot of players currently PuGging will rather move to full heroes setups. People tough kept replying that the impact of 7-heroes would be irrelevant because 8-human-parties - a rare occurrence, or people wouldn't need to spend "longer time LFG" - are much stronger than a 7-heroes-parties. I still don't see how this contradicts the thesis above tough, nor the relevance it may have in this discussion.
- Again, 7-heroes are targeted at a much wider audience than those currently making 8-humans parties. Most of those will keep grouping and LFG, while people currently playing H/H will likely move frome hencies to heroes.

Daesu · Oct 01, 2010, 04:01 PM // 16:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

- Don't put words into my mouth: who ever said that heroes are "stronger" than humans? We were discussing wether 7-heroes would actually make the game easier when compared to H/H setups, and push PuGs toward solo groups. Well, that's quite certainly a fact: heroes, altough not as efficient as a human, are a huge improvement over henchmen, and quite surely a lot of players currently PuGging will rather move to full heroes setups. People tough kept replying that the impact of 7-heroes would be irrelevant because 8-human-parties - a rare occurrence, or people wouldn't need to spend "longer time LFG" - are much stronger than a 7-heroes-parties. I still don't see how this contradicts the thesis above tough, nor the relevance it may have in this discussion.

That is not what I read in the previous page:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

Anything 8 humans can do, 1 human with his own 7 heroes can do almost as good. 1:8 proportion. That's not illogical at all.

Heroes are FAR inferior to the capabilities of a human player with cons+pve skills. Not even close.

snaek · Oct 01, 2010, 04:36 PM // 16:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mintha Syl

Either you didn't understand or read at all what I wrote.
I enjoy the company of selected persons, not of anyone that comes at hand. Obviously people doesn't live in GW, and even when on one could be busy on something while I may want to do something else in that moment, etc etc.
7 heroes would not make these people want to play less with me and more with h/h, things wouldn't change at all in social regards. .

yes, i understood that you specifically said friends and not pugs, but i was implying that the same can be applied to pugs as well. i.e. "i enjoy the company of friends, but have to resort to using h/h because of xxx reason" was stated and "i enjoy the company of strangers, but have to resort to using h/h because of yyy reason" can also be stated.

Quote:

And I think the same would be for guild/alliance/friendlist whatever groups.
If for you a PUG, which is usually a group of people who have no interest in enjoying each other's company but only in getting a task accomplished, often curse each other, ragequit and chances are great that they never want to meet each other again, is a great social group that would be a great loss if being rarer...than I'm at complete loss

i don't think a pug is like that at all. quite frankly, if thats your attitude regarding pugs then its no wonder why you would not enjoy them.

AngelWJedi · Oct 01, 2010, 04:46 PM // 16:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mintha Syl

Wrong. Guild wars name is about lore guilds, not player guilds.

Having 7 heroes will not make more people play alone, a hero will never be like a human on all sides. You can fully costumise your party with heroes unlike with henchman, but apart from the obvious cons and pve skills (not to count when you have to take bundle items) theme I dare you to chat with a hero or something like that. Either with h/h or heroes only you're alone.

So, people who likes company will always look for it, people who doesn't (or for whatever reason needs to do things by himself) already goes alone.

I personally enjoy the company, but hate random company, and you can't really always have friends with you, so I end up h/hing almost everything. At least with 7 heroes I wouldn't have to struggle to choose 3 fitting heroes and drop in 4 random henchies avalaible at the outpost (how many times an henchie is bad for that specific thing you ahve to do but you take it anyway beacuse just there's nothing else/better. avalaible?).

this thread wins. most people call me a loner. and i dont mind that. but when i wanna play with humans i do and when i want to be alone i use h/h. having 7 heros wont stop people playing with other people. just go to each days zmiss/zboss and you will a lot of people trying to get into a pug. having 7 heros will just allow us to take a non mob running henchies when we want to, that means you mr. i love to heal minions mhenlo!

edit: it will also allow us people who got survivor the old fashion way be able to do it easly with monks we can micro. xD rl people tend to hate us survivors. xD

Crystal Of Winter · Oct 01, 2010, 04:58 PM // 16:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

i don't think a pug is like that at all. quite frankly, if thats your attitude regarding pugs then its no wonder why you would not enjoy them.

So far most pugs I've been in have always been like that, might be my luck though but out of all the mmos I've played pugging in this is brutal.

Ayuhmii Shanbwa · Oct 01, 2010, 07:22 PM // 19:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

except that they're coming back to play with their heroes, not to play with you; so i'm not sure what's so great about that.

ehm, whem people come back and enjoy a game like they did before, i bet they will join with me again, even if they wanna use more heroes, i couold bring none, and they can use 6 of theirs

so if gw has more people, the ones who joined/helped me back then, will surely join again, even if they, as i said, use 6 of their heroes and me
i'll calculate:
- the one who came back (1)
- 6 of his heroes (6)
- me (1)

1+6+1= 8
meaning that i dont take heroes, and we wont take hench, and they still can use more than 3 heroes

and in case they wont come back, i can use 7 of my own

not only does it affect people doing more in GW like dungeons and such, but it also gives us something new, like trying to make more builds for the whole team, making a whole own team will make certain people, like myself, happy

as for me, i wouldnt use pvx, except for the builds i got from someone called discord
i'd like to try to make more, and take discord with me cuz it works well, and can assist me while i try making more builds
as discord is both offensive and defensive

if people dont understand why discord can help:

discord can keep me alive mostly, so i can try other builds with 4 other heroes

the fact that people keep using pvx will stay, it wont change much if we have 7 heroes, except that they can copy more builds
another fact is that people who play alone, stay alone with or without full hero teams... even if heroes wouldn't exist, they would just use henchies

with full hero team they give us the freedom by letting us choose the way we wanna play

i would still join people who arent gone from gw yet (as yet another friend will leave soon, cuz he got bored) and if noone is available, or if i wanna make an own team, i just would use 7 heroes, and do stuff like the wanteds and dungeons for fun (as i have no intention to get titles or other things gotten from dungeons, i just wanna have fun)

Roen · Oct 01, 2010, 07:59 PM // 19:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crystal Of Winter

So far most pugs I've been in have always been like that, might be my luck though but out of all the mmos I've played pugging in this is brutal.

Same here. I get lucky with PUGs less than 50% of the time. Probably closer to 30%.

Besides, it's really boring to map in and out of co-op mission outposts looking for a group doing HM missions+bonus for guardian titles. And it's more boring camping in one mission for an hour waiting for a group to form.

I prefer playing in 8-live person groups. But most often it's fewer with heroes. A 2p/6h discordway team seems quite effective at lots of missions. Problem with trying to build that solo is: there aren't six necro heroes.

Allowing it, you'd get some new creative 7-hero builds for sure. I'm not against it.

Skye Marin · Oct 01, 2010, 08:55 PM // 20:55

A synopsis:

Full party heroes will make the game more approachable for solo players, allowing more people to do more things.

Pros:

Improves approachability for hard content that can't reasonably be done with H/H.
Improves the issue of empty districts and outposts; PuGs are becoming less common because of a diminishing player base.
Opportunities for creativity in new 7-hero team builds.
May revitalize the player base in preparation for GW2.

Cons:

Even less incentive for PuGs to form.
Will, overall, make the game even easier, decreasing perceived prestige in certain achievements.
Takes development time away from other possible inclusions (Profession updates, PvP, GW:B).

Yeah, this is a pretty big deal. Both sides have some valid points. Anet has a hard decision to make, but I'm sure the greater numbers would be on the 7-heroes camp because many people play solo, and many people want to be more effective at the game to ramp up for GW2. I'm fine with that, and I'll tell you why.

PuGs are bad. Even inside my own guild, there are disconnections, emergencies, lag, and a lack of understanding on how certain builds work, or how to clear areas safely and efficiently at that level. Failing is frustrating. Clearly, high end content is not for them, and likely won't be even with 7 hero parties.

For me though, I would enjoy 7 heroes because it has none of those issues. The fun and social aspects are still there in Vent, Guild Chat, and even some casual PvP. It's a small guild, less than a dozen people, and when nobody else is on, it would give me a greater chance of success to finish the other half of my vanqs in the queue. If I had a team of 8 skilled humans, things would be easier, but there isn't any easy way for me to form such a group, and gauge the competency of all players at the same time. If there was, you'd bet the half deemed incompetent would cry "elitism" and would be really bummed out.

It's true that this will make the game easier, like hundreds of other changes before it. From removing refund points, to PvP skill updates, PvE skills, Heroes, Consumables, and even direct difficulty balances have changed the game forever. That process is never going to stop. If a skill is changed that doesn't in any way increase how frequently it's used, it's a wasted change, and the only way a skill is used more is if it improves. (for example: Illusionary Weaponry)

Many people arguing against full hero parties say that it's interfering with Paragon and Dervish updates, but cannot seem to realize that those too would make the PvE game easier! Psychic Instability, Panic, and FC recharge reduction say hello! Tell me, how has Signet of Spirits affected how you play the game?

Again, I know that developing games is hard (I'm a developer myself). I know there is no way to please everybody, but you can please some people some of the time. If Anet is really worried about the bottom line, then sell hero slots for cash money: 4 for $20, and that will easily pay for more GW:B developers, which would increase interest for the release of GW2.

Finally, I want to say that GW2 is not GW1. Anet has proven that they have learned a lot from the course of GW1 in their manifestos. The truth is, if you feel that you have already played all that GW1 has to offer, I strongly encourage you to play some other game until GW2 arrives. You'll preserve your fond memories without resenting the world for the changes that have proven to be inevitable.

Some people will never be happy. It must suck to be them.