Curse

lutz · Oct 16, 2010, 09:54 AM // 09:54

This is the goal of PvP:
Get more people to play PvP and increase competition, make the metagame better, and have overall skill improve, thus improve the game.
Thus: game gets more fun, and you aren't just beating your head against the same wall every time.

This is the way you achieve this goal:
Get more people to play PvP.

This is the primary way you get more people to play PvP:
Add an incentive to play PvP.

What is a really easy incentive that could be added?
Add a title people need to get to achieve completion of the hall of monuments that involves direct immersion in PvP.

The main goal of PvP is and has always been to get more people to play, increase skill/competition and make the game more fun. Stop assuming otherwise - it's incredible how some people are throwing wild assumptions about PvP when they haven't really experienced much of it.

ilr · Oct 16, 2010, 06:16 PM // 18:16

"required title for HoM"
omg no, plz no, lol...

The Great Eski · Oct 16, 2010, 10:24 PM // 22:24

I was under the impression that the PvP of this game was completely balanced in terms of gear and abilities available to the player. Battles were won due to actual skill rather then out-gearing your opponent.

Any rewards that a PvPer would get from the "Hall of monuments" would be purely aesthetic. What's the point?

snaek · Oct 16, 2010, 10:34 PM // 22:34

^the exact same thing can be applied to pve. so exactly, what's the point...

The Great Eski · Oct 16, 2010, 10:36 PM // 22:36

I asked first.

----------

I suppose the reason that they focused on PvE is because PvE has more options available for earning points.

You can only kill people a number of times before you run out of ways to do it uniquely after all.

ilr · Oct 17, 2010, 12:39 AM // 00:39

uhhh... they didn't actually focus on PvE initially. I was a core PvE'er and the first 2 years of this game were a suckfest for PvE'ers. ...barely was able to play it at all until the PvP'ers got greedy for even more developer focus and then stormed off when they didn't get it, leaving no one else to really pander to except the PvE'ers. ...which they did. But yeah, originally there used to be HUGE tournaments, expensive prizes, and a hell lotta respect for the top guilds...

Now days there's match rigging & other shenanigans, and ladder finalists sometimes troll the final matches just to protest
(demonstrate how butthurt the PvP community is at Anet).

Siraena Vairidean · Oct 17, 2010, 04:31 AM // 04:31

I failed to realize it at first, but now it's clear. This thread is just feeding assumptions that certain people's over-inflated egos won't get their fill from GW2.

Swahnee · Oct 17, 2010, 08:37 AM // 08:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grimhild The Queen

I failed to realize it at first, but now it's clear. This thread is just feeding assumptions that certain people's over-inflated egos won't get their fill from GW2.

Also in the other thread in Sardelac now nuked someone said that this new PvP-care (or how do you want to call it) in this forum is caused by people in fear of not being able to get their 50/50.

But what's difficult in understanding that there's no PvP requirement in HoM at all? That label saying "1 pvp statue" doesn't mean what you think it means, since you can earn it without stepping foot into the organized pvp, thanks to the zaishen title, and the max number of statues accepted is 40, which can all be obtained through PvE.

And, for the record, i'm totally against using PvE titles (because HoM and GW2 HoM rewards are all PvE rewards) to incentive people to play PvP. Imho, people who would like to do PvP should be given the chance to, and people who aren't interested in it (i mean really uninterested, not those driven away by social issues or personal unwillingness of trying) shouldn't be forced. What kind of PvP would it be if it was full of people not liking it, doing it only for the title?

fowlero · Oct 17, 2010, 09:51 AM // 09:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swahnee

What kind of PvP would it be if it was full of people not liking it, doing it only for the title?

Heroes Ascent.

Siraena Vairidean · Oct 17, 2010, 11:09 AM // 11:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swahnee

Also in the other thread in Sardelac now nuked someone said that this new PvP-care (or how do you want to call it) in this forum is caused by people in fear of not being able to get their 50/50.

But what's difficult in understanding that there's no PvP requirement in HoM at all? That label saying "1 pvp statue" doesn't mean what you think it means, since you can earn it without stepping foot into the organized pvp, thanks to the zaishen title, and the max number of statues accepted is 40, which can all be obtained through PvE.

And, for the record, i'm totally against using PvE titles (because HoM and GW2 HoM rewards are all PvE rewards) to incentive people to play PvP. Imho, people who would like to do PvP should be given the chance to, and people who aren't interested in it (i mean really uninterested, not those driven away by social issues or personal unwillingness of trying) shouldn't be forced. What kind of PvP would it be if it was full of people not liking it, doing it only for the title?

You don't have to like it, but that doesn't mean you should oppose it.

Whatever happen to just enjoying the game for what it is? You got your kicks while playing PvP. You set your goals and accomplished them. Now you want your accomplishments to be rewarded? So now you're suggesting that the game should work for you. Well, that's not how it works.

The game is what it is. You make up your own enjoyment from it. So when something takes place that gives more to players who are doing what you're not, doesn't mean you're loosing anything; especially in this case.

I could give you thousands of instances in the game that could be categorized as "not fair". I won't because I appreciate the game based on my own goals I had set.

*lemming* · Oct 17, 2010, 11:24 AM // 11:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grimhild The Queen

You don't have to like it, but that doesn't mean you should oppose it.

wat

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grimhild The Queen

Whatever happen to just enjoying the game for what it is? You got your kicks while playing PvP. You set your goals and accomplished them. Now you want your accomplishments to be rewarded? So now you're suggesting that the game should work for you. Well, that's not how it works.

Your contempt towards everyone expressing support for PvP in this thread contradicts your point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grimhild The Queen

I could give you thousands of instances in the game that could be categorized as "not fair". I won't because I appreciate the game based on my own goals I had set.

If the HoM required Champion, Hero, Commander, and Gladiator monuments for completion, would you have not decried it as being "not fair?"

Gill Halendt · Oct 17, 2010, 11:41 AM // 11:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

If the HoM required Champion, Hero, Commander, and Gladiator monuments for completion, would you have not decried it as being "not fair?"

There's no specific requirement for any PvE titles. No PvE title gives any particular bonus required to reach 50/50, but PvP titles do. Other than that, all you have to do is to fill it with 40 staues, be it PvE, PvP, joke titles, elite areas...

So, still, I'd like to know what's so special about PvP to get a special bonus in the HoM at all. The requirement for a PvP title shouldn't exist at all, just like it doesn't for PvE.

*lemming* · Oct 17, 2010, 11:56 AM // 11:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

There's no specific requirement for any PvE titles. No PvE title gives any particular bonus required to reach 50/50, but PvP titles do. Other than that, all you have to do is to fill it with 40 staues, be it PvE, PvP, joke titles, elite areas...

So, still, I'd like to know what's so special about PvP to get a special bonus in the HoM at all. The requirement for a PvP title shouldn't exist at all, just like it doesn't for PvE.

What's so special about FoW or Vabbian armor that they give your HoM an extra point?

Just like GWAMM and the HoM requirements in general, the existence of diversified objectives incentivize doing stuff that you wouldn't normally do. It's not so much that it'd be a special title so much as that it would get the completionists to try something out of their comfort zones.

JR · Oct 17, 2010, 01:09 PM // 13:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by lutz

This is the goal of PvP:
Get more people to play PvP and increase competition, make the metagame better, and have overall skill improve, thus improve the game.
Thus: game gets more fun, and you aren't just beating your head against the same wall every time.

This is the way you achieve this goal:
Get more people to play PvP.

This is the primary way you get more people to play PvP:
Add an incentive to play PvP.

What is a really easy incentive that could be added?
Add a title people need to get to achieve completion of the hall of monuments that involves direct immersion in PvP.

So what do they do? Should they go to HA and try to find a PuG? Good luck with that. Are they down to trying to grind win-streaks in RA? Do they have to find a new guild that GvGs and by some miracle rack up champ points?

You can't just twist peoples arm to get them into PvP, and hope somehow they stick. They will end up having a deeply unpleasant experience trying to get anywhere, and it will only cement their dislike for the format. This game is simply not set up for casual PvP.

*Darcy* · Oct 17, 2010, 01:39 PM // 13:39

The players who do PvP do not want new people on their teams, they want ranked players. Without playing you cannot get ranks. This has been a problem for years now. We constantly have questions in Q&A on how to get into PvP. There is no solution to the problem until they do away with ranks which means no PvP titles.

Killed u man · Oct 17, 2010, 01:47 PM // 13:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darcy

The players who do PvP do not want new people on their teams, they want ranked players. Without playing you cannot get ranks. This has been a problem for years now. We constantly have questions in Q&A on how to get into PvP. There is no solution to the problem until they do away with ranks which means no PvP titles.

Same can be said for elite PvE areas, speed clears, and whatnot else. I don't see people crying about those...

Gill Halendt · Oct 17, 2010, 01:58 PM // 13:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

What's so special about FoW or Vabbian armor that they give your HoM an extra point?

You're comparing one-shot objectives like the acquisition of objects in game to playstyles. Pointless.

Anyway, nothing special about either FoW or Vabbian armor, even though they are kinda "special" in that specific context when compared to the other armor sets for their "prestige" status, due to costs. Why is R3 Gladiator more valuable then, say, a Master of the North title on the Honor Monument? PvP being "better" than PvE? Neither requires that much ability with the game, and both can be achieved rather easily thanks to well known gimmicks/exploits (synching and dungeon runs respectively)

Anyway, a PvP title giving a bonus is perfectly fine with me, but then I don't see a reason for equally uncommon pve accomplishments not to give any bonuses.

The same argument about diversified objectives can be turned over: why is it not mandatory to have, say, a Survivor or LDoA? Again, PvP being "special"?

Offering multiple ways of reaching a goal is a good thing, and currently the HoM only offers one. Forcing people into a specific playstyle - expecially in this game, where the PvP world has been hostile and repulsive for years - is not.

Boring and Pointless · Oct 17, 2010, 02:08 PM // 14:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

Same can be said for elite PvE areas, speed clears, and whatnot else. I don't see people crying about those...

That's because these pve carebears think elitism is only bad when it happens in PvP.

Killed u man · Oct 17, 2010, 02:17 PM // 14:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

You're comparing one-shot objectives like the acquisition of objects in game to playstyles. Pointless.

Anyway, nothing special about either FoW or Vabbian armor, even though they are kinda "special" in that specific context when compared to the other armor sets for their "prestige" status, due to costs. Why is R3 Gladiator more valuable then, say, a Master of the North title on the Honor Monument? PvP being "better" than PvE? Neither requires that much ability with the game, and both can be achieved rather easily thanks to well known gimmicks/exploits (synching and dungeon runs respectively)

Anyway, a PvP title giving a bonus is perfectly fine with me, but then I don't see a reason for equally uncommon pve accomplishments not to give any bonuses.

The same argument about diversified objectives can be turned over: why is it not mandatory to have, say, a Survivor or LDoA? Again, PvP being "special"?

Offering multiple ways of reaching a goal is a good thing, and currently the HoM only offers one. Forcing people into a specific playstyle - expecially in this game, where the PvP world has been hostile and repulsive for years - is not.

You're arguing that PvE and PvP are on the same "skill-level"?

Are we really going to have to go over this that PvP is infinite times more harder than PvE for the obvious reason that PvE is nothing more than exploiting the flaws in the AI, and rolling your head over the keyboard.

Even UW SC's and such can hardly be concidered hard in the "challenging" meaning of the word. PvE is nothing more than repeating the same thing over and over again.

And what you said about PvP is definatly true though, but you're making an unfair comparison. Players ruined PvP, but it worked by design. It was the fact that PvE'ers swarmed PvP, not to play competitively, but rather to farm titles, that PvP become such a despicable place.

What ruined PvP was that same mentality which is PvE: Farm, repeat, farm, repeat.

I hope this doesn't get mistaken for an anti-PvE post, which it isn't. I love playing PvE, I probably play it more than PvP nowadays, but saying PvP is on the same skill level as PvE is complete bs.

I don't care too much about the PvE side of HoM, as I've pretty much got all titles and achievements in the bag (almost), but it saddens me to see PvP got reduced to nothing, when it still is (even today when terrible people roam freely across the PvP lands) the bigger achievement to be made.

I think all PvP titles should have been represented in the HoM (with the exception of commander, as it is unachieveable for many players).

Gill Halendt · Oct 17, 2010, 02:37 PM // 14:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

You're arguing that PvE and PvP are on the same "skill-level"?

No. Theoretically, they are not but...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

What ruined PvP was that same mentality which is PvE: Farm, repeat, farm, repeat.

You kinda answered yourself.

I don't see that much of a difference between AI exploitation and synching, skill abuses, RR-day and such. Except that, AI exploitation is rather common in non-competitive games (come on, most RPGs and MMOs are just like GW in this sense). PvP title farming through abuses is so unsportly and offensive toward other players that it got me quitting with both HA and TA long ago.

Guild Wars is a rather simplistic game that doesn't require that much skill at pretty much any level, not even in PvP. PvP requiring fracionally more skill than PvE doesn't make it any special to me. PvE and PvP are two utterly different things with so little in common I wonder why people keep comparing them.