Curse

Rushin Roulette · Oct 14, 2010, 04:27 AM // 04:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadar

I think a lot of pve guys in this thread don't understand how empty pvp arenas are. Here, this screenshot is maybe a week old:

That's 5 hours of NOONE playing! Any new players are welcome!

Sure, the game is old, but if Anet actually made an effort to promote pvp like they had a chance with this HoM calculator maybe someone new would try it and like it.
And to anyone mentioning elitism/whatever, that's just an excuse for being too lazy to form your own guilds/groups with people of equal (in)experience. All you need to suceed in pvp are players that are willing to put in the time and effort, to listen and learn from mistakes as a team. And not give up at the first dump in the road!

Im afraid you bought up the 2 points why most PvEers wont even consider going anywhere near PvP domain unless its their own GH or the Menagerie/Zquest flags in GtoB.

1. Elitism. You might say that its due to players being too lazy, but I say its because players had bad experiences with PvP while it was popular. No one would even consider taking a PvP noob into their group no matter what back then. Any groups you got into lost 95% of the time against said Elitists and broke up shortly after under heavy flaming as to how everyone can be so incompetent. Forming a group of inexperienced players wont get anyone anywhere.

The only way to actually learn how to win and set up a good group is if experienced players actually helped the noobs into their own groups and showed them how to win. But whats the chance that this will ever realistically happen (and Im not talking about the lone good Samaritan here and there. I mean Everyone helps out and comes down from their Elitist high horse)? Theonly thign a bad group can learn is how to loose, and thats not really very rewarding is it? The way it was and still seems to be is that Rank is the most important thing in PvP. If you dont have it, then go away you PvE scrub

2. Empty PvP areas. If you want PvEers to play PvP, then they have to see that they are actually able to find groups in the first place. They turn up in an empty district and go away again because there is no point in actually waiting around bored in a District with nothing happening, you cam do that any time in a Vanquished area of your choice.

*lemming* · Oct 14, 2010, 05:12 AM // 05:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Star_Jewel

Huh?

I hope I'm just tired and not reading this right. What does gender have to do with it?

It's easier for females to get a leg up in the pvp world, even if they don't show tits.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Markus Clouser

Now, look from outside the box. PvP = mindless killing w/o much storyline (not saying that pvpers are mindless!). Kinda like a deathmatch, team deathmactch etc in some FPS games. Gladiatorial pits with no story.

That's not terribly relevant. Even for quite a few PvEers, the storyline is completely incidental.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rushin Roulette

The only way to actually learn how to win and set up a good group is if experienced players actually helped the noobs into their own groups and showed them how to win. But whats the chance that this will ever realistically happen (and Im not talking about the lone good Samaritan here and there. I mean Everyone helps out and comes down from their Elitist high horse)? Theonly thign a bad group can learn is how to loose, and thats not really very rewarding is it? The way it was and still seems to be is that Rank is the most important thing in PvP. If you dont have it, then go away you PvE scrub

Getting into PvP relies a bit on getting a lucky break for most people. Your job is to position yourself to take best advantage of them. Watch obs mode, ask experienced players for advice, find low-ranked guilds to play with. There's a lot of stuff that individuals can do to get in if they want to put the effort in, instead of complaining about how their hands aren't being held.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rushin Roulette

2. Empty PvP areas. If you want PvEers to play PvP, then they have to see that they are actually able to find groups in the first place. They turn up in an empty district and go away again because there is no point in actually waiting around bored in a District with nothing happening, you cam do that any time in a Vanquished area of your choice.

At this current point in time, this is sadly the case. There was a time when it wasn't, though.

Just Sai · Oct 14, 2010, 05:28 AM // 05:28

guild wars is a big place
there's a lot of game out there and half those guys that get refused high level pvp groups absolutely pwn at it

EPO Bot · Oct 14, 2010, 07:07 AM // 07:07

I suggest a random arena with more players or even random HA. It's way easyer to play pvp if you can join a game whenever you want without the obstacle of other players who WILL keep you from practicing because you lack rank.

HA would be more fun if it hadn't that invisible sign saing: "No noobs allowed"

Fortunately it seems like GW2 will give you way more freedom when it comes to that.

Grotesque · Oct 14, 2010, 07:09 AM // 07:09

Never understend why pvers complain about rank discrimination and that leet pvpers don't want to play with them. Doesn't it obvious that good players want to play with good players?
I myself enjoy both pve and pvp. The place where i found how efficiency can be weapon swaping was various speed clears. Mean that while plaing mostly pve I realized how different aspects of the game works and then move to pvp with some friends

It is how mostly pvpers become pvpers, right? Of corse in the biggining u get owned and it is not easy to find people to play with. But it was fun.
Play for fun not for titles or some cosmetic reward in gw2...And why force people to play pvp via some stupid titles? It is game, it's purpose to make people happy^^ I don't need another work. If zaishen title wasn't count as pvp pvers just be forsed to play some pvp for mounth of so, and most of them who doesn't enjoy it before will not after. And if u a pvper that means u either don't care about titles or easy can do 30/50.
sorry for baaad english

UnChosen · Oct 14, 2010, 08:11 AM // 08:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grotesque

Never understend why pvers complain about rank discrimination and that leet pvpers don't want to play with them. Doesn't it obvious that good players want to play with good players?
I myself enjoy both pve and pvp. The place where i found how efficiency can be weapon swaping was various speed clears. Mean that while plaing mostly pve I realized how different aspects of the game works and then move to pvp with some friends

It is how mostly pvpers become pvpers, right? Of corse in the biggining u get owned and it is not easy to find people to play with. But it was fun.
Play for fun not for titles or some cosmetic reward in gw2...And why force people to play pvp via some stupid titles? It is game, it's purpose to make people happy^^ I don't need another work. If zaishen title wasn't count as pvp pvers just be forsed to play some pvp for mounth of so, and most of them who doesn't enjoy it before will not after. And if u a pvper that means u either don't care about titles or easy can do 30/50.
sorry for baaad english

A bit off topic...but the rank system wouldn't be much of a problem if GW just do what many other PvP game does...a ladder system with automatic rank matching. Spending hours forming a lower ranked group just to get rolled in 30 seconds is the most stupid/unfair thing about the rank system. Thankfully I started my main account right at the beginning when everyone is rank 0...

To Chicken To Die · Oct 14, 2010, 08:38 AM // 08:38

I love seeing how people complain how hard it is to make your PvP rank, especially Hero while it isn't. It reflects only your laziness and bad motivations to actualy do something about it. Even when it was populair in the old days and even now it's plain easy.

Grotesque · Oct 14, 2010, 08:39 AM // 08:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

a ladder system with automatic rank matching.

Yeah that would be great thing. But it was somehow compensate when there was more active players. Gvg have some automatic rank matching (does it?) but with less players active my casual gvg guild often meet some top playes and we get owned by them

But all this fights with better players than we are make us better, we learn some new things. If u want to get better fight with somebody better than u. Just don't take looses too srs.

I want to say that force pvers to play pvp wouldn't change situation, some easy build and meta shifts can. I don't like build like sway or bbway, but some people are, and think that this kind of build are good chance to new players start pvp. I myself with my old pve guild do our first ha points playing lichway, was fun^^

JR · Oct 14, 2010, 10:00 AM // 10:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karate Jesus

So, wait...we haven't heard much about PvP in GW2 which (in your opinion) means that I shouldn't discount it, yet you're allowed to claim that it will be better on the same bases?

Wording, my good friend. I said 'I am entirely confident that it will be better'. I did not say 'it will be better'. I have faith in ArenaNet, not blind faith.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karate Jesus

How so? Like you said, we've heard little-to-nothing about it, so that would logically guide someone to reach the conclusion that it's not a primary focus of the game.

We may have heard little, but what we have heard gives all the right indications that they are taking competitive PvP seriously. In a few months time they will do a couple of blog posts on PvP, and people will be blown away. I'd put serious money on that happening.

They aren't going to focus their marketing on PvP right now, because they are still in the process of tying down their biggest market - those strictly interested in the PvE. You start talking about competitive play when they still have fundamental questions about their side of the game and you will lose their attention.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karate Jesus

The formats they've described alone are not well-built for competitive play in an MMO, although I'd love to be proven wrong.

First of all, there really is no such thing as 'competitive play in an MMO', other than Guild Wars 1, so that's a poor comparison.

Secondly, 6v6 is a far better size for competitive teams, and the drop-in/drop-out formats are inspired by pubbing in FPS games - a genre known for being highly competitive. Everything they have described so far sounds well thought out, and designed for a competitive game.

Keep in mind that a competitive game can't survive without casual formats to foster casual players. This is another major problem that Guild Wars had, which Guild Wars 2 shouldn't. While something like the drop-in/drop-out format may not appeal to you, it is vital to keeping a steady stream of people becoming interested in PvP and moving up through the game.

Even at it's strongest point, there was a ridiculous amount of recycling of players at the top of the ladder.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Missing HB

Lol , well i'm sorry but last updates especially in pvp looked like they had no time to invest in it and that they didn't even play it . I can think of henchman contest , Hb/TA delete and some recent updates in codex arenas. Was their any logic in those ???
So , if they never ever cared of pvp , they should just had let it be as it was , 6v6 formats , 1 format whenyou're alone , etc ... . Making all areas even harder to play ( i mean hard to form and find team ) was pro solution for sure

Capabilities of the Guild Wars 2 team >>>>> Capabilities of the Guild Wars Live team, talking strictly manpower. Guild Wars 2 also has way better development tools, designed to ease the workload of things like skill balances.

I agree that the last two years have left a pretty poor impression of how seriously ArenaNet takes PvP, but I don't think it's one that accurately translates over to Guild Wars 2. I hope not, at least.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iuris

YOu got it wrong: the players have steered Anet away from PvP to PvE. Anet just found that their audience didn't want PvP as much and went for PvE.

If that was the case, why did we get skill unlock packs, observer mode, world championships, tournaments, automated tournaments, improved PvP rewards, enhanced PvP character creation, PvE/PvP split, codex arena.... The list goes on.

At release PvP was shabby as hell, and PvP centric guilds left in droves because of the unlock grind and poor support for competitive play. ArenaNet has worked hard on that since, and by 2008 had fostered a reasonably healthy and solid PvP community, with a decent level of support.

Had those competitive improvements been implemented at release, or close to release, who knows what kind of a landscape we could be looking at now? I think it would be very, very different.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vazze

PvP is not played for "the sake of playing" it. Players still need to feel rewarded. Pvpers not having their own "connect" does show what we can expect from GW2.

Competitive PvP is played for the sake of winning. The thrill of victory, the joy of playing with a coordinated and tight-nit team. A competitive player needs nothing else. They certainly don't need shiny PvE stuff.

The promise of any significant improvement that benefits competition will far outweigh any snazzy pistols, amusing mini-pets, or trivial titles.

Missing HB · Oct 14, 2010, 10:17 AM // 10:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by To Chicken To Die

I love seeing how people complain how hard it is to make your PvP rank, especially Hero while it isn't. It reflects only your laziness and bad motivations to actualy do something about it. Even when it was populair in the old days and even now it's plain easy.

I agree , but this is as a high ranked guy. Just think for someone who never ever went to HA before . Considering the number of teams , the number of good teams ( 3/4 of teams playing ) , do you believe that inexped team will have much chance ???

To Chicken To Die · Oct 14, 2010, 10:30 AM // 10:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Missing HB

I agree , but this is as a high ranked guy. Just think for someone who never ever went to HA before . Considering the number of teams , the number of good teams ( 3/4 of teams playing ) , do you believe that inexped team will have much chance ???

I don't know bout the games you play but in all games I played about 80% of what I do will never be perfect or even good enough as exp. people when I am new. Joining as a new player and expecting to be the best (because it's a competitive game) is simply ignorant. Only if your hero rank would have been giving you extra dmg/heal would be unfair. If your new you supposed to gain exp and such therefore Zaichen Elite etc. Going into HA making a group and expecting to hold the halls for a number of consecutive wins slaughter off r14+ teams is just ignorant.

Maybe your forgetting all those "Good" teams had to take the same path and surprisingly started off with r0 aswell (oki cept account buyers wich were not aloud to speak of) and that those people not only know how to use the skills cus they took effort to read the discription, but can also communicate to make there team a team. If all those new people would stop complaining and took that effort into trying and learning wich can be done on there own in this game they wouldn't be unranked for ever.

ThreatToSociety · Oct 14, 2010, 12:01 PM // 12:01

HA is the only thing close to real PvP in this game ( even though its completely dominated by certain crowds and not easily available to all players). You want rewards for random arena maybe? What a joke. 95% of this game is PvE and 5% PvP, what you expect rewards to be based on ?

Swahnee · Oct 14, 2010, 12:13 PM // 12:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

Competitive PvP is played for the sake of winning. The thrill of victory, the joy of playing with a coordinated and tight-nit team. A competitive player needs nothing else. They certainly don't need shiny PvE stuff.

The promise of any significant improvement that benefits competition will far outweigh any snazzy pistols, amusing mini-pets, or trivial titles.

I think that anybody who has ever played any sport in real life is understanding how true these words are.

I would also add that you can be satisfied even after a loss, if you played a good match against someone who deserved to win. This is because in RL sports you play to grow up. Don't know if this applies to internet gaming too, though.

JR · Oct 14, 2010, 12:24 PM // 12:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThreatToSociety

HA is the only thing close to real PvP in this game

It really, really isn't.

Heroes Ascent has been a fundamentally poor competitive format from day one.

Femmefatal · Oct 14, 2010, 01:09 PM // 13:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malice Black

It's just titles and shitty little rewards, nothing worth having a heart attack over.

Yeah have you seen the crap you are going to get for completing HOM? haha everyone is going to look the same and walk around with the same items. It's just like they are doing in the free version of EQ2 hahah Albeit you don't have to grind forever to get the same stuff in EQ2 like everybody else has. EQ2 puts you on quest after quest to get your gear for your initial stuff. It's not leet and neither will the junk in EQ2 rewards as that free stuff or easy stuff to get never is. Just look at all the bonus items we got for certain preorders? A bunch of crap junk, bout the only good item was that hourglass staff out of all of it.

Femmefatal · Oct 14, 2010, 01:13 PM // 13:13

Quote:

This is because in RL sports you play to grow up.

lmao lol You tell that to Randy Moss, Terrell Owens and Ojocinco hahaha These guys have no intentions of "growing up" because of real life sports. Real life sports is "all about MONEY" and rings and prestige and sticking it in your face and going to DisneyLand.

Iuris · Oct 14, 2010, 01:45 PM // 13:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

If that was the case, why did we get skill unlock packs, observer mode, world championships, tournaments, automated tournaments, improved PvP rewards, enhanced PvP character creation, PvE/PvP split, codex arena.... The list goes on.

At release PvP was shabby as hell, and PvP centric guilds left in droves because of the unlock grind and poor support for competitive play. ArenaNet has worked hard on that since, and by 2008 had fostered a reasonably healthy and solid PvP community, with a decent level of support.

Had those competitive improvements been implemented at release, or close to release, who knows what kind of a landscape we could be looking at now? I think it would be very, very different.

I said that Anet shifted focus from PvP to PvE due to recognized player preference. It doesn't mean that it completely stopped caring or anything.

chuckles79 · Oct 14, 2010, 02:11 PM // 14:11

The intent of GW from the beginning is that players would focus on PvE, but then explore PvP when they get tired of the grind or want to face humans for a change.

I don't think they ever really wanted guilds that do nothing but PvP and nothing but grind faction to own a town.

That's why factions will not be back in GW2 (at least at launch) and it's going to be "world pvp"

Besides, titles and the HoM exist to get people to play PvE and into the storyline again. With them diverting resources from GW2 to GW:B, they want this new content to matter.

I was very tired of the state of things in 2008 when it seemed the entire game revolved around the 2-3% of players who did high end GvG and HB.

Now PvE is going again, I even see people forming NM PUGs again.

TalanRoarer · Oct 14, 2010, 02:15 PM // 14:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Markus Clouser

Now, look from outside the box. PvP = mindless killing w/o much storyline (not saying that pvpers are mindless!).

PvE is mindless killing and far easier than PvP.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Markus Clouser

This may upset some PvPers, and I'm sorry if it does because that's not my intention, but PvP, no matter in what you're wrapping it into, it's still man vs man in an arena lacking almost the whole storyline.

No matter what how you look at PvE its man vs Dumb AI. (Or Man + Dumb AI vs Dumb AI.)

doomfodder · Oct 14, 2010, 04:01 PM // 16:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

Competitive PvP is played for the sake of winning. The thrill of victory, the joy of playing with a coordinated and tight-nit team. A competitive player needs nothing else. They certainly don't need shiny PvE stuff.

The promise of any significant improvement that benefits competition will far outweigh any snazzy pistols, amusing mini-pets, or trivial titles.

This quote addresses the heart of the DIFFERENCE between PvE & PvP. Many posters in this thread have noted the observation that PvE is easier (fighting AI).

The underlying premise in PvE is that it's winnable MOST of the time. Gamers don't like to lose & there are fewer losses in PvE than PvP. If you're just breaking into PvP from PvE, then you're going to lose - ALOT. For example, I'm only Glad3 and I find that I regularly lose at least 4 out of 5 RA matches no matter what toon I use or what build I use. Because when you lose in a TEAM game, it's "generally" NOT just YOUR fault, & when you win it's "generally" not just from YOUR play. Like ALL SUCCESSFUL PvP (ie winners) it REQUIRES TEAM play – advance & retreat, attack the weakest enemy, kill the healers, look for tactical advantages on the field, etc... These same techniques are used in PvE as well... BUT, it's not only easier to pull off in PvE, there are other incentives...

Back OT:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Femmefatal

Yeah have you seen the crap you are going to get for completing HOM? haha everyone is going to look the same and walk around with the same items. It's just like they are doing in the free version of EQ2 hahah Albeit you don't have to grind forever to get the same stuff in EQ2 like everybody else has. EQ2 puts you on quest after quest to get your gear for your initial stuff. It's not leet and neither will the junk in EQ2 rewards as that free stuff or easy stuff to get never is. Just look at all the bonus items we got for certain preorders? A bunch of crap junk, bout the only good item was that hourglass staff out of all of it.

Yeah ANET offers what could be construed as valueless items as a reward from HoM... But the point is they ARE offered which CREATES the INCENTIVE for gamers to PvE & to simultaneously avoid PvP (because there is virtually no contribution of PvP to the HoM reward). This is the structure ANET has created & it's presumably intentional - afterall the designers PUT thought into this structure.

ANET could have chosen to use the HoM to create EVEN SOME SMALL incentive to PvP. For example # of points per fame: R1 =1 point, R2 = 2, etc. Of course this could lead to MORE than 50 points in HoM. They could have chosen to implement lots of incentives. They simply chose not to. ANET chose to STEER players into PvE.