Curse

Sytherek · Nov 02, 2010, 02:10 PM // 14:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

But it's not about their builds or how they play. It's about OBEDIENCE. If they don't OBEY, but instead they act on their own, we don't have a party, we have a bunch idiots soloing to their death.

I'm all in favor of talking strategy and deciding on a plan.

But refusing to play with people who won't take your ORDERS? You demand OBEDIENCE?

These are people, not puppies.

So it's YOUR WAY or the highway, eh?

I agree with the frustration of people who just run off and do their own thing. I prefer, however, to TALK to people, ask questions, and consider. It's possible to say "Hey, why don't you bring X instead of Y?" or suggest "Let's go the back way" -- it's called teamwork. But arrogantly spewing orders and demanding obedience? That's just rude.

And if people want to just do their own thing? I politely tell them I'm going back to town, and invite others to group with me. Believe it or not, they usually do, and we go on without the irritant.

If I'm playing with other humans, it's about teamwork. If I want to be a dictator, I run H/H.

MithranArkanere · Nov 02, 2010, 02:56 PM // 14:56

If I wanted people bringing 'that exact build' I would use heroes. I never mess with people's builds the few times I lead. It's more fun when everyone brings what they like and work with that on the fly.

The party leader is the one at the top of the list, and thats the one the rest should follow.
Thats how parties work. One leads, the rest follows.

If they go on their own without naturally following the leader, the problem is them.

So what happens when the leader is bad?
You look for a better one, or become the leader yourself.

But never, EVER, doubt OBEDIENCE. OBEDIENCE leads to happiness. Ask any decent modron.
OBEY!

Daesu · Nov 02, 2010, 03:21 PM // 15:21

Not everyone is cut out for any PUG. Some PUGs are more demanding and some PUGs are not. Some people are more demanding and others are not.

If you take a player who doesn't enjoy being in that PUG and somehow force him to join the PUG due to necessity of accomplishing the mission, it would be disasterous because any small annoyance would set him off.

This could cause him to sabotage the team by leaving or behaving badly mid mission, spreading bad experiences to everyone. This is why heroes should always remain a viable option in any mission.

Emperor Bush · Nov 02, 2010, 03:47 PM // 15:47

I do the z mission 3-4 times a day, almost always with pugs, and I'm almost always the leader. I rarely fail.
My advice: Instead of waiting 20 minutes for a team to accept you, form your own team. Crazy idea, I know, but it works.

Also, if you keep failing these missions, stop blaming all the bad pugs. Take a look in the mirror. The person looking back at you is a bad pug.

A bad pug can ruin the occassional mission. But if this is consistently happening to you, it's probably your fault. Maybe you're running some sucky Enraged Lunge build, or maybe you're running Splinter Barrage for a mission where you won't encounter many (or any) good opportunities to use it.

Hells Fury · Nov 02, 2010, 03:53 PM // 15:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sytherek

What a condescending, elitist, and insulting attitude you have there! You're a perfect example of the kind of player that drives people like me away from human groups, and online games in general.

Ty. U mad?
Nah i wasn't insulting. My was like this (o_o) when i was typing that. You just get the feeling like that when reading from the post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sytherek

GW isn't chess; we don't have to play with identical pieces.

No , but when i pug i don't experiment with builds cause it's not the time , place or right people for it. That's why we have meta. I experiment with builds either solo or with friend.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sytherek

Here's the shocker for folk like you: I can beat the game IN HARD MODE well, quickly, and have fun WITHOUT running your so-called "optimized" "manly" builds. Really. I clear dungeons, roll through missions, and vanquish with groups that would make you shudder. All in Hard Mode.

Good for you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sytherek

So who's the better player -- the one who uses a few cookie-cutter builds, or the one who uses a wide variety of classes and builds?

Define better player moar pls.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sytherek

As for melee heroes, here's what I run on Jora. I watch her skill bar, and she plays it quite well:

Dragon Slash
Sun and Moon Slash
Hamstring
Kneecutter
Deadly Reposte
Remedy Signet
For Great Justice
Watch Yourself

Suit yourself, but there are much better alternatives that that build. I guess you run that build cause it's "fun". It's not amusing to the other pug person who just wants to get things done. And as i said melee heroes have issues with target switching.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sytherek

Splinter is too situational for my taste. It is a waste of a skill slot if enemies don't clump.

I'm guessing you're saying this cause you are casting splinter on yourself. Let hero do that job.

Hope you'll be happy with upcoming 7 heroes. I know i will, despite i pug here and there.

Sytherek · Nov 02, 2010, 04:08 PM // 16:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emperor Bush

I do the z mission 3-4 times a day, almost always with pugs, and I'm almost always the leader. I rarely fail.
My advice: Instead of waiting 20 minutes for a team to accept you, form your own team. Crazy idea, I know, but it works.

Also, if you keep failing these missions, stop blaming all the bad pugs. Take a look in the mirror. The person looking back at you is a bad pug.

A bad pug can ruin the occassional mission. But if this is consistently happening to you, it's probably your fault. Maybe you're running some sucky Enraged Lunge build, or maybe you're running Splinter Barrage for a mission where you won't encounter many (or any) good opportunities to use it.

My, my, what false assumptions you draw!

I don't suppose it occurs to you that I run builds suited to the specific mission at hand? I have quite a few builds saved to disk for each of my characters.

Nor do I fail a lot, even with humans. It runs about 2/3 good, 1/3 bad in PuGs. The bad is just... soooo bad. H/H are never as bad as a bad human group.

And since when is Enraged Lunge "sucky?" It does great spike damage, causes Deep Wound... what's wrong with that? Sure, it doesn't work in every area -- no build does. That's why we can change our skills.

Heck, even PvX wiki has a couple "great" builds based around it.

http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:R/P_..._Spear_Chucker

What is consistent is BAD HUMAN BEHAVIOR, not failure. I'm not the one rage-quitting, or the guy who starts the turtles when we're going the back way, or the gal who wordlessly runs ahead and wonders why she died, or the folk who argue incessantly... Groups fail because of selfish know-it-alls and lazy AFKers -- not bad builds.

Sytherek · Nov 02, 2010, 04:21 PM // 16:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hell Darkblight

Suit yourself, but there are much better alternatives that that build. I guess you run that build cause it's "fun". It's not amusing to the other pug person who just wants to get things done. And as i said melee heroes have issues with target switching.

I'm guessing you're saying this cause you are casting splinter on yourself. Let hero do that job.

I never experiment with builds (mine or heroes) in a PuG. I use builds that have worked very well in the given mission/quest before. And since I almost never take heroes in PuGs, it's a moot issue.

As for getting things done -- What I run DOES get things done, maybe better than what you run. Oh, I'm not interested in speed clears and such, so I guess from that standpoint, I suck. But my hero groups are efficient, killing quickly without anyone dying, thru all hard mode content.

The best PuGs are ones where people get together quick; there's a bit of discussion, and you go. Pick a rounded group, make sure you have the basic bases covered, and just "do it."

Kydd · Nov 02, 2010, 04:46 PM // 16:46

If you pug with the intent of helping others you won't hate it as much. If you "need" something for yourself just do it yourself.

Sytherek · Nov 02, 2010, 04:49 PM // 16:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kydd

If you pug with the intent of helping others you won't hate it as much. If you "need" something for yourself just do it yourself.

Exactly.

............

ZephyLynx · Nov 02, 2010, 05:29 PM // 17:29

I don't know what most of you are smoking, but I find pugging pretty fun. It's not as epic as steam rolling with alliance/guild members, but they are not always available. If you don't want to sit and wait for invites (and possibly fail to bad team composition):

Take the initiative.

I almost always start my own pug group. The key to a successful pug is not build elitism, but rather a balance of roles. In Z Missions, most of the time, it is best to run a balanced team. The teams I normally make consists of damage, mid-line support (damage mitigation/multiplication), and back line support (heal/prot).

Full damage characters usually comes in the form of assassins, warriors, rangers, dervishes. In hard mode, nuking generally sucks, so I avoid them for the most part. Ask people to ping their builds. You might want to avoid taking a tank as tank-and-spank rarely work in general pugging. If I see Defy Pain, I ask the warrior to change to damage. You have a sword/axe/hammer, go stab/slice/bash something.

The mid-line, in my opinion, is probably the most important. Damage from hexes are great in hard mode, since almost all of it is armor ignoring. Damage support in the form of strength of honor, splinter weapon, great dwarf weapon, orders, etc... greatly multiplies the damage done by fighter classes. Again ask people to ping their builds. Don't demand, but suggest that they take such skills. You don't need 8 curses skills on a SS necro. Damage mitigation is also very important. Spirit spamming is great (although not necessary) in a pug for the extra bodies, as well as a minion master/bomber. Again, you don't need 8 minion/death skills, suggest your mm to bring support skills (aegis, condition/hex removal, great dwarf weapon, etc...). Panic mesmers, the imbagon (with actually attack/damage skills), SoS, minions, anyone with enfeebling blood, etc... are just a few example of mid-liners.

The back line is not too important, but still needed for the most part. 2 healing monks (hb/ua) is not that great (what's the point of devoting 10-16 skills on healing?). Get a restoration rit, er prot/infuser, or n/rt healer. Heal/prot hybrids are usually much better to have. Prot spirit is almost a must have in hard mode. 2 monks chaining aegis with damage mitigation from the mid-line means very little damage taken. Suggest condition removal if facing lots of daze or blind. Hell, most of the time, when I monk, I make a party with lots of mid-line support and I can be the only back line support with my hybrid build.

You might want to avoid farming specific builds for general pugging. 100blades + whirlwind is only mediocre at best in hard mode without a cooperating mark of pain. Splinter barrage is only good when you are mobbed like crazy (Vizuna Square). A lot of farming/speed clear builds are good for what they are designed or used in organized groups with communication, but perform less than spectacular in general pugging.

Of course, not always will you succeed. You still get idiots who have no clue what they are doing or just being asses. That is just the nature of playing with random people. But you can greatly reduce that if you manage your group and communicate before entering a mission. Most of the time (about 70 to 80% of the time), I can steam roll through a Z Mission if I initiate and make a balanced pug. If you see a real crappy player (warrior with flare) that won't take heed any suggestion, the kick player button is their for your use. Although a well formed pug can usually carry at least one crappy player through a mission/quest.

Also, with h/h most all builds will work, but some work better than others. You can take 7 henchmen and an empty skill bar and still complete most mission (even on hard mode). However, look at the synergy of skills. Since you can control half of the team's skill bars (yours + 3 heroes), you can greatly increase the efficiency of your team. Guild Wars is a game you play for fun; never forget that, but you might want a little efficiency as well. When you h/h you can run whatever you want, since it affects no one but yourself. But remember that they may be better builds, and when pugging, people what success and efficiency.

tl;dr If you want a successful pug, take the initiative and start/manage your own group. A balance of roles will lead to a successful mission. Don't demand, suggest. Communicate with your group, and as a last resort, the kick player button does exist.

Edit: Fixed a few typos

Winterclaw · Nov 02, 2010, 05:33 PM // 17:33

The only reason I'd pug is in the hopes of finding some of the few non-jerks to add to my friends list.

Roen · Nov 02, 2010, 06:09 PM // 18:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hell Darkblight

I mean just observe the AI behavior of melee heroes. They attack one target. Then you call another target. They go insta retard mode. They bump between foes desperatly trying to get to the called target. After target is dead, you call another. They come first to you (to say hi or w/e i don't get why that's happening) then they go to targeted foe.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/images/e/e..._Commander.png

That button there on the bottom left. The one that looks like a target. It works.

I like Jora. Just because I like her. But if I'm with a group and somebody says, "Get rid of that horrible stupid bitch Jora." (Which has been said exactly like that to me) I don't care. People don't like it, fine. I've been running with Pyre more recently anyway. Just because I like Pyre. I've not done much in NF and have primarily EotN heroes. But it seems like lately I can take on areas with just myself, Pyre, Gwen, and Ogden. Henchies come in handy for specific things occassionally but I've been surprised by how effective myself plus those three heroes have been.

I still like PuGs. I think the best phrase I've read so far in this thread was along the lines of good or bad, H/H is more consistent than humans. So if you want consistency, H/H is best. If you like to gamble, I like the suggestion of spamming "helping noob grp" or whatever. I never thought of that one but am confident it'd get some takers.

Lanier · Nov 02, 2010, 06:15 PM // 18:15

I just don't pug because I dont like people telling me what build to run. If I want to run my IW/pet build on my mesmer, or if I want to run my WoH paragon healer, or if I want to run my Spirit Strength rit, I dont want to group with people who are going to bitch at me for my choice of build (which seems to be the vast majority of random people looking to pug). I like to run my paragon but I cant stand imbagoning. I like to run my rit but spirit spam is boring. Yet people in pugs always want me to run these two roles on those two professions.

Essence Snow · Nov 02, 2010, 06:27 PM // 18:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZephyLynx

I don't know what most of you are smoking, but I find pugging pretty fun. It's not as epic as steam rolling with alliance/guild members, but they are not always available. If you don't want to sit and wait for invites (and possibly fail to bad team composition):

Take the initiative.

I almost always start my own pug group. The key to a successful pug is not build elitism, but rather a balance of roles. In Z Missions, most of the time, it is best to run a balanced team. The teams I normally make consists of damage, mid-line support (damage mitigation/multiplication), and back line support (heal/prot).

Full damage characters usually comes in the form of assassins, warriors, rangers, dervishes. In hard mode, nuking generally sucks, so I avoid them for the most part. Ask people to ping their builds. You might want to avoid taking a tank as tank-and-spank rarely work in general pugging. If I see Defy Pain, I ask the warrior to change to damage. You have a sword/axe/hammer, go stab/slice/bash something.

The mid-line, in my opinion, is probably the most important. Damage from hexes are great in hard mode, since almost all of it is armor ignoring. Damage support in the form of strength of honor, splinter weapon, great dwarf weapon, orders, etc... greatly multiplies the damage done by fighter classes. Again ask people to ping their builds. Don't demand, but suggest that they take such skills. You don't need 8 curses skills on a SS necro. Damage mitigation is also very important. Spirit spamming is great (although not necessary) in a pug for the extra bodies, as well as a minion master/bomber. Again, you don't need 8 minion/death skills, suggest your mm to bring a support skills (aegis, condition/hex removal, great dwarf weapon, etc...). Panic mesmers, the imbagon (with actually attack/damage skills), SoS, minions, anyone with enfeebling blood, etc... are just a few example of mid-liners.

The back line is not too important, but still needed for the most part. 2 healing monks (hb/ua) is not that great (what's the point of devoting 10-16 skills on healing?). Get a restoration rit, er prot/infuser, or n/rt healer. Heal/prot hybrids are usually much better to have. Prot spirit is almost a must have in hard mode. 2 monks chaining aegis with damage mitigation from the mid-line means very little damage taken. Suggest condition removal if facing lots of daze or blind. Hell, most of the time, when I monk, I make a party with lots of mid-line support and I can be the only back line support with my hybrid build.

You might want to avoid farming specific builds for general pugging. 100blades + whirlwind is only mediocre at best in hard mode with out a cooperating mark of pain. Splinter barrage is only good when you are mobbed like crazy (Vizuna Square). A lot of farming/speed clear builds are good for what they are designed or used in organized groups with communication, but perform less than spectacular in general pugging.

Of course, not always will you succeed. You still get idiots who have no clue what they are doing or just being asses. That is just the nature of playing with random people. But you can greatly reduce that if you manage your group and communicate before entering a mission. Most of the time (about 70 to 80% of the time), I can steam roll through a Z Mission if I initiate and make a balanced pug. If you see a real crappy player (warrior with flare) that won't take heed any suggestion, the kick player button is their for your use. Although a well formed pug can usually carry at least one crappy player through a mission/quest.

Also, with h/h most all builds will work, but some work better than others. You can take 7 henchmen and an empty skill bar and skill complete most mission (even on hard mode). However, look at the synergy of skills. Since you can control half of the team's skill bars (yours + 3 heroes), you can greatly increase the efficiency of your team. Guild Wars is a game you play for fun; never forget that, but you might want a little efficiency as well. When you h/h you can run whatever you want, since it affects no one but yourself. But remember that they may be better builds, and when pugging, people what success and efficiency.

tldr; If you want a successful pug, take the initiative and start/manage your own group. A balance of roles will lead to a successful mission. Don't demand, suggest. Communicate with your group, and as a last resort, the kick player button does exist.

Quoted b/c I like this post a lot ^^ and it has many truths to it.

RedStar · Nov 02, 2010, 06:38 PM // 18:38

PuGing to find friends...Most of the people on my ignore list come from PuGs and people that cannot stop themselves to ask for help but don't provide anything.
I like helping people, but when someone tells me "can you help me do X missions ?" and then tells me a few seconds after the start "Well I'm going to go watch a movie, finish it".

I don't care about what build you run in a PuG, as long as you know that it works and you aren't having "fun" experimenting it (if you are asking yourself if your build is good enough, then just see if you don't have too much difficulties with it compared to having a "Meta build").
When doing the Z-missions, you are not there to watch the scenery, you want to do it as quickly as possible so you can do it on another character or resume "normal" gameplay. Of course being an asshole is bad, but not listening to advices and randomly doing things is almost as bad.

The wiki is here to give advices, if you don't want to use it, then accept the advices other people gives you.

LifeInfusion · Nov 02, 2010, 10:43 PM // 22:43

Why PUG? People have PVE skills, cons, and if they are half decent they can split and/or use skills properly. That's about it.

I end up PUGing on my monk most of the time since I hate healing my own heroes/hench.

Inde · Nov 02, 2010, 11:06 PM // 23:06

If you're looking for some groups I have to seriously recommend you hop on the Guru Community mumble. The last few days we've plowed through missions and quests, even full 12 man Urgoz.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/c...t10454699.html

We have plenty of american and euro's there as well. Couldn't hurt to check it out if you guy's are looking for some help.

Voodoo Rage · Nov 02, 2010, 11:18 PM // 23:18

As I have posted before, maybe I have indeed become a bit elitist over the years but there is something about a bad build that just gets under my skin especially when people just resort to the standby "I like it because its fun...". Fun is a relative term, it's one thing to play around with funky builds when you are on your own but when you are screwing up seven other people with a clearly substandard build, "fun" becomes a bit more like "selfishness". I remember when I use to run around with nothing but a touch ranger. It took a horrendous outing with my guild in Destruction's Depths HM for a guild-mate to politely break down for me why my build was lacking and how I could improve it (complete lack of team synergy, low DPS, etc...).

Sytherek · Nov 03, 2010, 01:20 AM // 01:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Voodoo Rage

As I have posted before, maybe I have indeed become a bit elitist over the years but there is something about a bad build that just gets under my skin especially when people just resort to the standby "I like it because its fun...". Fun is a relative term, it's one thing to play around with funky builds when you are on your own but when you are screwing up seven other people with a clearly substandard build, "fun" becomes a bit more like "selfishness". I remember when I use to run around with nothing but a touch ranger. It took a horrendous outing with my guild in Destruction's Depths HM for a guild-mate to politely break down for me why my build was lacking and how I could improve it (complete lack of team synergy, low DPS, etc...).

What, precisely, is "funky" about the ranger builds I posted?

Voodoo Rage · Nov 03, 2010, 02:16 AM // 02:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sytherek

What, precisely, is "funky" about the ranger builds I posted?

I didn't really look that closely at your ranger builds. I'm sure they are fine (rangers are so versatile like that). I'm speaking more in general, really bad builds like a Warrior with Firestorm or 8 way attribute splits.

My only real issue with your team build would be the the warrior hero, mainly due to the AI involved. Personally I think that valuable hero slot could be better used. I've experimented with a variety of melee hero builds and I really haven't seen anything that would override the impact of a caster hero in that place instead. So, yeah, if I PUG'd, I'd probably be fairly insistent that we don't bring along a warrior hero.

My "funky" ranger build that I use almost exclusively is this:

But that's not exactly a "PUG friendly build" as I usually rely heavily on hero protection, SoH, Curses support, condition smiting, etc...