Curse

Total_Chaoss · Nov 03, 2010, 03:56 PM // 15:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rushin Roulette

Grenth forbid... the old jokes about Wammos are mostly in the past now. No need to let those old times flare up again.

But it's funny how they keep confirming the stereotype

Voodoo Rage · Nov 03, 2010, 04:12 PM // 16:12

I think a lot of people become a bit overly concerned with "optimizing" their builds or weaponry not realizing that at a certain point the benefits are not really statistically significant. Case in point is people who say "greens are worthless" because they have "terrible mods". If you really look at the mods on a weapon, it's not really that big of a deal in the end. Is using a 20/20/20 Staff vs. a 40/40 wand/focus combo really going to cause you to fail a mission?

I think as players we need a little clarity understanding that, yes, some spell combinations are SIGNIFICANTLY better than others, but at the same time understanding that a lot of these arguments on PVX about Meta builds getting constantly tweaked back and forth essentially amounts to tiny, infinitesimal differences in overall performance.

Case in point, this thread:

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...t10429696.html

gremlin · Nov 03, 2010, 04:13 PM // 16:13

Am not always into killing as fast as possible.
More into working so I kill my enemies in an especially elegant manner or better yet have them fall for a really dumb trick as foolish as slipping on a banana skin then I am happy.

I take great delight in beating the game in different ways, fast is for farming or gaining titles not for having fun.

Well that's how I play it.

Voodoo Rage · Nov 03, 2010, 04:27 PM // 16:27

There's a lot of intangibles too that you really can't ever measure. How do you quantitatively measure "support" like interrupts, knockdowns, conditions, condition removal, enchantments, etc?... Since it is indeed a game, a person's desire to have a particular play experience is obviously the most important aspect. Personally, the idea of doing a "speed clear" where you break away from your group to run and do a very particular task just seems abhorrent to me but obviously a lot of people love it, more power to them. I actually get a lot of delight taking my rit out solo, which is a very slow process and a lot of people would call a waste of time (especially if I am, gasp!, GREEN farming...

...). I've also discovered a new joy of playing the melee profession once I've discovered that the "almighty Sabway" isn't necessarily what you should be running if you are the front liner (it's a lot funner if your entire team is devoted to making YOU the star of the show).

Kronk_Shaan · Nov 03, 2010, 04:31 PM // 16:31

I don't 'crunch' the numbers before running around testing stuff...I just like coming up with things I haven't tried and see how well (or poorly at times) things go.
I have tried vanquishing with every hero I have at times running 3 wars, 3 eles, 3 derv's etc. I tried some map exploration last night with 3 eles, each running 8 mesmer skill bars based on energy surge, because minus the fast casting part, they have tons of energy.
Thought it would be fun, but the ele heroes apparently don't like the skill. Not sure what my next attempt will be, but when 7 heroes become available...*evil giggle.

I agree with posts above me that it will likely be the funnest week ever.

Arduin · Nov 03, 2010, 04:41 PM // 16:41

I was a build-maker in the old days, but as of now really anything is able to complete PvE, so I'm just using a proven build or slap something together if I feel like it.

NerfHerder · Nov 03, 2010, 05:06 PM // 17:06

Sometimes, all I do when I sign on is test different build combinations. I'm already testing out 7 hero builds, albeit 3 heros at a time. Ive been doing alot of maximizing heros to support the strengths, weaknesses, and uniqueness of the profession they belong to. Physical support for melee, spears, and bows, more spirits for my Rt, Rangers with pets on my Ranger, etc. I have much more fun on my Warrior bringing physical supports and an ER Prot than Sab/Discoway. And fun is what its all about right?

*lemming* · Nov 03, 2010, 06:31 PM // 18:31

GW isn't very good for this. Have you ever been to Elitist Jerks, perchance?

**Marty Silverblade** · Nov 03, 2010, 09:09 PM // 21:09

I'm a bit of a math geek so I like seeing the difference between certain things, for example +5AL vs +30 health, vamp vs. sundering. I don't do it unless I feel I need to prove something because otherwise the difference between a lot of things doesn't make a meaningful difference.

Morphy · Nov 03, 2010, 09:31 PM // 21:31

Zzzz, I really don't like this way of using math. The article Voodoo Rage is pretty exemplary for why this is the case: the author of that thread made quite a bit of assumptions that are highly questionable at best, while completely ignoring interrupts and other counters. Numbers should be used in a binary way (this skill deals more damage, that skill casts faster etc), while using logic to determine which of these qualities are relevant in a specific situation.

gr8hund · Nov 05, 2010, 02:25 AM // 02:25

I do what you're speaking of in the sense that I tweak my own build and each of my heroes everywhere I go, depending on the zone or mission. I don't calc theoretical max damage because damage is useless if it gets interupted by something like choking gas. I have run a mesmer myself almost 5 yrs and these days run 2 hero mes hard mode in doa fow slavers etc. Damage mitigation is every bit as important as potential damage. A simple example would be something like the fenrir bounty. 1 single mesmer with say tease, clumsiness signet of clumsiness and soothing images probably cuts that fight to 1/3 or 1/4 of it's max potential damage.

Right now for example if there were a lower damage spirit that knocked off stances, I would use it on a hero if not on my main in some places, such as UW against mind blades with ghostly might. I started using a communing spirit spam with disenchantment to handle vale in UW about a yr and a half ago and it beats both the SS I used to run and SoS and chilblains for that quest. Why? Ghostly might with disenchantment rapidly changes target and seeks out an enchantment to remove, so isn't confined by cool downs. Builds are only as good as the people who play them and their knowledge of the area they are optimizing for. You also have to have spirit leech aura dis and ghostly might to be really effective farming smite crawlers. If not, shield of judgement will eat your spirits.

Kudos to you but start calculating mitigation as well :P.

Cheers

cheers

gr8

*lemming* · Nov 05, 2010, 02:50 AM // 02:50

Read this:

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/w...s-t113319.html

galactic · Nov 05, 2010, 03:01 AM // 03:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

Read this:

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/w...s-t113319.html

is the math behind this thread still working? we have mindblast shitters who output 50dps.

bhavv · Nov 05, 2010, 03:59 AM // 03:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by galactic

is the math behind this thread still working? we have mindblast shitters who output 50dps.

Its a thread from 2006 before the game even had factions, let alone mind blast.

Most of the skills were still in their original form then.

I'm really not bothered about calculating damage numbers, and I dont need to do anymore than read the skill descriptions to put together a good build.

*lemming* · Nov 05, 2010, 04:18 AM // 04:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by galactic

is the math behind this thread still working? we have mindblast shitters who output 50dps.

Not really, but it was one of the most influential theory essays ever in GW.

Trader of Secrets · Nov 05, 2010, 04:42 AM // 04:42

calculation of damage is usually done in pvp

*Darcy* · Nov 05, 2010, 12:03 PM // 12:03

If you read all of Ensign's thread you will realize that he is explaining how max damage is not the end all of a profession's value. This essay was meant for PvPer's and goes into how perceived threat and tying up the attention of more opposing players is more valuable than damage.

Scary · Nov 05, 2010, 12:19 PM // 12:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Total_Chaoss

I've been playing GW for five years now, and I've always loved having discussions with my guildies about the maths behind skills, trying to maximise effectivity on a party-wide scale, not just getting a great build on one player
(the human player, mostly), but letting the whole party work together perfectly. (And then completely destroying everything with that setup)
Calculating the exact damage my party would do with setup X in 20 seconds on a target with Y armor, I just love that.

Now, my question is: are you guys bored with all the technical details of skills or do you love them as much as I do? Do you just start playing, grab a few henchies + heroes and see what will happen or coordinate all of your skills perfectly?
First thread btw

Totaly with you...

Some evenings I don't even get to playing GW, just becouse I want to do
some area's and figuring out builds with the skill lists for my hero's that would worked best and most important are fun to play. Some times the aly wanders why I still haven't tried discord or so. Blah I say... give me fun.

So yea.. spending time on builds with sometimes totally failure is a great part
of being a GW player. Have I told you about the hammer Iway hero build I
sometime use..

figure it out I'll would say.. but men, Koss, Goren and Jora.
What will you run as build with those 3 running wild

Ok, stop... I can go for ever on this

Quaker · Nov 05, 2010, 02:14 PM // 14:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Total_Chaoss

Now, my question is: are you guys bored with all the technical details of skills or do you love them as much as I do? Do you just start playing, grab a few henchies + heroes and see what will happen or coordinate all of your skills perfectly?

Somewhere in between for me. I only play PvE, so I seldom need to "maximize" anything.

I don't get into the math involved in damage calcs because we don't know the details of the "actual" calculations done by the software, and, in a practical sense, there are always random aspects to the results. And, I'm with Voodoo Rage in the sense that (in PvE) the differences between many mods, etc., are usually negligible in practicality.
But, I do attempt to co-ordinate the spell bars of my H&H team to make them work together better.
I'm never in a great hurry to finish playing, so "optimal" conditions don't matter much to me.

Racthoh · Nov 06, 2010, 01:17 AM // 01:17

I like to theorycraft. Number crunching has limited uses when considering the nature of Guild Wars' combat.