Curse

Aljasha · Nov 12, 2010, 03:21 PM // 15:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

My RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing god, if only they made a editor similar to the way skills are written, this shit wouldn't be happening.

Again, Anet delivered an awesome game, large part because of the redicilously skilled graphical team, but they can't code worth shit. The game is full of loopholes, glitches, exploits, bugs, and whatnot else, and the coding of their databases is so redundant it litteraly takes hours to change one skill as opposed to seconds.

Let's hope they learned their lesson for GW2.

try again next time. obviously some things do work or you wouldn't stick around.

ErrantVenture · Nov 12, 2010, 04:07 PM // 16:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aljasha

try again next time. obviously some things do work or you wouldn't stick around.

Actually he's pretty right about the coding structure of the client. It's a real mess and one of the most poorly designed game clients out there. Arenanet gave up on GW1 and started working on GW2 almost immediately after NF launched b/c the client simply couldn't handle the addition of another entire campaign's worth of content. Each skill introduced (I.E. skill splits, new monster skills, new pve skills, etc) degrades the performance of the client. The way the databases are structured, it takes hours to make small alterations to skills (I.E. minor damage values, hex durations, etc) when a properly designed client would allow skills to be altered in minutes. Anyway, hopefully they learned their lesson and had a plan when they coded the base structure of the GW2 client.

afya · Nov 12, 2010, 06:25 PM // 18:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Guild Wars revolves around melee physicals.

Not always, just the present day.

It is all because of HM after all. Without some type of protection, the insane damage from any mobs in those elite areas can 1 or 2 hit you even as a warrior. In the day of SoF, you don't need 100 armor nor 1000 hp. As NF and HM come, PVE became more and more pure damage. People have to use OB war(+bonder) and eles to spank thru DoA. This is too profession-specific and too much for casual players.

They found out that, to make the game easier, one way, increase dps, other way, decrease dmg received. Hence the Ursan, 100armor, 100+dps. People think its too noobish and OP.
So Cryway, RoJway, armor-ignoring dmg, which both still need tanks.
So here comes imbagon, reduce all the HM dmg to NM level
With Imbagon, ppl realise they no longer need tank, so now the physicals go back to dps, which is "+ damage" type.

Notice all these meta, the main thing is armor-ignoring(even SF or defy pain's reduction). They can't buff ele so they do 100dmg for HM foes, since that would be 1000dmg in NM. Physicalway is just a final(current) product from HM.

Xenomortis · Nov 12, 2010, 06:30 PM // 18:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by afya

Not always, just the present day.

The game and skillset has been built with physicals at centre stage.
Eles only had it free in the early days because the enemy AI couldn't work out what to do against AoE. Even without high armour, an Ele that can't nuke large balls is laughable compared to a Warrior and a Warrior fully backed up is leagues ahead of an Ele that's hitting AoE on everything.

afya · Nov 12, 2010, 06:49 PM // 18:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

The game and skillset has been built with physicals at centre stage.
Eles only had it free in the early days because the enemy AI couldn't work out what to do against AoE. Even without high armour, an Ele that can't nuke large balls is laughable compared to a Warrior and a Warrior fully backed up is leagues ahead of an Ele that's hitting AoE on everything.

Physicals haven't changed much, yes. They can do damage, yes. But without the current mega builds, imbagon, SY, or Emo, they simply can't survive the damage from HM monsters. The reason why physicals were tanks(OB,SF), not dps is simply because casters don't need to go upfront and receive damage, but melee have to. Now with imbagon or emo bonder, they can survive the heat and go do what they should have been doing. Remember, HM mobs have both high damage and high armor.

Xenomortis · Nov 12, 2010, 07:50 PM // 19:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by afya

Physicals haven't changed much, yes. They can do damage, yes. But without the current mega builds, imbagon, SY, or Emo, they simply can't survive the damage from HM monsters. The reason why physicals were tanks(OB,SF), not dps is simply because casters don't need to go upfront and receive damage, but melee have to. Now with imbagon or emo bonder, they can survive the heat and go do what they should have been doing. Remember, HM mobs have both high damage and high armor.

Not quite.
These high defense builds simply make keeping the physicals alive very easy.
If SY, ER and TNTF, Rit Lord and Soul Twisting all suddenly disappeared, Hard Mode won't suddenly be impossible for physicals to operate in.
How do you think physicals H/H stuff in the harder areas? They don't merely tank, I assure you.

HigherMinion · Nov 12, 2010, 08:12 PM // 20:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by afya

Physicals haven't changed much, yes. They can do damage, yes. But without the current mega builds, imbagon, SY, or Emo, they simply can't survive the damage from HM monsters. The reason why physicals were tanks(OB,SF), not dps is simply because casters don't need to go upfront and receive damage, but melee have to. Now with imbagon or emo bonder, they can survive the heat and go do what they should have been doing. Remember, HM mobs have both high damage and high armor.

When I H/H on my necro, I take Anton, Thom, Devona, etc. when running MoP Nuker.

I don't use SY, nor do I tank. You just have to kill very quickly and you only need to have Prot Spirit to survive for the initial pull before everything gets dead.

Aljasha · Nov 12, 2010, 09:25 PM // 21:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by ErrantVenture

Actually he's pretty right about the coding structure of the client. It's a real mess and one of the most poorly designed game clients out there. Arenanet gave up on GW1 and started working on GW2 almost immediately after NF launched b/c the client simply couldn't handle the addition of another entire campaign's worth of content. Each skill introduced (I.E. skill splits, new monster skills, new pve skills, etc) degrades the performance of the client. The way the databases are structured, it takes hours to make small alterations to skills (I.E. minor damage values, hex durations, etc) when a properly designed client would allow skills to be altered in minutes. Anyway, hopefully they learned their lesson and had a plan when they coded the base structure of the GW2 client.

They made prototypes of dynamic events with the client of GW. Since there were some technical limitations to that, they startet from scratch because a overhaul of the game engine might have caused more errors than features and changed the game for everyone who liked how the current game worked.

I don't know your sources for that claim, but I made the experience that numbers can be changed very quickly.

afya · Nov 12, 2010, 10:09 PM // 22:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Not quite.
These high defense builds simply make keeping the physicals alive very easy.
If SY, ER and TNTF, Rit Lord and Soul Twisting all suddenly disappeared, Hard Mode won't suddenly be impossible for physicals to operate in.
How do you think physicals H/H stuff in the harder areas? They don't merely tank, I assure you.

It is not impossible, just hard. Keeping one tank alive is much easier than keeping 5 melee survive. Don't get me wrong, I like melee too, especially when they hit big numbers. But their extra armor rate really isn't that much better than casters in hard mode. Without those mentioned defense builds, they won't just run in, aggro and kill. Careful pulls and aggros would be needed like fighting in caster way, minions wall will help too.

Ensign · Nov 12, 2010, 11:51 PM // 23:51

I'm pretty sure that without PvE skills Warriors would still just charge in and kill everything, just as they always have.

Now teams focused on farming a specific area would often run a tank to ball everything up so you could AoE it. Just like today. But they didn't have Shadow Form so you used some combination of a Spellbreaker guy and Obsidian Flesh.

But there wasn't ever really a time when you needed a tank to succeed in PvE. People ran over Prophecies with 5 Warrior builds and have only sped up from there.

LifeInfusion · Nov 13, 2010, 12:00 AM // 00:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by afya

Physicals haven't changed much, yes. They can do damage, yes. But without the current mega builds, imbagon, SY, or Emo, they simply can't survive the damage from HM monsters. The reason why physicals were tanks(OB,SF), not dps is simply because casters don't need to go upfront and receive damage, but melee have to. Now with imbagon or emo bonder, they can survive the heat and go do what they should have been doing. Remember, HM mobs have both high damage and high armor.

You can do pretty well with just "I am unstoppable" on your bar on a warrior with a shield. Prot Spirit covers for necro/mesmer spikes.

Waldir · Nov 13, 2010, 02:10 AM // 02:10

Looks like pretty much everything that the OP posted was correct so im going to expect the same things for Dervish changes, looks promising

Chthon · Nov 13, 2010, 04:21 AM // 04:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by ErrantVenture

Actually he's pretty right about the coding structure of the client. It's a real mess and one of the most poorly designed game clients out there. Arenanet gave up on GW1 and started working on GW2 almost immediately after NF launched b/c the client simply couldn't handle the addition of another entire campaign's worth of content. Each skill introduced (I.E. skill splits, new monster skills, new pve skills, etc) degrades the performance of the client. The way the databases are structured, it takes hours to make small alterations to skills (I.E. minor damage values, hex durations, etc) when a properly designed client would allow skills to be altered in minutes. Anyway, hopefully they learned their lesson and had a plan when they coded the base structure of the GW2 client.

I call bullshit. How the f--- do you know what their source code looks like or how long it takes them to input a numerical change to a skill? Unless you can point us to specific sources of information that we can verify for ourselves, I'm going to have to conclude you're just talking out of your arse.

NerfHerder · Nov 13, 2010, 05:15 AM // 05:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

I call bullshit. How the f--- do you know what their source code looks like or how long it takes them to input a numerical change to a skill? Unless you can point us to specific sources of information that we can verify for ourselves, I'm going to have to conclude you're just talking out of your arse.

He's got a point.

Meridon · Nov 13, 2010, 12:44 PM // 12:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

I call bullshit. How the f--- do you know what their source code looks like or how long it takes them to input a numerical change to a skill? Unless you can point us to specific sources of information that we can verify for ourselves, I'm going to have to conclude you're just talking out of your arse.

I remember seeing this before, here:
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/g...04#post5245904

In fact, now that I look back at it, it's the same person doing the claim, but getting a lot of support from people who seem to know their stuff. I can't help but believing it's the case.

Chthon · Nov 13, 2010, 09:47 PM // 21:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meridon

I remember seeing this before, here:
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/g...04#post5245904

In fact, now that I look back at it, it's the same person doing the claim, but getting a lot of support from people who seem to know their stuff. I can't help but believing it's the case.

It may or may not be the case. I am in no position to know.

My point is that he is not in a position to know either. I find it very difficult to believe that some random forum member has any serious insight into how the server-side backend works (aside from what little can be gleaned by examining the packets you can intercept), not to mention similar insight into enough OTHER games' server-side backends to make any sort of meaningful comparison that would justify the conclusion that it's "one of the most poorly designed game clients out there."

Nor, for that matter, am I the slightest bit convinced that a number of other people who also have no insight agreeing with him adds any weight to what he has to say.

Meridon · Nov 13, 2010, 11:16 PM // 23:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

It may or may not be the case. I am in no position to know.

My point is that he is not in a position to know either. I find it very difficult to believe that some random forum member has any serious insight into how the server-side backend works (aside from what little can be gleaned by examining the packets you can intercept), not to mention similar insight into enough OTHER games' server-side backends to make any sort of meaningful comparison that would justify the conclusion that it's "one of the most poorly designed game clients out there."

Nor, for that matter, am I the slightest bit convinced that a number of other people who also have no insight agreeing with him adds any weight to what he has to say.

I agree that the given explaination can't be based on more than hearsay, rumors, and speculation. The main reason why in my eyes the theory sounds viable, is because so far, it's the most sensible answer to the question of why Anet won't split the skills in all cases, in a format-specific way, but instead, still does a blanket update of a skill sometimes. The current example for this is MoI.

It's only a theory indeed, but I support it because it gives the best explaination to unproperly answered questions.

Bandwagon · Nov 14, 2010, 12:19 AM // 00:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karate Jesus

[/LIST]
Dervish changes

Mysticism buff (won't give specifics, but it's nice)
Avatars buffed
AoHM buff
Many enchantments changed to "Flash Enchantments". The exact definition I will not provide.
Many, many changes to Dervish enchants
Some attack skills given adrenaline cost
Some attack skills given more utility
Possibly change to attack speed and crit chance of scythes

There's more than that, but I don't want to give any specifics or host any leaks.

Again, a reminder, none or all of this could happen. This is based on rumors and things that have been posted, hosted, or passed around. It could be widely inaccurate or spot-on. Do not take these as fact or as a leak. They are neither.

To reiterate, this is not a thread for leaks and not for specifics. This is a speculation thread meant to guess at what is upcoming in the skill update considering that there are so many rumors flying around.

Let's hear what you think!

These PROPOSED / SPECULATED changes look promising, Dervishes were always frontloaded classes (kinda like the sin) of course, assassins actually had a working combat system (leads, offhands, dual attacks and skills that interact with them).

Of course these comments are based on speculative data, and may or may not be implemented.

Making certain skills adrenaline based helps ease off and balance Dervish spikes while giving the dervish more reason to hit multiple targets with the scythe (besides the fact that it causes more numbers to shoot up).

I am GUESSING that flash enchantments could refer to "instant" enchantments, IE no cast time, no aftercast (like stances). Assuming that is the case, the change could definitely bring back enchant juggling in a meaningful way since you don't have to lose attack time while setting yourself up.

Be nice to see the "big crits" of scythes to go away in favor of a profession that does not have to be balanced around the fact that their primary weapons hit like trucks when they crit. Assuming they are rein visioning the Scythe Weapon.

Unfortunately I have nothing to say about Avatars / AOHM / Mysticism until more details are released to the general playerbase

Yeah..this is definitely a deviation from the main discussion of the thread, I just thought it deserved mention.

FoxBat · Nov 14, 2010, 12:58 AM // 00:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

I find it very difficult to believe that some random forum member has any serious insight into how the server-side backend works ."

There was zero claim to this effect. All I saw in that post was about the CLIENT.

EVERY single skill in the game has to be indexed through by the client at certain times, regardless of if it's being used at present or not. A database is required to sort through all the icons, costs, types, profession/attribute affiliation, activation times and conditions, recharges, descriptions including dynamic numbers, targeting, activation range, and all graphical effects to be pre-loaded on zone load. When you hit your skill panel, when a player or a monster uses a skill, all of that has to be prepared for - every single player and NPC on every team, every monster existing and yet to be spawned. Maybe this is handled on bootup, maybe it's handled every time a zone is done, I don't know the specifics, but bottom line is the client has to be on top of all of this. Despite their streaming tech, they've had to push a client update out for every single skill tweak - alot has to be kept track of to minimize client-server communication and maximize prediction.

A server pointer to the executing function/script of a skill? That's likely the easy part database-wise.

Warvic · Nov 14, 2010, 01:16 AM // 01:16

As much as i hate KJ sometimes, i also love him for the things he does for this community

And this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Waldir

Looks like pretty much everything that the OP posted was correct so im going to expect the same things for Dervish changes, looks promising