Curse

ErrantVenture · Dec 10, 2010, 06:09 PM // 18:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe Hostile

The 50 ToT bags for Halloween was a test to see if GvGers would care for them at all and to see if it affected the psychology of killing the Guild Lord over focusing on a tiebreaker win. The feedback I got was overwhelmingly positive so I implemented holiday drops on a smaller scale for all major and minor events. They are smaller because they are meant to be in addition to something better I'm working on for permanent drops when killing the Lord before the tiebreaker. Think HA end chest.

Posted on Teamquitter today by Live Team member Joe Hostile. I know this is primarily a PvE site, but would this sort of thing (better rewards for winning GvG matches) make GvG more appealing to the PvE community?

drkn · Dec 10, 2010, 06:19 PM // 18:19

Nope. At this point, it's not that the PvE community isn't interested in getting into HA/GvG at all - it's just too hard to switch from PvE to organised PvP. The gameplay is completely different. The newcomers are expected to know lotsa things that don't even exist in PvE, and i'm not talking about split versions of skills.
It just generates too much frustration for someone who wants to start having fun with it and a new 'end chest' won't really change it.

It might, however, awaken some old GvG players, even if only those on medium level, or lower. Those who tried and liked GvG might be more encouraged to play it again/more.

ogre_jd · Dec 10, 2010, 06:36 PM // 18:36

All a chest for the Guild Lord will do is encourge even more 'smurfing', even outside of Zaishen days, which will only keep more and more people from GvG.

fowlero · Dec 10, 2010, 06:52 PM // 18:52

For those in the PvE community who are interested/have dabbled in GvG i think any further incentive to get them playing is a good thing and although it may not be the biggest incentive, they will at least see some reward from their playing which may keep them playing (and hopefully enjoying it).

Plus plenty i know who don't bother GvGing that much atm played a lot more during the ToT bag drops, though not so much with pies/cider but if that's meant to be alongside a further drop i'm sure it'd be similar.

End of the day, an incentive is way better than no incentive other than enjoying playing, which is hard when you startout sometimes as things can be overwhelming, and you haven't the experience to always explain why you lose.

I've no idea how you'd get round smurfing though.

MArcSinus · Dec 10, 2010, 09:53 PM // 21:53

I consider myself a PvE-only player since the da GW was released.
I've done a couple of GvG matches, won few and lost many, can't say I liked it tbh.
No "chest reward" is gonna convince me to play PvP.

TheRaven · Dec 11, 2010, 12:14 AM // 00:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by drkn

Nope. At this point, it's not that the PvE community isn't interested in getting into HA/GvG at all - it's just too hard to switch from PvE to organised PvP. The gameplay is completely different. The newcomers are expected to know lotsa things that don't even exist in PvE, and i'm not talking about split versions of skills.
It just generates too much frustration for someone who wants to start having fun with it and a new 'end chest' won't really change it.

It might, however, awaken some old GvG players, even if only those on medium level, or lower. Those who tried and liked GvG might be more encouraged to play it again/more.

This describes my feelings. I'm a PvE'er in a PvE guild. I really loved HA on the few occasions that our guild could scrape together a team to go try it. I had a lot of fun even when we didn't win and I absolutely loved the fact that I could earn fame, rewards from the chest and my name up in lights if we won Halls.

However, it's impossible to do on my own. Teams expect Rank 8 or better, and you better ping the perfect build with the perfect weapons or you can't get a team. If you dare ask questions, you're kicked and called a stupid noob.

Sorry, pvp has evolved to the point where newcomers are not welcomed. If you're not already experienced, you can't participate unless you go with guildies.

Now don't misunderstand me. I don't expect the elite HA guilds or teams to welcome me with open arms, but it would be nice to be able to group up with others on my level.

Corporeal Ghost · Dec 11, 2010, 02:52 AM // 02:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheRaven

Now don't misunderstand me. I don't expect the elite HA guilds or teams to welcome me with open arms, but it would be nice to be able to group up with others on my level.

I can't even tell you how many times I've seen this posted. There are apparently tons of people out there with the same mindset. Why can't any of you guys find each other on this very forum?

FoxBat · Dec 11, 2010, 02:54 AM // 02:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corporeal Ghost

I can't even tell you how many times I've seen this posted. There are apparently tons of people out there with the same mindset. Why can't any of you guys find each other on this very forum?

Most groups like this don't last very long because they lose constantly in the current environment.

newbie_of_doom · Dec 11, 2010, 02:57 AM // 02:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by ErrantVenture

Posted on Teamquitter today by Live Team member Joe Hostile. I know this is primarily a PvE site, but would this sort of thing (better rewards for winning GvG matches) make GvG more appealing to the PvE community?

Quote:

Originally Posted by drkn

Nope. At this point, it's not that the PvE community isn't interested in getting into HA/GvG at all - it's just too hard to switch from PvE to organised PvP. The gameplay is completely different. The newcomers are expected to know lotsa things that don't even exist in PvE, and i'm not talking about split versions of skills.
It just generates too much frustration for someone who wants to start having fun with it and a new 'end chest' won't really change it.

It might, however, awaken some old GvG players, even if only those on medium level, or lower. Those who tried and liked GvG might be more encouraged to play it again/more.

That's your answer.

Then, in response to Joe. He's wrong: you did get ToT if the enemy resigned as well, without killing the guild lord yourself. Maybe you had to damage it first or they just didn't drop until the timer passed a certain point. I am not sure. But you did get them.

Shortly, "The 50 ToT bags for Halloween was a test to see if GvGers would care for them at all and to see if it affected the psychology of killing the Guild Lord over focusing on a tiebreaker win. " is not true.

kedde · Dec 11, 2010, 03:00 AM // 03:00

If those people could group up, then possibly ask for help to improve as a group Im quite sure it would seem less hopeless of a project for others to help out on.

byteme! · Dec 11, 2010, 03:32 AM // 03:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corporeal Ghost

I can't even tell you how many times I've seen this posted. There are apparently tons of people out there with the same mindset. Why can't any of you guys find each other on this very forum?

I can't even tell you how many times I've seen this posted.

That's like blind leading the blind. It's not an answer to the problem. You get a bunch of noobs together and they'll stay noobs. Once they've gotten fed up with being trounced they'll be back to square one all over again.

The sheer volume of people in PvE trumps PvP'ers by a HUGE margin. If you can magically get people to guide all these players (or even just a small portion) and immerse them in PvP I'd like to see it. Until then it's just all talk. History and a little common sense suggests this ain't gonna happen.

GW has been out for years now. If it was really that simple to get into PvP the problem would've rectified itself by now. This is nothing more then an ongoing joke.

StormX · Dec 11, 2010, 04:49 AM // 04:49

In short: No. The learning curve is too steep and not worth the hassle.

Still Number One · Dec 11, 2010, 05:36 AM // 05:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by byteme!

I can't even tell you how many times I've seen this posted.

That's like blind leading the blind. It's not an answer to the problem. You get a bunch of noobs together and they'll stay noobs. Once they've gotten fed up with being trounced they'll be back to square one all over again.

Yet somehow every single person playing high end started off in the "Blind leading the blind" situation, as you put it. It is the answer. It is what was always the answer. No one ever got to where they were because top players led them there. They played in a group with noobs, got better, and suddenly they aren't noobs anymore. If you don't want to put up with the losing and the learning, then PvP isn't for you and you aren't the person that these updates and outreaches are targeting. The people these updates and outreaches are targeting, are the people who can handle losing and are willing to learn.

You and countless others always make the same excuse, that you can't get in a group because no one will let you in. Then when you are shown a way to get a group you reject it because that group isn't capable of holding your hand and getting you wins despite you doing nothing to help the team.

The problem isn't that the option isn't there. The player base just all the sudden decided to reject the option. The problem is there isn't a replacement. It was that or nothing. Looks like people settled with nothing.

Del · Dec 11, 2010, 05:52 AM // 05:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by StormX

In short: No. The learning curve is too steep and not worth the hassle.

Not really. And I'm guessing by this post that you've never even attempted gvg and probably shouldn't be commenting on it in the first place. The learning part is easy, it's practicing and getting better at applying what is learned that's harder, and not even that is very hard.

anonymous · Dec 11, 2010, 06:29 AM // 06:29

It just isn't very fun to lose a bunch. In the beginning it was alright, because it is new and people expect to be bad, but once people are good they don't want to go back to losing again. It is why no new people join and why no old players want to help new players out. Having a few new players on your team almost guarantees a loss unless you smurf, and leads to a lot of bad games that aren't any fun. My team used to hover around top 100-200 around 3 years ago, but we lost some people and just didn't want to put in the effort of hundreds of games to get more good teammates, so we all quit. When you have to train new people, you are starting at square one again with a bad team, which isn't very fun if you previously had a better team. New players need to deal with the losses on their own, like we had to, rather than expecting old players to sacrifice their fun to teach people how to play. We played for months to get good, you can't play 5 games and give up. We played because we liked PvP, if you don't like PvP and want some sort of reward, you won't play through the losses like we did.

xPc · Dec 11, 2010, 06:46 AM // 06:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Still Number One

No one ever got to where they were because top players led them there. They played in a group with noobs, got better, and suddenly they aren't noobs anymore.

That's not actually true. It's only the beginning of any game where this actually happens and even then the theory of any given game is worked out by a very small number of players who then lead the way for others to follow. This is why the meta-game is set by the top few percent of the playing community.

The vast majority of knowledge is learned through observing, playing with or against better players. This is why you see massive degradation of play when large groups of current top players quit.

Regardless of all this, I do generally tend to agree with your overall sentiment that in GW many unskilled players are unwilling to put work into improving their play. They all to often fall back to the same arguments about elitism and how difficult it is to find help.

Anyway, on topic of the thread. People won't play GvG to get ToT bags or whatever else. They'll play GvG because they want to GvG. The situation has gotten too bad to be fixed by adding a few tokenistic rewards like holiday items. If they actually want to revive the GvG scene they need to get sponsorship, offer real world prizes and host or sign to a tournament.

A11Eur0 · Dec 11, 2010, 08:06 AM // 08:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by MArcSinus

I consider myself a PvE-only player since the da GW was released.
I've done a couple of GvG matches, won few and lost many, can't say I liked it tbh.
No "chest reward" is gonna convince me to play PvP.

Precisely. I appreciate the skill it takes to PVP well, but the drastic difference in play styles between PvE and PvP make GvG entirely unfeasible for a mostly-PvE'er. It's just not fun being rolled in the first 5 minutes because I don't have the experience with calling targets or that I'm a target. I know that PvP'ers will probably clown on me and marc about it, but it's just not appealing, no matter the rewards in this theoretical "end chest" of GvG. The mini ghostly/crystallines/whatever other rare items from the HA end chest aren't enough, either.

Missing HB · Dec 11, 2010, 08:58 AM // 08:58

The only thing this will do is make many players sync with guilds on low rating , dead hours to farm a lot of rewards. Then ,if you couple it to quest, it will turn into some crap same than RR for Hero Battles or so. I remember on tot bags day , we kept fighting the same guilds syncing for like 2 hours ( they were resigning at begin ..).
Aswell , i don't really believe top100 players will care a lot on getting rewards ...

So , basically , easy solutions to not make GvG turn into epic farm :
- If drops , make them dedicated to players..
- If drops , don't make too many of them ( some were able to make 100 stacks of tot bags in 2 days...)

In my opinion , rewards should be as tournaments points , so everyone would be happy...

byteme! · Dec 11, 2010, 09:14 AM // 09:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Still Number One

Yet somehow every single person playing high end started off in the "Blind leading the blind" situation, as you put it. It is the answer. It is what was always the answer.

No it's not the answer. You don't get it. When we all started everyone was a noob and we all learned through experience within that time frame. There was no parity. As the game grew older the separation among the good and the bad grew larger and larger. We're 5 years into the game now, it's too late to reinvent the wheel. This isn't an excuse as you'd like to put it.

newbie_of_doom · Dec 11, 2010, 01:33 PM // 13:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by kedde

If those people could group up, then possibly ask for help to improve as a group Im quite sure it would seem less hopeless of a project for others to help out on.

Yes, but this never happens. I have guested for a lot of guild like this and it's always been disastrous.