Curse

Ferminator · Feb 13, 2011, 03:06 AM // 03:06

No change to the craptacular dervish dance?

wilebill · Feb 13, 2011, 03:48 AM // 03:48

Great ANet! My Dervish has been parked for so very long! Can't wait to see the Supreme Bench Warmer become my Star Quarterback!

A L F · Feb 13, 2011, 03:51 AM // 03:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ferminator

No change to the craptacular dervish dance?

Agree! Dervish Dance sux, btw when is this update coming out?? o.O?

AngelWJedi · Feb 13, 2011, 04:08 AM // 04:08

love what i seen so far. but im still not playing my derv anymore. she only need 5 more titles for gwamm and they are ones i can get on other chars. i wont get excited for this update until the day it comes out. cause how long have they said we would get it and never did? xD i wont count my chickens before they hatch.

Kosar The Cruel · Feb 13, 2011, 04:27 AM // 04:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by A L F

Agree! Dervish Dance sux

How can you say that?!
Have you seen where the dance originated from and who danced the dance first?!

ontopic...
I wonder what will become of the avatars...

Chthon · Feb 13, 2011, 04:46 AM // 04:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dagoth Umbra

@Kaleban and all the others saying tie AoHM to Mysticism so that only Dervishes can do the most damage with Scythes because only Dervishes should be able to do the most damage with scythes and they are not viable otherwise.

GAAAH!!! You buggering nitwits!

Well, I wouldn't put it exactly like that, but I agree.

To fix the problem of sins/wars having variants on the best dervish build that are better than the dervish's variant, a-net can either (a) nerf sins and wars, or (b) give dervishes an alternative build that is just as good or better. A-net has chosen to go with the second option. As long as they pull it off, it will work just fine. It should not matter if dervs can never attack spam as well as sins so long as dervs can accomplish just as much by enchant juggling.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

True, but VoS is a bad skill,

It's awkward, not out-and-out bad. A fully-planned team can usually build around it. For instance, Gyre would sometimes run a VoS scythe sin on HM UW physway runs that would destroy absolutely everything in a couple of hits.

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AScan is unusable for dervs due to energy requirements,

ZV says "hi." Have you played dervs a lot recently? That dervs can easily afford AScan is kinda common knowledge.

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and BUH really isn't an amazingly good skill synergy-wise.

It's a great skill synergy-wise. Dervs rely on big packets, and BuH multiplies those packets up to huge. What it's not is a good skill uptime-wise. I like it a lot more on an AP build than a melee.

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First off, MoP is a ridiculously stupid skill that should have been changed long ago to something like a reverse-sliver armor. All it does is encourage the most degenerate of tank-n-spank while not benefiting other builds much.

This really doesn't belong here, but:

1. Don't blame MoP for degenerate tank-n-spank stuff, blame Shadow Form. Every AoE skill becomes overpowered if you aim it at the oversized balls of monsters a SF tank can gather. Nerfing MoP will just move more tank-n-spank degenerates over to Keystone, Savannah Heat, etc. It's tank, not spank, that's the problem. I agree 100% that SF should be nerfed to death, and take tank-n-spank with it. Unfortunately, the last SF "nerf" leaves me with the impression that a-net does not agree.

2. MoP certainly does benefit non-tank-n-spank builds. In fact, AP-MoP is the best curse build by miles right now. (Haven't played a lot of necro recently either?)

3. MoP, in its native state, is not only balanced, but encourages good play. The awful recharge requires you to use good timing and placement, and the fact that necros lack physical damage requires teamwork to get good results. AP takes away that recharge, thereby taking away the need for good timing and placement. AP, of course, is a bit overpowered in PvE just be virtue of being rather easier to trigger than in PvP. On top of that, the huge single-target damage from Norn shouts+Vanguard Sin makes it almost too easy to trigger. The need for teamwork is taken away by being able to trigger your own MoP with Vanguard Sin. As I hope you can see, PvE skills are the real culprit here. However, it looks like a-net intended PvE skills to be this strong, so I wouldn't expect a fix, well, ever.

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If you are running MoP, you are running splinter weapon because lolshitdies.

I'd rather have GDW to keep stuff in adjacent range, unless Splinter is providing that last bit of damage for an insta-kill.

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Splinter weapon already has inherent synergy with scythes that other melee weapons need PvE skills to replicate.

The only synergy is added spikiness; DPS is not increased.

Malla13 · Feb 13, 2011, 04:57 AM // 04:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by X Dr Pepper X

Why do people not include how good Rangers are with scythes?

They're better than warriors with scythes.

I had that thought too. My ranger used a scythe exclusively for almost a year. The only reason I could pry it from her hands was because she suddenly fell for spears instead. XD

Kunder · Feb 13, 2011, 05:20 AM // 05:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

It's awkward, not out-and-out bad. A fully-planned team can usually build around it. For instance, Gyre would sometimes run a VoS scythe sin on HM UW physway runs that would destroy absolutely everything in a couple of hits.

So VoS is allowed to be awkward but AoHM isn't allowed to be 1/10th as awkward?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

ZV says "hi." Have you played dervs a lot recently? That dervs can easily afford AScan is kinda common knowledge.

Yeah, I knew I was forgetting something. Haven't played a derv much in over a year. Haven't even played melee at all in about year actually, its far too overpowered on any class and C-spacing to victory is pretty boring.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

It's a great skill synergy-wise. Dervs rely on big packets, and BuH multiplies those packets up to huge. What it's not is a good skill uptime-wise. I like it a lot more on an AP build than a melee.

25% isn't what I would consider amazing when every decent derv bar requires AoHM+SY, and that leaves only 1 slot open for a debateable PvE skill. I agree that is really only has a place on an AP bar.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

2. MoP certainly does benefit non-tank-n-spank builds. In fact, AP-MoP is the best curse build by miles right now. (Haven't played a lot of necro recently either?)

Saying that AP-MoP is the best curse build by miles doesn't mean much when 95% of curse skills are utter shit and the 4% excluding MoP aren't near worthwhile enough to make a build around. Its usefulness is in direct proportion to the amount of tanking-n-spanking you do (note: I may have a more lenient definition of tank-n-spank than you), thats all there is to it.

Quote:

3. MoP, in its native state, is not only balanced, but encourages good play. The awful recharge requires you to use good timing and placement, and the fact that necros lack physical damage requires teamwork to get good results. AP takes away that recharge, thereby taking away the need for good timing and placement. AP, of course, is a bit overpowered in PvE just be virtue of being rather easier to trigger than in PvP. On top of that, the huge single-target damage from Norn shouts+Vanguard Sin makes it almost too easy to trigger. The need for teamwork is taken away by being able to trigger your own MoP with Vanguard Sin. As I hope you can see, PvE skills are the real culprit here. However, it looks like a-net intended PvE skills to be this strong, so I wouldn't expect a fix, well, ever.

It seems what you call 'good timing and placement' is identical to what I call 'tank-n-spank'. Unless you are specifically luring enemies together with a tank then at most MoP is only going to hit 1, maybe 2 other enemies under most circumstances.

Certainly, AP is ridiculously overpowered on any skill that has a 30s+ duration for a reason. Unfortunately its the only way casters other than E/Mo eles and Channeling rits have any relevance at all in PvE these days.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

I'd rather have GDW to keep stuff in adjacent range, unless Splinter is providing that last bit of damage for an insta-kill.

The only synergy is added spikiness; DPS is not increased.

DPS is certainly increased when you kill things in 3 hits instead of 5 and are halfway along to the next mob in time to get the next SW. If stuff is running out of range due to AoE spam you should be killing it faster, IMO.

FoxBat · Feb 13, 2011, 05:43 AM // 05:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by X Dr Pepper X

Why do people not include how good Rangers are with scythes?

They're better than warriors with scythes.

Sins do more damage than rangers, while warriors spam SY. (Albeit, scythe may still be the best ranger weapon.)

The whole dervish update is premised on the 3rd best scythe wielder in the game not being overpowered enough, what makes you think people have time for 4th best...

zwei2stein · Feb 13, 2011, 07:38 AM // 07:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

4. Just on general principles, making an offensive class whose best builds are simply incompatible with your support class's best builds is just bad design. It discourages teamwork and team-level planning for builds.

Quoted for emphasis.

Damage converts are okay if they are optional and self contained - something you do if you miss support to emulate a bit of it (like going /e for conjure).

Being de-syregized with your team because it is mandatory way of running your class is bad.

---

But there are solutions: holy converts can also produce package of zero physical damage which can interact oop/barbs/mop/whatever naturally.

Lishy · Feb 13, 2011, 09:13 AM // 09:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by mage767

1. Intimidating aura is a crappy skill in HM. Most enemies have much higher HP than you, so it barely triggers. GG indeed. Please play the skills before you talk.

I hope this quote isn't too old to respond to yet, but I have to say that after extensive testing and messing with the Dervish in HM, I would confirm quite the opposite.

Firstly, the Dervish has a perma-base +25 hp thanks to his armor. This means he doesn't lose out on +hp when using a two-handed weapon (Scythe). That may seem small, but when you consider enemies are dropping like flies and dying fast, it greatly increases your chance of having higher hp than your enemy in HM just seconds into the battle.

Secondly, how many enemies actually have more HP than the player for more than two seconds in HM? I think this view on the playerbase is greatly exaggerated to be honest..

Anyways, they said they changed 90% of the skills. I'm sure Intimidating Aura will be smexy

Coast · Feb 13, 2011, 10:27 AM // 10:27

mallyx/dhuum/urgozz/kanaxai/shiro and some more that i can't think of atm

Killed u man · Feb 13, 2011, 02:19 PM // 14:19

Lol, people arguing dervishes are bad in pve...

Since when did "worse than" became "terrible"? A scythe as a whole is one of the most overpowered things in PvE. The only problem is supplying the energy to pump attack skills. (But even auto attacking with splinter = lulz) Not even an IAS is needed, as dwarven master supplies every professions with a possible 30/30%.

Heck, I'm fairly convinved an E/D with scythe attacks, a conjure (which ignores armor), dwarven master and then 2-3 free skills for energy/defence would pump more than any other ele bar you can throw together. (With MAYBE the exception of Sliver armor, but that's attributed to Shadow Form being able to tank a million enemies)

Same can be said for Monks, Necros, Warriors, Rangers and Paragons.

A buffed Scythe does redicilous amounts of damage, and while I definatly praise the upcomming update for the breath of fresh air, it is in no way needed because Dervishes are far from useless (or even underpowered) in PvE.

Coast · Feb 13, 2011, 02:38 PM // 14:38

to bad i don't got a derv to proof how pimp dervs are in pve(and u can use zealous scythe for energy, lol)

ensoriki · Feb 13, 2011, 03:01 PM // 15:01

Anyways i adore the pious update, tired of losing protective spirit.
Not worried about losing anything the scale reminds me of the big skill updates we used to get before GW2 work started.
Conceptually will likely feel like the exact same class, but more efficient. Get enchants, strip them. With stripping actually working now.

Don't see how this puts Dervs as the primary scythe wielders over assassins and warriors though. The dervish was fine in PvE, but it wasn't the best at it's job.

Also surprising lack of the more...caster based aspects of the dervish. Arcane Zeal, Pious Renewal, imbue health, etc. What will befall those? Will they be changed to fit what appears to be a greater push to have offensive dervishes?

Hoping for some fast paced gameplay.

I still remember the Dervish bombs from nightfall release, can I be a bomb again? Difficult when earth & cold damage are elemental and everything and their mom is resisting it. Terrible in pve when your giant nuke does like...40 damage to something in HM...if that. Looking at the damage, Mystic twister really won't be doing more damage, so it's still crap damage in HM, worse if there is rangers.

Still and always will play my Derv & Sin, I look forward to the changes.

Apache215 · Feb 13, 2011, 03:04 PM // 15:04

Im gonna play my dervish now. Deck it out in gear and a DSR

Kaleban · Feb 13, 2011, 03:24 PM // 15:24

I agree with ensoriki, I loved playing the Derv Bomber with a shadowstep and literally exploding at shrines and such.

I hope to be able to play solely enchant based builds around that concept, and I hope that the recharges on Flash chants take into account a completely caster based build concept as well.

Might be nice to see staves and wands/foci with Mysticism requirements added in too!

Dzjudz · Feb 13, 2011, 03:41 PM // 15:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ferminator

No change to the craptacular dervish dance?

You mean the stupid female dance or the legendary male dance?

MithranArkanere · Feb 13, 2011, 03:47 PM // 15:47

The female dance is cool too.

It goes round, and round, and round, and round, and round, and round, and round, and round, and round, and round, and round, and round, and round, and round, and round, and round, and round, and round, and round, and round, and round, and round, and round, and round, and round, and round, and

@_@

Awawawaw...

I think I'm got motion sickness...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

I agree with ensoriki, I loved playing the Derv Bomber with a shadowstep and literally exploding at shrines and such.[...]

I HATE bomber builds. They basically exploit the fast respawn to quickly move to some places and kill themselves to take people with them.
Unfortunately, it's very hard to detect if someone kill themselves, but if it was, I would give suicide players +20..60 seconds of waiting time until they respawn.

People should try to stay alive and fight other players to win, not avoid other players and suicide-bomb NPCs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

[...]
I hope to be able to play solely enchant based builds around that concept, and I hope that the recharges on Flash chants take into account a completely caster based build concept as well.

Might be nice to see staves and wands/foci with Mysticism requirements added in too!

But I do agree with the caster melee weapons.

There are 7 martial weapon types, but only 2 caster types.

You could pick some staff skins, give them hammer animations, to make quarterstaves, and some wand skins and give them axe animations to make maces, and there you go, some caster melee weaponry.

ensoriki · Feb 13, 2011, 03:48 PM // 15:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

I agree with ensoriki, I loved playing the Derv Bomber with a shadowstep and literally exploding at shrines and such.

I hope to be able to play solely enchant based builds around that concept, and I hope that the recharges on Flash chants take into account a completely caster based build concept as well.

Might be nice to see staves and wands/foci with Mysticism requirements added in too!

MELEE STAFF, MELEE STAFF.

omfg if they make Mysticism staffs attack in melee... I would...burst.
Just take the animation for Swords or Scythes, and make them use that animation when using staves that requre Mysticism.
Would be so boss.