Curse

Daesu · Mar 21, 2011, 02:33 AM // 02:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saint Scarlet

You didn't read my post properly. Mercs were designed for cosmetic value only, other than that the only reason i can see people paying for it is to have the advantage others don't. If anyone can tell me another reason why people bought them i'm all ears....

I still don't know what this MH advantage that people keep referring to is.

A reason why people bought them? For fun, so they can experiment with more variety of funky team builds that may or may not be viable for most areas.

Improvavel · Mar 21, 2011, 02:44 AM // 02:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saint Scarlet

You didn't read my post properly. Mercs were designed for cosmetic value only, other than that the only reason i can see people paying for it is to have the advantage others don't. If anyone can tell me another reason why people bought them i'm all ears....
If they bought them for cosmetic value then why are people upset if everyone else gets 5 zaishen heros, to make the playing field level for everyone.

Are you implying Anet isn't going to add additional heroes to the game?

Are people starting a lobby to prevent Anet to add additional heroes?

More heroes are expected with winds of change. A paragon hero was added just a couple of months ago.

Before that M.O.X was added to the game.

I see a pattern of Anet adding new heroes to the game with new content and they seem to keep adding heroes to the professions that have fewer of them.

Of course 1 year ago no one would have cared if there was only 2 mesmer heroes or 18 months ago no one would have cared if there was only 2 ritualist heroes since they would have sucked big time.

Maybe in a couple of months with the promised melee AI fix and the promised paragon revamp, no one will care about how many mesmers a player with the merc heroes can have.

afya · Mar 21, 2011, 02:46 AM // 02:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

The merc heroes aren't an obvious advantage because you DON'T NEED/REQUIRE MERC HEROES TO HAVE 4 MESMERS IN A PARTY.

How? Say I have no friend, no guild, can't pug.

PS. An easy fix if people really are only going for cosmatic, is to limit the number of necro hero to 3, mes to 2, monk to 3, etc, etc. And those people will start QQing.

Saint Scarlet · Mar 21, 2011, 02:53 AM // 02:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

A reason why people bought them? For fun, so they can experiment with more variety of funky team builds that may or may not be viable for most areas.

Fair point, fun is another reason yes. But what happens when during that experimenting, the person discovers a build that means they can farm an area in half the time it takes someone without them. Answer is it'll be abused and create a situation where either you have to buy to get the same advantage or you go without.

There isn't yet a precedent for this with purchasable upgrades, but over the years we have all seen it happen when someone discovers that such and such build works better. Sins used to be pretty much shunned in the early days, same as rits. But now how many people created one of these profs just to take advantage of the builds available(not entirely the same thing i know but it's an example of how the majority of humans behave).

EDIT: IIRC someone stated that after we got "Thickery" we wouldn't be getting another hero with the WoC, not entirely sure on this but a memory of something like this is lingering in my mind

Improvavel · Mar 21, 2011, 02:56 AM // 02:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by afya

How? Say I have no friend, no guild, can't pug.

If you don't have a guild, friends, can't pug can you do heroes ascent?
No.

Can you do AB?
No.

Can you do Urgoz or the deep?
No.

Can you play GvG?
No.

If you don't have a guild wars account can you play the game?
No.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saint Scarlet

Fair point, fun is another reason yes. But what happens when during that experimenting, the person discovers a build that means they can farm an area in half the time it takes someone without them. Answer is it'll be abused and create a situation where either you have to buy to get the same advantage or you go without.

You join with someone else that doesn't have merc heroes and are done.

Dzjudz · Mar 21, 2011, 03:11 AM // 03:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

I still don't know what this MH advantage that people keep referring to is.

A reason why people bought them? For fun, so they can experiment with more variety of funky team builds that may or may not be viable for most areas.

Then you wouldn't mind if they put in generic heroes so everyone can make any team they want.

afya · Mar 21, 2011, 03:27 AM // 03:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

If you don't have a guild, friends, can't pug can you do heroes ascent?
No.

Can you do AB?
No.

Can you do Urgoz or the deep?
No.

Can you play GvG?
No.

If you don't have a guild wars account can you play the game?
No.

You join with someone else that doesn't have merc heroes and are done.

Who cares HA, AB, GvG? fyi, you can't have hero in those places.
I want to macro smiteball in pve! I want to macro bloodspike in pve! What's the advantage? more fun!

I believe this issue is about the same concept when they decided to remove heroes in HA/GVG.

Improvavel · Mar 21, 2011, 03:30 AM // 03:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzjudz

Then you wouldn't mind if they put in generic heroes so everyone can make any team they want.

I'm pretty sure Anet didn't ask Daesu or anyone else if they can or cannot add more heroes.

Speaking for myself, I don't mind - for example I almost always play with another person and we both put 3 heroes each. Curiously we have never added more than 2 rits or 2 mesmers.

I doubt they will add generic heroes, but most likely they will add at least enough to make 3 per profession.

Improvavel · Mar 21, 2011, 03:32 AM // 03:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by afya

Who cares HA, AB, GvG? fyi, you can't have hero in those places.
I want to macro smiteball in pve! I want to macro bloodspike in pve! What's the advantage? more fun!

I believe this issue is about the same concept when they decided to remove heroes in HA/GVG.

You can have that now - just buy the mercenaries.

noneedforclevernames · Mar 21, 2011, 03:41 AM // 03:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by aga

It's far from surprising that it was done. All that businesses want to do is make money by any means neccessary, ncsoft/anet are no different, infact I'd say NCsoft are the most money grabbing game publishers around.

Every business in the entire world operates for their own self interest. If it appears that the business is operating in your self interest, its not the case. The business will expect a gain in the future. The gain could be monetary, or it could be psychic (Emotional, makes you feel good, etc...). Typically the gains from companies are monetary, however there are still a lot of psychic gains.

For instance, if NCSOFT/ANET provide you with additional 'free' content its likely because they want you to buy the next expansion pack that is not free. Or they want to increase their player base through establishing more satisfied customers (Hence increased profits). Every single business, and every single person only does what is in their best interest. In economics class this principal is called 'opportunity cost.'

In everyday life this is called greed, and its probably the best thing that can possibly happen for humanity. Greed actually causes maximized public interest. That's why when you get government involvement in something you typically end off with inefficiency. If people were not greedy, there would be no reason for people to even get out in bed, let alone to accomplish anything to benefit humanity.

Ka Tet · Mar 21, 2011, 03:48 AM // 03:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by noneedforclevernames

In everyday life this is called greed, and its probably the best thing that can possibly happen for humanity. Greed actually causes maximized public interest. That's why when you get government involvement in something you typically end off with inefficiency. If people were not greedy, there would be no reason for people to even get out in bed, let alone to accomplish anything to benefit humanity.

That is the most retarded theory I've heard since trickle down economics.

Daesu · Mar 21, 2011, 03:49 AM // 03:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saint Scarlet

Fair point, fun is another reason yes. But what happens when during that experimenting, the person discovers a build that means they can farm an area in half the time it takes someone without them. Answer is it'll be abused and create a situation where either you have to buy to get the same advantage or you go without.

Perhaps they will indeed find such a build or perhaps they would never find such a build. At this time, however, that is mere speculation.

It is pointless, to complain just based on pure speculation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzjudz

Then you wouldn't mind if they put in generic heroes so everyone can make any team they want.

ANet can choose do that, but how would that earn them any extra money?

Improvavel · Mar 21, 2011, 03:54 AM // 03:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by noneedforclevernames

Every business in the entire world operates for their own self interest. If it appears that the business is operating in your self interest, its not the case. The business will expect a gain in the future. The gain could be monetary, or it could be psychic (Emotional, makes you feel good, etc...). Typically the gains from companies are monetary, however there are still a lot of psychic gains.

For instance, if NCSOFT/ANET provide you with additional 'free' content its likely because they want you to buy the next expansion pack that is not free. Or they want to increase their player base through establishing more satisfied customers (Hence increased profits). Every single business, and every single person only does what is in their best interest. In economics class this principal is called 'opportunity cost.'

In everyday life this is called greed, and its probably the best thing that can possibly happen for humanity. Greed actually causes maximized public interest. That's why when you get government involvement in something you typically end off with inefficiency. If people were not greedy, there would be no reason for people to even get out in bed, let alone to accomplish anything to benefit humanity.

Basically when you let government involved you remove the balance to Greed which is the Fear of losing what you already own and/or simply if you lose it doesn't matter cause it wasn't yours in the first place and can always tax some more, which leads to inefficiency or wrong/insane decisions that aren't then subject to the natural selection of the global market.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ka Tet

That is the most retarded theory I've heard since trickle down economics.

Don't worry. The citizens of many western countries will, unfortunately, learn the truth of what he is saying in the next few years, when it will start to be impossible to borrow to consume more than what a country produces.

Saint Scarlet · Mar 21, 2011, 04:06 AM // 04:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Perhaps they will indeed find such a build or perhaps they would never find such a build. At this time, however, that is mere speculation.

It is pointless, to complain just based on pure speculation.

Well for one i'm not complaining i'm making valid points, myself i don't care either way i've never done something just because everyone else is.
And if you had actually read this discussion in full. You would know i have already pointed out on a few occasions that at this time it is speculation. But remember that where theres a will theres a way, people will discover an advantage to it it's just a matter of the time it takes for this to happen. It's been shown many times in GW and everywhere else, humans en-masse can out think what any one person can.

And as for the post about greed being the best thing, please remember to tell that to all the people who have lost someone just because someone got greedy and wanted to take what was not theirs. Greed isn't noble it's a cancer of the human civilisation.

*lemming* · Mar 21, 2011, 04:10 AM // 04:10

If you want to have an economics debate, the Off-Topic forum is available.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

ANet can choose do that, but how would that earn them any extra money?

You and just about all other purchasers of mercenary heroes who've chimed in have gone on the record as saying that vanity was the primary motive. Why would that be significantly impacting Anet's revenue?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

You can have that now - just buy the mercenaries.

You don't see an issue with that?

>_>

Daesu · Mar 21, 2011, 04:16 AM // 04:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saint Scarlet

And if you had actually read this discussion in full. You would know i have already pointed out on a few occasions that at this time it is speculation. But remember that where theres a will theres a way, people will discover an advantage to it it's just a matter of the time it takes for this to happen. It's been shown many times in GW and everywhere else, humans en-masse can out think what any one person can.

Maybe they will or maybe they won't. It is pointless to speculate on this at this time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

You and just about all other purchasers of mercenary heroes who've chimed in have gone on the record as saying that vanity was the primary motive. Why would that be significantly impacting Anet's revenue?

I didn't say "significantly".

It is a FUN factor to offer this in the store for people who like experimenting on hero builds, whether this would result in finding a better build than it is possible without merc heroes, nobody can say for sure at this time. So there is no obvious advantage to merc heroes at this time.

There is no reason why ANet can't charge us extra for a new fun feature.

Star_Jewel · Mar 21, 2011, 04:35 AM // 04:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

There is no reason why ANet can't charge us extra for a new fun feature.

Isn't "fun" the point of the game? Isn't "fun" the point of new content, new stuff? So if they decide to start charging money for any additional "fun" feature, we should shrug it off? At what point does charging for the "fun" change the game from free-to-play to pay-to-play?

Xiaquin · Mar 21, 2011, 04:44 AM // 04:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saint Scarlet

If they bought them for cosmetic value then why are people upset if everyone else gets 5 zaishen heros, to make the playing field level for everyone.

We're (supposed to be) discussing the advantage at stake and whether or not it's enough to call MH unacceptable. I personally feel that PvE is already on the easy side and there is little to gain when you compare heavily homogenized parties to other seven hero team builds. For $45, you'd really need to do a lot of work before you can say the investment has paid off.

But I haven't heard much response from my point about game balancing other than "it's too hard". As a ranger, I'm really at a disadvantage in PvE. Why are my skills so slow, underpowered and difficult if not harmful to use? Why is the ritualist so much better and can even use my most powerful elite to greater effect? As an elementalist, why do my spells have to respect armor while other professions outright ignore it?

So instead of throwing weight on the other side of the scale to level things off, let's level the real playing field: skills.

Improvavel · Mar 21, 2011, 05:01 AM // 05:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

You don't see an issue with that?

>_>

No because it is an extension of what already exists in the game - heroes.

If the mercenary heroes could use PvE-only skills while regular heroes couldn't, that would be an obvious advantage. But since mercenary heroes behave like already existent heroes (other than appearance/names) I don't see how it is an advantage.

For example the introduction of profession agnostic PvE-only skills in EotN was a much bigger departure and gave a much bigger advantage to the players that owned/own EotN over those that didn't/don't.

Yet, everyone just assumes all players own EotN - EotN is canon, mercenary heroes aren't.

Why is that? Both were created by Anet after all.

Other than the fact one was available as a boxed product and the other isn't, both in essence are game enhancers and extend the amount of game time.

Additionally, full parties of the same profession can be recreated in game without mercenary heroes in case they confer any advantage in terms of killing/completion speed. I can't simply ignore that you can party with other people in this game.

For example the BMP offer weapon skins that can't be recreated in game, but offer no advantage in terms of killing speed.

Where is the line drawn then?

The line is drawn if something confers a killing/completion speed advantage that can't be recreated in game by any other means.

A weapon that exceeded max damage found in game, for example. An inscription that exceeded the game status.

What about new professions/and or skills?
I'm a bit more concerned with that. Something that extends/improve current content is alright. Something that changes existent content is much more worrisome and depends of how it is implemented. Ursan Blessing and Shadow Form (still a problem) comes to mind. On the other hand prophecies mobs always had big problems dealing with professions like paragons, for example. I for myself would just buy the profession and the slot to make the character since a few hundred hours of game play seem decent.

Would I rather that everything that is in the online store was free?
Sure.

But as I said in a previous post, there is no harm in charging for something that adds game play value to the game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Star_Jewel

Isn't "fun" the point of the game? Isn't "fun" the point of new content, new stuff? So if they decide to start charging money for any additional "fun" feature, we should shrug it off? At what point does charging for the "fun" change the game from free-to-play to pay-to-play?

The game was supposed to have a new campaign every 6 months, so you would be paying something like $100 a year or $8.33 a month. The advantage over traditional pay to play MMORPG is that you were free to make the investment at any time and if you decided to take a break for a few months and then return you wouldn't be competitively hindered.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It would also be fun if after all these fights over here Anet would just turn up on the 6th birthday and said "Surprise, 2 merc heroes slots for everyone!". Would be nice to have all my 10 chars available.

Daesu · Mar 21, 2011, 05:01 AM // 05:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Star_Jewel

Isn't "fun" the point of the game? Isn't "fun" the point of new content, new stuff? So if they decide to start charging money for any additional "fun" feature, we should shrug it off? At what point does charging for the "fun" change the game from free-to-play to pay-to-play?

The game has always been free-to-play. But they can always charge for new fun feature or content. Costumes are fun too but they are not free.

At least the extra feature/content payments are optional, unlike traditional subscription-based MMOs.