Curse

Azazello · Apr 25, 2011, 11:53 AM // 11:53

It's really hard to figure out what is making people upset when they're so upset they can't communicate properly

What are we supposed to be balancing dervs against?

Warriors? Why has there been no outcry to balance warriors against other damage dealers at any point in the last six years?

Melee counters and healing? How do we determine when it's balanced? When the mean average match length is 28 minutes?

I guess you need to define your terms, particularly balance and imbalance, as they are relative terms and I'm not at all sure what reference you are using them in.

If the questions are annoying you as much as they seem to be please just ignore me though. As I said, I'm genuinely curious. I really am looking for answers, not a haranguing.

pinkeyflower · Apr 25, 2011, 12:07 PM // 12:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazello

It's really hard to figure out what is making people upset when they're so upset they can't communicate properly

What are we supposed to be balancing dervs against?

Warriors? Why has there been no outcry to balance warriors against other damage dealers at any point in the last six years?

Melee counters and healing? How do we determine when it's balanced? When the mean average match length is 28 minutes?

I guess you need to define your terms, particularly balance and imbalance, as they are relative terms and I'm not at all sure what reference you are using them in.

If the questions are annoying you as much as they seem to be please just ignore me though. As I said, I'm genuinely curious. I really am looking for answers, not a haranguing.

How do you balance warriors against other professions when they have been the frontline for the past five or six years? You can't balance a warrior against an ele.

SongOf · Apr 25, 2011, 12:39 PM // 12:39

Warriors don't need a buff, dervs need a (slight) nerf.

Why the hell would you waste your time changing one thing, when you know for a fact that something else is what caused problems

Godess Charmaine · Apr 25, 2011, 01:29 PM // 13:29

I am new topvp so be kind, I feel that when ever I have gone into the pvp HA thing its allways either a team of sins, warrors or now derv's that own it out right and I cannot understand why instead of bothering fixing the Builds as such why not just fix ha.

Simple really limit the team so that only your main class is accesabel and limit the amount of classes so that u get 1 derv, 1 warror ,1 sin, 1 mesmer,1 monk so forth or 2 per team set up limiting the overpowerfull team build so it really does come down to the skill of the players

or if all else fails just give everyone in pvp the apirl fools day build and may the last man standing wins lol

ohh and ty i play monk and they killd my 600 days so deal with it and adapt its just a game have fun

cheers

Str0b0 · Apr 25, 2011, 02:13 PM // 14:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Because dervs today are like warriors, only more powerful and requiring absolutely no skill.

There's skill involved in this? Cooking is a skill. Woodworking is a skill. Kung Fu is a skill. Programming is a skill. Pushing buttons in response to triggers is something lab animals do. In fact I would go so far as to say that given the right interface I could teach a lab rat to PvP or PvE for that matter. I'm more or less sick of seeing the word skill even brought into these arguments, which invariably pop up every time there is a major skill update because everyone gets butthurt about their favorite class no longer being useful or necessary to the newly established meta.

Every class gets their day on top of the heap. It's part of the development of EVERY game like this. It happens in WoW. It happens in Aion. It happens in Guild Wars and it will happen again in Guild Wars 2. The only way any MMO PvP will ever achieve anything approaching balance is to zero out every class. Take away everything that makes them unique. Give everyone the same base stats and damage and let it be entirely based on positioning, connection speed and pure luck. Or you can give every single class a valid and readily available counter to every other class thus making PvP more like a giant game of Paper Rock Scissors. Neither one sounds terribly appealing to me. So it seems the only viable option, short of stroking out in a fit of nerd rage, is to roll with the punches and adapt your playstyle or, God forbid, roll one of the newly buffed classes. Otherwise what all these arguments boil down to is, "I like playing a sub optimal class in the new meta and mean old Arena Net won't buff my sub optimal class or change the meta so I can play how I want to play."

TLDR: There is no skill required to play this game and stop crying about warriors and just roll a dervish or quit.

Missing HB · Apr 25, 2011, 02:20 PM // 14:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Str0b0

just roll a dervish or quit.

Lame answer but quite right knowing their updates for a few months now....At every update i'm more convinced that the PvP would be better if they didn't do any single skill update ever.... Ah well , good old days when GW wasn't a farming factory....

deluxe · Apr 25, 2011, 02:49 PM // 14:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Str0b0

TLDR: There is no skill required to play this game and stop crying about warriors and just roll a dervish or quit.

Everyone can play a dervish well, even a guy that just bought the game.
Now try playing a warrior well.

Alathin · Apr 25, 2011, 02:55 PM // 14:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arutima

i am maining a ranger since factions (was on necromancer before)

i'd say let' buff rangers instead

give us thackeray skill bar (one hit kill bow attack, ultra spammable interrupt that gives deep wound etc)

make barrage kill everything in an 5 square kilometer area. And magebane shot to blow up your opponent's computer

Magebane Shot (PvP): 10 Energy, 5 second CD.
Magebane shot overheats your opponents graphics card causing his computer to melt down and catch on fire. If this shot intrupts a spell, the two opponents nearest to your target also suffer from "OMG my computer is on fire help I dont have anything to put the fire out HELP!".

Coast · Apr 25, 2011, 02:56 PM // 14:56

ban sins/rits/paras/dervs from pvp and revert every skill before factions got introduced.
fixed

Alathin · Apr 25, 2011, 02:58 PM // 14:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coast

ban sins/rits/paras/dervs from pvp and revert every skill before factions got introduced.
fixed

I would vote for that.

cantalus · Apr 25, 2011, 03:01 PM // 15:01

can someone move this to the Gladiator's arena, too many people are posting who clearly aren't pvpers, and if they are i'm sure they'll find it in the Gladiator's

pinkeyflower · Apr 25, 2011, 03:04 PM // 15:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Str0b0

TLDR: There is no skill required to play this game and stop crying about warriors and just roll a dervish or quit.

Slightly off-topic but you think playing as a monk or ranger has no skill attached to it? We can't all be as bad as you and have some blind belief that success in Guild Wars doesn't revolve around communication and skill (learning to kite properly, weapon swap efficiently, learning to position and follow damage, using skills effectively, pre-protting). Have you even played PvP or at least higher-end PvP?

Have PvP consist of just dervishes is fun? But then your beloved N/Me would cease to exist.

Mokeiro · Apr 25, 2011, 03:04 PM // 15:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coast

ban sins/rits/paras/dervs from pvp and revert every skill before factions got introduced.
fixed

I vote for that too. Game was much better balanced before all the new profesions and skills madness.

Fate Crusher · Apr 25, 2011, 03:10 PM // 15:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by akelarumi

I've started playing this game 26 months ago and paid 50 bucks for all campaigns. I played it for 5,733 hours in total. So I'm playing for less then 0,01 bucks/hour. The game had several big updates. Some I really liked, some I didn't like.

But all updates have slowly created a huge power creep and slowly weeded out skills that would have been beneficial against these new Dervs, such as DA or Shield of Deflection, or even the old Aura of Faith, maybe even bonding (the power creep of ench removals have made them absolutely pointless in any format).

Quote:

Personally I'm really happy with the amount of work they still are putting into this game though I would say they should put more effort into bringing out GW2 a.s.a.p.

The team maintaining GW1 is about 5/6 where one of these is only their co-ordinator/manager who makes no contribution. The rest of Arenanet are hard at work on GW2. So you shouldn't really be worried about that and how this is relevan to the Dervish issue, I have no clue.

Quote:

It is ok to give feedback to them. Point out what they did good and might have done better. Give solid constructive ideas for improvement. But please don't treat them like this for the hard work they are doing with a reasonable small team.

The team has been fairly busy bringing out all these changes plus gearing up for Winds of Change and 6th Anniversary. But as you say earlier, Guild Wars has always prided itself on a good PvP system. So in fairness, the team should take extra care in trying to balance and maintain the updates much better than they have been doing for the past 3 years. They have consistently created flavour of the month builds with no intention of fixing them for up to 6 months (they have been quoted on this already) in order for the builds to run their course.

Personally, the derv update has taken it a step too far. Ok, Invoke Lightning turned into a spike which actually required co-ordination, but the Derv train has ruined gameplay. As someone has already mentioned, more and more are forced to fight fire with fire and roll Dervs as well. I'm sorry but that is not balanced gameplay at all. that is being forced to play identical builds just so then you have a /roll chance of winning.

Seriously?

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Myself I want to thank Anet for doing your best to still improve this game and adding fresh new things to it.

Yeahwhatevergz4u.

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To make a small suggestion: Try to think bout the people who enjoy playing PvP. I know the numbers aren't what it was used to be, but PvP has always been an important positive point on guildwars. So when adding new fresh things to the game, think bout the PvP-er as well so PvP gets some nice impulse, attracting new players to it without annoying the devoted people that has always been loyal to this part of the game.

This made me Trololol. The people who have posted here and the people who have made sound arguments on this thread ARE PvP players. with the mindset that GW imagined their players to have; people who want equality for all professions and reward players for being skillful with what they do in-game. This dervish update has only attracted the new breed of 2011 braindead players who think there are only 3 maps in Heroes Ascent.

The positive points PvP brought to Guild Wars wasn't the simple player-versus-player theory, it was the purely tactical methods of winning, fps style co-ordination and a simple ratio of skill and reward, as mentioned before (e.g. random bulls/landing bulls).

@Urcscumug: You still see some warriors in certain builds with Dervs where the players wants to bring some KD into the mix.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Godess Charmaine

I am new topvp so be kind, I feel that when ever I have gone into the pvp HA thing its allways either a team of sins, warrors or now derv's that own it out right and I cannot understand why instead of bothering fixing the Builds as such why not just fix ha.

Simple really limit the team so that only your main class is accesabel and limit the amount of classes so that u get 1 derv, 1 warror ,1 sin, 1 mesmer,1 monk so forth or 2 per team set up limiting the overpowerfull team build so it really does come down to the skill of the players

That would ruin spike teams, and as a playerbase where we've seen many spike builds come and go, it would be horrible to see them become banned from gameplay.
HA itself is unique. It was originally coined "Tournament" by Anet because of the progressive style of the maps that were in rotation. Nowadays, you pretty much only see Underworld and Fetid, then you jump to Halls. Sometimes you'll get Shrines. The several different map objectives (annihilation, KotH courtyard, capture points and relic run) meant that several skills have to be integrated into your team in order to be effective at all objectives, which is why you see Song of Concentration (KotH), Make Haste (relic run) and snares (relic run, capture points) as required skills in order to get anywhere in HA.

These new Derv builds have brought on pressure builds and the only way to counter is to use more pressure, cancelling out any spikes or even balance teams because even a 3-man backline (Rt, 2 monks) will eventually struggle versus 3 dervs and 2 migraines. The gameplay is so negative I can't stop mentioning it here on Guru... Le sigh.

Azazello · Apr 25, 2011, 04:59 PM // 16:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by pinkeyflower

How do you balance warriors against other professions when they have been the frontline for the past five or six years? You can't balance a warrior against an ele.

That doesn't seem right, if you can't balance one class against another, what are we discussing?

Fate Crusher · Apr 25, 2011, 05:18 PM // 17:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazello

That doesn't seem right, if you can't balance one class against another, what are we discussing?

-_-

Team. Based. Gameplay... You balance frontline professions with other frontline professions. Each profession can't compete for each role. A monk can't do a warrior's role and vice versa (As much as you'd try, it's pointless).

What he was saying is that the problem isn't to power creep warriors to the Dervish standard; in regards to the OP. Warriors have been the staple frontline for a very good reason, and even more for skilled players who know how to use their utility skills to maximum effect. This is in contrast to the wildly spammable new Dervish which sees them outclass a warrior in all fronts without even breaking a sweat.

Warriors, tbh are the only balanced for PvP profession simply because of it's utility. Other frontliners rely on OP combo chains - removing utility, or spammed skills that have no drawbacks. Sure you can spam bulls strike, but you won't see any benefit from it. All warrior skills come with a cost. Dervish skills have no procc and no drawbacks for bashing your head on your keyboard.

Hope this was simple enough for the PvEers to read.

Azazello · Apr 25, 2011, 05:39 PM // 17:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fate Crusher

-_-

Team. Based. Gameplay... You balance frontline professions with other frontline professions. Each profession can't compete for each role. A monk can't do a warrior's role and vice versa (As much as you'd try, it's pointless).

What he was saying is that the problem isn't to power creep warriors to the Dervish standard; in regards to the OP. Warriors have been the staple frontline for a very good reason, and even more for skilled players who know how to use their utility skills to maximum effect. This is in contrast to the wildly spammable new Dervish which sees them outclass a warrior in all fronts without even breaking a sweat.

Warriors, tbh are the only balanced for PvP profession simply because of it's utility. Other frontliners rely on OP combo chains - removing utility, or spammed skills that have no drawbacks. Sure you can spam bulls strike, but you won't see any benefit from it. All warrior skills come with a cost. Dervish skills have no procc and no drawbacks for bashing your head on your keyboard.

Hope this was simple enough for the PvEers to read.

Well this was the original response I got, but no one responded to the question it leads to, which is 'how is nerfing dervishes the solution to a lack of depth in their gameplay?'

Cuilan · Apr 25, 2011, 06:12 PM // 18:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fate Crusher

Hope this was simple enough for the PvEers to read.

I can't read your posts, use smaller and more simple wording please.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazello

Well this was the original response I got, but no one responded to the question it leads to, which is 'how is nerfing dervishes the solution to a lack of depth in their gameplay?'

It won't, so perhaps that's why it was ignored.

Dervish get pretty hurt in hard mode PvE when there is enough enchantment removal or not enough covering. A Shatter Enchantment is a pretty large spike if it hits a skill like Eternal Aura. The profession is very much a caster, so it would be natural that it wouldn't be just like a warrior.

Spam isn't the opposite of "skill" since a spam build could require some level of skill and a build of a different kind may still not require skill. The word skill is being thrown around a bit much in this thread.

*lemming* · Apr 25, 2011, 06:42 PM // 18:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazello

Well this was the original response I got, but no one responded to the question it leads to, which is 'how is nerfing dervishes the solution to a lack of depth in their gameplay?'

Nerfing dervishes is the solution to a lack of depth in dervish play.

pinkeyflower · Apr 25, 2011, 06:49 PM // 18:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

I can't read your posts, use smaller and more simple wording please.

It won't, so perhaps that's why it was ignored.

Dervish get pretty hurt in hard mode PvE when there is enough enchantment removal or not enough covering. A Shatter Enchantment is a pretty large spike if it hits a skill like Eternal Aura. The profession is very much a caster, so it would be natural that it wouldn't be just like a warrior.

Spam isn't the opposite of "skill" since a spam build could require some level of skill and a build of a different kind may still not require skill. The word skill is being thrown around a bit much in this thread.

Do you realize this discussion is in regards to PvP?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazello

Well this was the original response I got, but no one responded to the question it leads to, which is 'how is nerfing dervishes the solution to a lack of depth in their gameplay?'

If you introduce drawbacks to certain, probably many actually, dervish skills you encourage smart play not to just spam your skills because that is currently the only way to play a dervish. For example, while not a dervish skill look at Frenzy. Powerful effect with powerful drawback which means you cannot perma-IAS unless you want to explode in two seconds. Increasing the recharge and adrenaline costs of certain skills means they cannot be spammed but must be utilized accordingly to maximize their effects. Other skills require a rework so that you can't perma-cripple someone or use instant rupts (whoever thought this was a good idea borders on the extreme of the human mind in my opinion).