Curse

Krill · Apr 29, 2011, 02:16 AM // 02:16

I'm just guessing that this was another random idea anet had that wasn't vetted at all. Happy birthday, more random shit toot toot.

SongOf · Apr 29, 2011, 04:44 AM // 04:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

A flux that reduces enchantment duration by 30% would be equivalent to a skill balance that reduces the duration of all enchantments by 30% with a guarantee that it'll be gone next month. There's not any difference there.

Anyway, I'm curious as to this hatred of a metagame that seems to emanate from the PvE/low end PvP demographic. What's the reasoning behind it, and is this dislike backed by sufficient understanding of what brings it about?

Except that Flux is NOT a skill balance, and that's the entire point. No need to change 30+ of the same type of skill, no need to go back and renerf skills individually, no need to worry about PvP/PvE split versions, etc. etc. The whole point is it introduces change with minimal effort on Anets part.

Also it's pretty obvious that even PvE/low end PvP would have a hatred of the meta: if you refuse to run what's in meta, your chances of being dropped from party increases. it's not just about the current OP builds, but the ease of forming a balanced party. everybody hates building around the odd man of the group

*lemming* · Apr 29, 2011, 10:58 AM // 10:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ethiops

The difference between starcraft builds "correcting" themselves and whats possible in guild wars, is that you can go over to the person's base in starcraft, look at what they're doing, and make educated guesses. You can feasibly change your build on the go and make changes based on what you've scouted of the enemy.

In guild wars you can't exactly scout out your enemy before the fight, see their build, then change your build to compensate for theirs.

So comparing the guild wars metagame, and striving for something similar to the starcraft metagame doesn't exactly work out.

GW's hard counters also usually aren't as strong, though. Given normal builds, it's not likely that you'll lose to a mass hex team because you didn't bring enough hex removal, for instance - it'll be because you didn't execute. It's rather rare that matches will actually be completely won by build selection.

As for BW, we're not talking about specific matches. Instead, we're talking about larger-scale trends - just this season, PvZ was something like 70/30 because of the build that Bisu debuted before Zerg players were able to correct it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Oh and Lemming, Monks have been Mo/W with RC + WoH since forever - something "you're basically forced to run against opponents of similar skill".

Bit of a tangent, but I'd like to point out that before physicals took over again, people actually ran PnH and LS and AoF on prot bars. Of course, if you're trying to argue about the ubiquity of monks, that's a whole different can of worms.

*lemming* · Apr 29, 2011, 11:07 AM // 11:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by SongOf

Except that Flux is NOT a skill balance, and that's the entire point. No need to change 30+ of the same type of skill, no need to go back and renerf skills individually, no need to worry about PvP/PvE split versions, etc. etc. The whole point is it introduces change with minimal effort on Anets part.

Yeah, it is. They even allude to it in the developer update:

"The introduction of Flux is a compelling tool to help us keep our competitive formats dynamic"

An example of some other updates that were introduced to "keep our competitive formats dynamic":

http://www.guildwiki.org/Game_updates/20080807
http://www.guildwiki.org/Game_updates/20081211

Change can be good. Blind change for the sake of change is bad.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SongOf

Also it's pretty obvious that even PvE/low end PvP would have a hatred of the meta: if you refuse to run what's in meta, your chances of being dropped from party increases. it's not just about the current OP builds, but the ease of forming a balanced party. everybody hates building around the odd man of the group

Do you really expect random people to probably lower their probability of doing well just to cater to someone in the party who wants to be a rebel? Regardless of whether you're PvEing or PvPing, if you're doing it with other people, then you're playing a team game. You wanting to run something completely nonstandard is at least somewhat selfish. If you can persuade them to let you run it, then you're good. If you can't, then try running the bar when you're playing with friends; they're more apt to be cooperative.

If you're running something weird, make sure it's for a good reason, and not just for the sake of being contrary. The latter represents the kind of poor attitude that's the biggest barrier to ascending to higher levels of play.

thedukesd · Apr 29, 2011, 12:34 PM // 12:34

So anet actually think that this will revive codex arena? Will eradicate rank discrimination in HA? Will fix the waiting times in FA/JQ? Will fix the sync teams in RA (stumme admited they can but provided some nonsense arguments why they don't do it cause well it's in his hand to bring back team arena)? Will revive pvp? Will make paragons viable in pvp? Will bring more people in AB to be actually able to play a game? Will this fix the report abuse issue (when you refuse to resign and the other team fails big time to kill you; and you don't have running skills on your bar)?

For me the answers to above questions are all NO. So this will not really improve pvp cause actually not the meta is causing the curent pvp problems.

And I really doubt that lone wolves will actually do something else then die fast.

Also I really doubt that some classes meta (at least 2 but I actually think the number is higher) will actually change.

DiogoSilva · Apr 29, 2011, 01:17 PM // 13:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by thedukesd

So anet actually think that this will revive codex arena? Will eradicate rank discrimination in HA? Will fix the waiting times in FA/JQ? Will fix the sync teams in RA (stumme admited they can but provided some nonsense arguments why they don't do it cause well it's in his hand to bring back team arena)? Will revive pvp? Will make paragons viable in pvp? Will bring more people in AB to be actually able to play a game? Will this fix the report abuse issue (when you refuse to resign and the other team fails big time to kill you; and you don't have running skills on your bar)?

For me the answers to above questions are all NO. So this will not really improve pvp cause actually not the meta is causing the curent pvp problems.

And I really doubt that lone wolves will actually do something else then die fast.

Also I really doubt that some classes meta (at least 2 but I actually think the number is higher) will actually change.

If you have read the developers update, you would know this Flux is just a precursor to a future PvP build that will change rewards, pvp titles and the incentive to play some of the formats.

What John Stumme had said about RA was that the main problem of sync is the gladiator title, and that's what should be "changed". It will probably be so in the future pvp build, but we don't know how yet.

urania · Apr 29, 2011, 01:35 PM // 13:35

the main problem of RA synch is they removed TA. the main reason they removed TA is [insert random bad excuse] (been broken for a long time, so why suddenly just kill it off?). the main reason it was broken was because of lack of interest to fix the few skills that were most rampant and abused in it and relatively late decision to divert the format itself (instead, they diverted CA).

so hands off the glad title. lock it and implement a split title for RA alone. or just lock it and dont implement any titles for ra, which would be best, really.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

If you're running something weird, make sure it's for a good reason, and not just for the sake of being contrary. The latter represents the kind of poor attitude that's the biggest barrier to ascending to higher levels of play.

and yet many prefer to be something "special".

^should be a sticky serving as an introduction to RA thread, to be honest.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DiogoSilva

If you have read the developers update, you would know this Flux is just a precursor to a future PvP build that will change rewards, pvp titles and the incentive to play some of the formats.

this flux global effect addition gives off a somewhat gloomy aura. wonder what kind of pleasant surprises anet has in stock this time. not that it matters that much in particular, that is.

Jeydra · Apr 29, 2011, 01:44 PM // 13:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

the main problem of RA synch is they removed TA. the main reason they removed TA is [insert random bad excuse] (been broken for a long time, so why suddenly just kill it off?). the main reason it was broken was because of lack of interest to fix the few skills that were most rampant and abused in it and relatively late decision to divert the format itself (instead, they diverted CA).

I'm using Diversion on Competitive Arena!

@lemming - so many skills have been completely standard for so long. When Warriors were last viable, how many did not have Bull's Strike? How many Monks do not have Patient Spirit or Guardian or Cure Hex? How many Rangers did not have Apply Poison or Natural Stride or Distracting Shot etc? Before there was Healing Burst, there was only WoH (for a long time), too.

Still Number One · Apr 29, 2011, 02:25 PM // 14:25

This flux thing is interesting, and not at all surprising to me. I seem to remember back when Izzy was doing skill balance that there was a quote essentially saying his job as a skill balancer wasn't to balance the game but instead shake up the meta so that it changes and doesn't become stagnant.

So I've always felt/known that A.Net's intention when it comes to skill changes was never to remove power creep, or promote balance, but instead to introduce new ways of playing. It is why the majority of PvPers cite those 40 elite skill buff updates to be two of the worst in the history of Guild Wars and A.Net constantly looks at them like they are some holy icon on what a successful skill balance looks like.

My opinion is that of lemmings, change for the sake of change is a terrible thing. Unfortunately that has never been and never will be A.Net's stance on things. Change for the sake of change is their number one priority when it comes to game updates.

ErrantVenture · Apr 29, 2011, 02:54 PM // 14:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

I'm using Diversion on Competitive Arena!

@lemming - so many skills have been completely standard for so long. When Warriors were last viable, how many did not have Bull's Strike? How many Monks do not have Patient Spirit or Guardian or Cure Hex? How many Rangers did not have Apply Poison or Natural Stride or Distracting Shot etc? Before there was Healing Burst, there was only WoH (for a long time), too.

Why is that a bad thing?

Skyy High · Apr 29, 2011, 04:39 PM // 16:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by thedukesd

So anet actually think that this will revive codex arena? Will eradicate rank discrimination in HA? Will fix the waiting times in FA/JQ? Will fix the sync teams in RA (stumme admited they can but provided some nonsense arguments why they don't do it cause well it's in his hand to bring back team arena)? Will revive pvp? Will make paragons viable in pvp? Will bring more people in AB to be actually able to play a game? Will this fix the report abuse issue (when you refuse to resign and the other team fails big time to kill you; and you don't have running skills on your bar)?

For me the answers to above questions are all NO. So this will not really improve pvp cause actually not the meta is causing the curent pvp problems.

Chill. Out. They're not stopping with this.

Jeydra · Apr 29, 2011, 05:21 PM // 17:21

Lemming quote, relevant part highlighted:

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

Every BW metagame which was imbalanced eventually corrected itself, sometimes through the introduction of new maps, but more often through the incorporation of builds which directly or indirectly counter them.

In principle, something like the last pre-derv update metagame functioned something like that. You had around ten or so builds that were more than viable divided between the three major build archetypes, none of which were incredibly overpowered relative to the others. Unfortunately, the introduction of dervishes has brought genuine format-warping bars to the metagame, bars that you're basically forced to run against opponents of similar skill, just because they're so grossly overpowered that there exist no real counters to them.

They've been around for quite a while ...

jazilla · Apr 29, 2011, 09:33 PM // 21:33

This update looks good. I like that it mixes up play without destroying builds people find fun. I would like to see the changes happen every three days though, but oh well. I like it.

AndrewSX · Apr 29, 2011, 10:57 PM // 22:57

Yes, isn't THAT impressive change for playstiles, but still a interesting one. Done RA before..good monks try to stay in earshot range of allies, meeles are more vulnerable to direct damage(e.g: Invoke) and little things like this. A little of variation at least.

Bars T · Apr 30, 2011, 01:09 AM // 01:09

Would of tought they would of fixed the turtles a nd jugs getting stuck bug first before they added new things to it

ItsJustMe · Apr 30, 2011, 01:29 AM // 01:29

I kind of like the idea of a 'global' change, but this seems like it's a bit overpowered. I'dve liked to seen a 5% swing on both sides, personally.
These changes should add flavor and should not be something to be Build-Wars'd.

I have a feeling these fluxes will mostly just make monks either work much harder or feel more frustrated.

-i

PS anyone think this is a prelude to GW2 'world bonuses'? I still think ANet is using GW1 as a guinea pig.

Vazze · Apr 30, 2011, 02:06 AM // 02:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by ErrantVenture

Why is that a bad thing?

Because stalled meta is one of the reason why DotA clones and their friends owned gw pvp so badly.

This effect is way to small to change anything other than high end builds. Dynamic balance is nice but it has to penetrate the entire player base to matter.

Stormz · Apr 30, 2011, 03:00 AM // 03:00

Well i put it to test in RA, im not against it, its a fresh breeze after that most awfull derv update.

mr monk rupsie · Apr 30, 2011, 07:38 AM // 07:38

I have to say, the "lone wolf" have kind of a katalyst effect towards 4vs4 encounters in AB. Once 1 of the team breaks and start running around in different directions they get 10% more dmg (the warriors then get a big smile on their face).

On the other hand solocappers are now slightly more powerfull.

Brian the Gladiator · Apr 30, 2011, 08:44 AM // 08:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

Anyway, I'm curious as to this hatred of a metagame that seems to emanate from the PvE/low end PvP demographic. What's the reasoning behind it, and is this dislike backed by sufficient understanding of what brings it about?

Guild Wars used to be about disruption, shutdown, positioning, and adaptability. Now it's about positioning.... and going boom on your opponent's face. It is intellectually vapid. Any competent judge would see this immediately. Remember when "balanced" used to be the most powerful build? Anything straying for this metagame is going to be met with scorn and dismay from any person who wishes to play a game based in strategy and team cooperation... which is ultimately what guild wars has always been about.

I'm curious as to this lack of hatred of the metagame that seems to emanate from people named lemming. Also, citing that those who hate the meta are the ones that are "low end" or "PvE" only stands to reiterate that the people who once loved GvG are now either driven out of Guild Wars entirely, or have left to PvE and those who have entered in the wake of those who were driven away from GvG are simply HA kids who have now found a new format of PvP that executes in basically the exact same way HA did about 3 years ago.