Curse

Bright Star Shine · May 15, 2011, 12:47 PM // 12:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by cthulhu reborn

I would like to suggest that if you take SF out of the picture, how would you do UW and what would it take to do UW if you don't bring sins? That, I think is at the core of the matter. Are there reasonable ways to do UW without sins?

You do realize that all exp teams take R/A's and E/Me's, right? Because you know, they're better than ssins? Just less failproof.

cthulhu reborn · May 15, 2011, 01:04 PM // 13:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bright Star Shine

You do realize that all exp teams take R/A's and E/Me's, right? Because you know, they're better than ssins? Just less failproof.

I don't know all exp teams, so I cannot comment on what all of them do. I also doubt you know all of them but let's ignore the generalisation for the sake of the discussion. So enlighten us, are those teams able to let people of all classes participate in these teams or do these two classes simply replace the sin's role and the rest is the same?

I find your indication interesting here, but ToA chat is all about t this and t that, so it's hard to make out the differences. I've recently returned to the game and so it's all a bit chinese to me. In fact, it's hard to get into it because no one would allow me in a team because I am not "experienced" because I didn't magically know what tway was.

So far though it looks like what always happens. Someone finds out a gimmick build and that's it till it gets nerfed. I am just looking for ideas, where at least in NM you can do UW in a reasonable time using a variety of classes. R/A and E/Me sounds interesting but without knowing what skills they are running I can't really comment on them.

You can't assume that everybody knows all this stuff for various reasons. I have played GW a lot in the first 4 years and not as much in the last couple of years and so more or less like a new player all this stuff just seems more of the same problem that we've had many times before. Although I will say that with Ursan at least all classes could participate. Still, it was very boring just the same.

Bright Star Shine · May 15, 2011, 01:36 PM // 13:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by cthulhu reborn

I don't know all exp teams, so I cannot comment on what all of them do. I also doubt you know all of them but let's ignore the generalisation for the sake of the discussion. So enlighten us, are those teams able to let people of all classes participate in these teams or do these two classes simply replace the sin's role and the rest is the same?

The classes that can partake in UWSC are: ssins, eles, mesmers, rits, necro's and rangers. Maybe monks, but never seen a build for that. So that only rules out dervs, warrs and para's.

Quote:

I find your indication interesting here, but ToA chat is all about t this and t that, so it's hard to make out the differences. I've recently returned to the game and so it's all a bit chinese to me. In fact, it's hard to get into it because no one would allow me in a team because I am not "experienced" because I didn't magically know what tway was.

If you want to learn UWSC (something I don't advise cause I hate it, but some people enjoy it, so) I'd look for a UWSC who's willing to teach. You'll probably be in a low lvl guild for a couple weeks, but after that you can move on to more exp guilds once you've built enough experience. I don't know the policy of any of the high-end UWSC guilds, so I wouldn't know how their recruitment towards UW works.

Quote:

So far though it looks like what always happens. Someone finds out a gimmick build and that's it till it gets nerfed. I am just looking for ideas, where at least in NM you can do UW in a reasonable time using a variety of classes. R/A and E/Me sounds interesting but without knowing what skills they are running I can't really comment on them.

pvx is still your friend.

Quote:

You can't assume that everybody knows all this stuff for various reasons. I have played GW a lot in the first 4 years and not as much in the last couple of years and so more or less like a new player all this stuff just seems more of the same problem that we've had many times before. Although I will say that with Ursan at least all classes could participate. Still, it was very boring just the same.

Well, I assume you know this stuff because you make it sound as if you know a lot about it, hence why I comment this way, if you're new to the game -well, sort of, you know what I mean- then don't go parading around telling what should and should not be, if you don't even know the details about it.

Essence Snow · May 15, 2011, 02:28 PM // 14:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bright Star Shine

If you want to learn UWSC (something I don't advise cause I hate it, but some people enjoy it, so) I'd look for a UWSC who's willing to teach. You'll probably be in a low lvl guild for a couple weeks, but after that you can move on to more exp guilds once you've built enough experience. I don't know the policy of any of the high-end UWSC guilds, so I wouldn't know how their recruitment towards UW works.

Yeah..I don't reccommend this at all. (unless your guildless and have tolerence for specifics) If you want to PUG uwsc..just go to pvx watch all the vids, get the right set up for your area and join pug practice groups. Once you get your area down..you may either buy stones...(i know utter bs system) borrow some or continue on in practice groups till you acquire more.
There is no need to leave your current guild just for sc's.

cthulhu reborn · May 15, 2011, 02:42 PM // 14:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bright Star Shine

The classes that can partake in UWSC are: ssins, eles, mesmers, rits, necro's and rangers. Maybe monks, but never seen a build for that. So that only rules out dervs, warrs and para's.

If you want to learn UWSC (something I don't advise cause I hate it, but some people enjoy it, so) I'd look for a UWSC who's willing to teach. You'll probably be in a low lvl guild for a couple weeks, but after that you can move on to more exp guilds once you've built enough experience. I don't know the policy of any of the high-end UWSC guilds, so I wouldn't know how their recruitment towards UW works.

pvx is still your friend.

Well, I assume you know this stuff because you make it sound as if you know a lot about it, hence why I comment this way, if you're new to the game -well, sort of, you know what I mean- then don't go parading around telling what should and should not be, if you don't even know the details about it.

So basically, 4 classes are not being used.

I agree I do not wish to learn UWSC but it does make you wonder what people are talking about.

PvX is a bad friend in my opinion. It's the lack of inspiration site that is used more as a rule than a help, in my view.

I know alot about the game but not the more recent flavours of the month or period builds. I will never claim to know everything for that matter. What I do see is the same tendencies that I don't care for much repeating themselves. So it that sense I can still see that some things never change.

Bottom line for me is still that SC is a bad thing in general. I see it as something that devaluates those parts of the game that are being speed cleared. It also makes it that certain classes are not wanted. At the same time I do understand why people do it. Because if you don't do it, it really takes way too long to get anywhere.

So either you get on the SC bandwagon or it takes too long. Either way there's a problem and that's what's too bad to me. My monk has the UW statue in her HoM and now monks aren't even really part of it? Well, times change but the principle is still the same. It's just shifted the problem to different classes.

Well, at least it seems that for GW2 they are doing things that may avoid this sort of thing. Taking out a dedicated healer class and getting rid of dual classes might go a long way. We'll see. For GW1, I have my complaints but I don't expect them to invest in the game in a significant way anymore, but we can still hope. ^^

Bright Star Shine · May 15, 2011, 03:03 PM // 15:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by cthulhu reborn

Bottom line for me is still that SC is a bad thing in general. I see it as something that devaluates those parts of the game that are being speed cleared. It also makes it that certain classes are not wanted. At the same time I do understand why people do it. Because if you don't do it, it really takes way too long to get anywhere.

That's your opinion, in my opinion SCs don't devaluate those parts of the game. I don't know if you remember how UW balanced way was back in '05-'06 but for the few balanced ways I joined back in those days, the most we got done, ever was like 3 quests. It was a pain, excruciatingly dull and boring etc. People that go on and on about how tank and spank is so bad and that it has raped this game in every possible hole imaginable should stop and think about it. Those areas -with the sole exception of UW- were designed to be tanked and spanked. DoA, FoW, Urgoz, Deep, all those areas are packed with mobs, what, we were supposed to take them down one by one? Don't be so naive. DoA especially, it's packed with big, strong, squishy mobs that patrol ad infinitum in the same paths. No one is going to tell me that tank and spank was never supposed to happen.

Why is it so bad that we can clear most of those areas in about 15-40 minutes depending on which area? They once were very tough yes, and took 2-3 hours, but players have found ways to speed things up, which is a natural process. If elite areas took 2hours to complete, always, it would result in people going "meh" and abandoning them, looking for more fun stuff to do.

Another thing I'd like to address. All this whining the entire time about "omg, SC's are bad, because I can't play my paragon in there" is such a load of BS. If you wanna SC, get a SC charr, i.e. a ssin, mes, rit, ranger, ele, w/e and play that. Outside of SC's you can play your para or derv all you want. Class hate is an illusion, you have 8 charr slots for a reason.

Net The Nabi · May 15, 2011, 07:19 PM // 19:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bright Star Shine

The classes that can partake in UWSC are: ssins, eles, mesmers, rits, necro's and rangers. Maybe monks, but never seen a build for that. So that only rules out dervs, warrs and para's.

Monk is for t1. I believe its Mo/E to maintain spellbreaker.

Swingline · May 15, 2011, 07:36 PM // 19:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bright Star Shine

Well, no offense dude, but you're the one that went grossely off topic... The subject isn't SF or SCs, it's whether or not we can divide UW in sections.. An idea we shot down a couple pages ago, since then it's been about SCs and SF instead...

It is because of SF and SCs that this idea was even brought up.

Fay Vert · May 15, 2011, 08:05 PM // 20:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by cthulhu reborn

Personally I do think that the SC/SF issue relates to the subject because it's the way people succeed at it currently, just like it was Ursanway some years ago.

Also, SC/SF is the reason why ANet made UW so hard, creating the very problem this thread is discussing. Rather than solve the problem, ANet chose to make it worse.

cthulhu reborn · May 15, 2011, 08:33 PM // 20:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bright Star Shine

That's your opinion, in my opinion SCs don't devaluate those parts of the game. I don't know if you remember how UW balanced way was back in '05-'06 but for the few balanced ways I joined back in those days, the most we got done, ever was like 3 quests. It was a pain, excruciatingly dull and boring etc. People that go on and on about how tank and spank is so bad and that it has raped this game in every possible hole imaginable should stop and think about it. Those areas -with the sole exception of UW- were designed to be tanked and spanked. DoA, FoW, Urgoz, Deep, all those areas are packed with mobs, what, we were supposed to take them down one by one? Don't be so naive. DoA especially, it's packed with big, strong, squishy mobs that patrol ad infinitum in the same paths. No one is going to tell me that tank and spank was never supposed to happen.

Why is it so bad that we can clear most of those areas in about 15-40 minutes depending on which area? They once were very tough yes, and took 2-3 hours, but players have found ways to speed things up, which is a natural process. If elite areas took 2hours to complete, always, it would result in people going "meh" and abandoning them, looking for more fun stuff to do.

Another thing I'd like to address. All this whining the entire time about "omg, SC's are bad, because I can't play my paragon in there" is such a load of BS. If you wanna SC, get a SC charr, i.e. a ssin, mes, rit, ranger, ele, w/e and play that. Outside of SC's you can play your para or derv all you want. Class hate is an illusion, you have 8 charr slots for a reason.

Yes that was my opinion. I was very careful in writing it in a way that that was clear.

And you see, this is exactly the thing I don't like. Class hate is not an illusion. Perhaps you just think that because you can't imagine it being a problem for a very simple reason: you don't have that problem. But here's a news flash: not everybody is the same as you are. You may think it's an illusion but when UW and DoA were being done some years ago there was exactly that.

People got 4 character slots initially btw, not 8. And there still are 10 classes anyways. So there were always fewer character slots than classes. I still have classes I don't like to play like the ranger for example.

Now please, just because you are unable to see another point of view doesn't mean it doesn't exist or is an illusion. It was complained about when DoA came out and Anet's response was Ursan.

Now, I feel that you miss a point here. I don't mind people clearing UW faster. In fact I wish it didn't take so much time. It's the difference between a normal team and a sc team that I think is ridiculous. Why would Anet reward people for learning a gimmick and repeating it over and over. This is what I don't get. And even if I say, ok, I don't get that, but so be it...even then I don't see why there has to be such a huge difference between the two types of gameplay. Why?

Also saying that people will speed things up naturally doesn't quite apply here. It's true that there is that progression, but SC is not that natural progression. It's what Anet did to certain skills, in this case SF (and previously Ursan), and things like cons that made it possible. Not natural progression.

Strangely the result is that the hardcore people who put in more time generally, need less time and the casual players who often don't want to or can't spend 4 hours in UW have to spend that time there because they are not into the sc stuff. It seems like a contradiction to me that Anet does this. But again that's my logic, my opinion.

oscarmk · May 15, 2011, 09:03 PM // 21:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by cthulhu reborn

Yes that was my opinion. I was very careful in writing it in a way that that was clear.

And you see, this is exactly the thing I don't like. Class hate is not an illusion. Perhaps you just think that because you can't imagine it being a problem for a very simple reason: you don't have that problem. But here's a news flash: not everybody is the same as you are. You may think it's an illusion but when UW and DoA were being done some years ago there was exactly that.

People got 4 character slots initially btw, not 8. And there still are 10 classes anyways. So there were always fewer character slots than classes. I still have classes I don't like to play like the ranger for example.

Now please, just because you are unable to see another point of view doesn't mean it doesn't exist or is an illusion. It was complained about when DoA came out and Anet's response was Ursan.

Now, I feel that you miss a point here. I don't mind people clearing UW faster. In fact I wish it didn't take so much time. It's the difference between a normal team and a sc team that I think is ridiculous. Why would Anet reward people for learning a gimmick and repeating it over and over. This is what I don't get. And even if I say, ok, I don't get that, but so be it...even then I don't see why there has to be such a huge difference between the two types of gameplay. Why?

Also saying that people will speed things up naturally doesn't quite apply here. It's true that there is that progression, but SC is not that natural progression. It's what Anet did to certain skills, in this case SF (and previously Ursan), and things like cons that made it possible. Not natural progression.

Strangely the result is that the hardcore people who put in more time generally, need less time and the casual players who often don't want to or can't spend 4 hours in UW have to spend that time there because they are not into the sc stuff. It seems like a contradiction to me that Anet does this. But again that's my logic, my opinion.

Smiter boon SF and all the problems in GW are solved, including of course inflation.

cthulhu reborn · May 15, 2011, 09:17 PM // 21:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by oscarmk

Smiter boon SF and all the problems in GW are solved, including of course inflation.

Well, where would we be without you?

oscarmk · May 16, 2011, 03:28 AM // 03:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by cthulhu reborn

Well, where would we be without you?

definitely not where you are now.

Lasai · May 16, 2011, 04:53 AM // 04:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bright Star Shine

Well, no offense dude, but you're the one that went grossely off topic... The subject isn't SF or SCs, it's whether or not we can divide UW in sections.. An idea we shot down a couple pages ago, since then it's been about SCs and SF instead...

An Idea YOU shot down? I had no clue you worked for ArenaNet.

The majority of posters actually seem to have no problem with the concept of splitting the quests off in smaller sections.

Personally, I don't care one iota what SC/SF people do. They will do what they do. I care about changes that would benefit a lot of people not currently doing content because of a time issue. It is wasted as a farm area only, and efforts to curb the farming there only seem to effect those who would like to finish the area as a part of playing the game. I do not think casual (by casual I mean time played per session) players should have to participate in the SC community in order to simply finish a part of the game.

Bright Star Shine · May 16, 2011, 10:57 AM // 10:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lasai

An Idea YOU shot down? I had no clue you worked for ArenaNet.

The majority of posters actually seem to have no problem with the concept of splitting the quests off in smaller sections.

Personally, I don't care one iota what SC/SF people do. They will do what they do. I care about changes that would benefit a lot of people not currently doing content because of a time issue. It is wasted as a farm area only, and efforts to curb the farming there only seem to effect those who would like to finish the area as a part of playing the game. I do not think casual (by casual I mean time played per session) players should have to participate in the SC community in order to simply finish a part of the game.

Well, I think we established that if we would split up the quests as they are now, we would result in nothing but pure abuse, overfarm and UW being toned down to being easier than VQ'ing Plains of Jarin. You could take optimized builds for every quests separately, which will remove a lot of the challenge UW has now: come up with a build that will make you able to do it all. Tbh, I don't give a rats ass about UWSC, so they can nerf that all they want, I agree that the changes are unfair towards non-SC'ers, but the proposal of splitting it up makes no sense what so ever tbh. It would make it such a cakewalk that it's beyond ridiculous.

Elnino · May 16, 2011, 11:13 AM // 11:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bright Star Shine

Well, I think we established that if we would split up the quests as they are now, we would result in nothing but pure abuse, overfarm and UW being toned down to being easier than VQ'ing Plains of Jarin. You could take optimized builds for every quests separately, which will remove a lot of the challenge UW has now: come up with a build that will make you able to do it all. Tbh, I don't give a rats ass about UWSC, so they can nerf that all they want, I agree that the changes are unfair towards non-SC'ers, but the proposal of splitting it up makes no sense what so ever tbh. It would make it such a cakewalk that it's beyond ridiculous.

You're saying that as if underworld has never been abused and overfarmed, lol. It has already been suggested in this thread that completing the chamber should be required everytime you enter underworld. It won't be the perfect solution but it will help.

Bellatrixa · May 16, 2011, 11:50 AM // 11:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bright Star Shine

The classes that can partake in UWSC are: ssins, eles, mesmers, rits, necro's and rangers. Maybe monks, but never seen a build for that. So that only rules out dervs, warrs and para's.

There's a balancedway variant that's predominant in my alliance which uses monks and dervs. A warrior bar has been in development for inclusion and I daresay someday someone will get round to making a para build slot in there somewhere. Of course, it's not a pugable method like tway so...

To the QQing about certain classes not being allowed in various speedclears: MAKE THE BUILDS YOURSELF! I'm sure willing guildies/allies will allow you to test the builds with them, or find like-minded people who want to mess around with builds and attempt to change things up. Just because it's on PvX doesn't mean it's the most effective.

If you want to complain about length of areas, try doing a full run of DoA balancedway and see how long that takes you (and I don't mean DwG or Frost as they're not "balanced" by any means), however I do know there are people out there who have devised team builds that can include any profession and clear in a reasonable amount of time. Of course, this takes some skill.

At the end of the day, you shouldn't just be able to walk into an elite area, hit 12345678 and finish. For those of you claiming that SC teams are really challenging, that depends on the role. I can tell you right now that EoE in FoWSC is a walk in the park (not to mention that FoWSC in general is a lot less challenging than other elite areas) compared to the job of say the MT. As for UWSC, EMoing isn't tough. There's nothing stopping you taking the tway (or any of the other methods posted on there) builds off PvX, watching a video or two and trying it out for yourself. As I said, it's all about finding like-minded people. I quite often see groups in ToA askin for people for practice runs. There was a thread on these very forums that was trying to get people together for UWSC practice runs. Your friends list is there for a reason as are these forums. Some team builds won't be posted on PvX due to desire not to have the entire GW community running around with them. Part because of "elitism" in that credit could be stolen for ideas, part because they're not wanted to become meta, part because PvX can be a pile of wank when it comes to vetting builds. But just because you can't find it on PvX doesn't mean it doesn't exist or that you're not free to create it yourself, also just because it's on PvX doesn't mean it's trash. PvX is a good starting place for builds and ideas. My advice if you want to create builds is open up PvX, paw-ned and Guild Wars, then be creative.

More on topic: I completely agree that splitting up UW without causing it to become more farmable than it already is would be nigh on impossible and would simply cause MORE arguments and calls for nerfing this that and the other.

In short: there ARE ways of doing it in less than 3 hours, be it SC or balancedway. If you don't want to put the effort into learning how to do those methods then that's your own problem, same as you could complete the rest of the game with nothing but Frenzy and Mending on your bar if you don't want to put the effort into getting or learning about other skills. As I stated before, I hear no cries about how you can get increased amounts of gems from chests in DoA if you do a full run so why so much QQ about UW? You make more money from DoA anyway. Last time I checked the market wasn't entirely awash with mini Dhuums.

darktyco · May 16, 2011, 02:00 PM // 14:00

I would love it if UW quest completion was persistent, even if Chamber was required each run. Speed clearing is already so much more efficient (and less expensive) than rezoning in order to use specialized builds for different quests that I don't really believe the area will become much more farmable, just less of a pain to complete the whole thing. It is somewhat telling that you don't hear anyone calling for DoA or Slaver's to be switched to the UW's pita format.

Arm · May 16, 2011, 02:29 PM // 14:29

why split uw up to make it easier? There's a thread earlier about someone wanting to make bfla harder again, what would happen if you made uw easier? devalue items, and make clearing it a joke. And despite all the arguements contrarily splitting uw up would make it EASIER.

Despite what you think, it takes a lot of practice and learning to get good times at uwsc (let alone not fail which is what most pug groups in toa you see do). When you think about the amount of ig money/cons etc... used to pioneer these clears and then the amount of time invested it makes a lot of sense.

Anything you want to get good at you need to invest a lot of effort. This is true in all walks of life, you don't just start off good at something complex if you have absolutely no knowledge of it. Think languages, music, etc, etc...

Then some of these people get all elitist and jealous and keep it to themselves (which is fine, i really don't care it takes all kinds of people in this world) and others feel the need to share the wealth/knowledge.

The uwsc you're talking about is what? 3-4 years old?

I mean, come on, it really hasn't changed that much since people were sc'ing with all ele's with a sf with no damage cap ;P

And on these forums are tons of people that want to do uw non-sc style, either respond to their posts or start your own, and as stated so many times nm uw gets you the statue, you get to open the chest and is not near the hardness level of hm.

nuff said

Kunder · May 16, 2011, 02:29 PM // 14:29

Make the UW quests like the DoA areas. i.e., if you do them all at once you get increasingly good drops from each quest chest. Don't make it anything amazing, but say 1 ecto drop + 1 for each quest already completed for the entire group (average player in an 8 person group would get 4-5 ectos for the entire quest chain). Just make sure to nerf drops for solo farming (can't have them getting 200k+ worth of ectos in one run), and aggressively nerf imba crap like SF and other stuff.