Curse

Swingline · May 14, 2011, 07:12 AM // 07:12

Any level headed person knows speed clearing content that's supposed to provide a challenge is a bad thing. Your supposed to moderately clear a HM dungeon or an elite area by the developers standards which in this case is 45 minutes to an hour for dungeons and an hour and a half for elite areas with 7 heroes.

The fact you can ignore 90% of the mobs in game with Shadow Form is a huge flaw and it is ANets fault for not caring about balance. If speed clears and other major game flaws never existed the game would not be as stagnant as it is today with people doing normal timed runs. This all stems from the fact the developers created a broken game mechanic by creating skills that ignore spells 100% of the time.

By no means is this any of the players fault, people will use the fastest and most efficient way to do tasks and its only imperfect human nature to seek these ways out regardless of future consequences to anyone other than themselves. Especially on the internet

At this point it is a fact that Shadow Form and Speed Clears will not change. ANet chose a path for the game, some of it was intended and some not but its nearing its end with GW2 on the horizon and right now they wont just suddenly fix major things that should have been fixed from the beginning.

Someone said on another thread that Anet baked the cake, players just sat down and ate. Well its very hard to suddenly fix the recipe while its already baked and on their plates. Lets hope they get the recipe right this time around.

Horus Moonlight · May 14, 2011, 07:27 AM // 07:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Net The Nabi

And why would the people who SC defend SF? Hmmm I wonder, maybe because they are the ones who use it most? Maybe because its there style of play you are calling to be thrown away? Speed clearing doesn't effect any of you're game if you choose to stay away from it, with the exception of trading/game economy. I understand the skeles and dhumm where placed in UW as a result of SCing, but Skeles really aren't a big deal, they are quite easy to kill with or without an 8 man team, and Dhumm just takes planning.

I haven't bothered to follow this thread closely but the bolded part is a pretty poor reason not to touch SF. Believe it or not, PvE was balanced (relatively) at one point and it is this mentality that allows the current PvE to be a loljumpinheadfirstandwatchthemobmelt fest. Just because SF is a staple in a subset of the PvE community does not mean it's free from targeted balancing.

I find it slightly odd that you feel "you're style of play" shouldn't be touched but see no issue when it impacts "trading/economy" and affects others' gameplay ("skeles and dhuum where [sic] placed in UW as a result of SCing"). Seems slightly selfish, no?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Net The Nabi

I find people who act high and mighty because they don't do a certain thing to be hysterical. Its like the people who play an instrument and say, oh I don't listen to x band because even though their songs are catchy and the lyrics have meaning, the song isn't musically technical enough for me. I only listen to Dream Theater and Rush.

This analogy isn't apt at all.

Jeydra · May 14, 2011, 07:37 AM // 07:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Net The Nabi

I referred to pugs not as bad players, but rather as an example that SF doesn't make you invincible when its clear not EVERYONE who tries with it succeeds.

My point is there is no reason as to why SF or any maintainable spell prot at this point in the game should be nerfed so why call for it? It deserved to be nerfed at some points, and things were changed.

And why would the people who SC defend SF? Hmmm I wonder, maybe because they are the ones who use it most? Maybe because its there style of play you are calling to be thrown away? Speed clearing doesn't effect any of you're game if you choose to stay away from it, with the exception of trading/game economy. I understand the skeles and dhumm where placed in UW as a result of SCing, but Skeles really aren't a big deal, they are quite easy to kill with or without an 8 man team, and Dhumm just takes planning.

I find people who act high and mighty because they don't do a certain thing to be hysterical. Its like the people who play an instrument and say, oh I don't listen to x band because even though their songs are catchy and the lyrics have meaning, the song isn't musically technical enough for me. I only listen to Dream Theater and Rush.

So bad players die while farming Vaettirs -> Obsidian Flesh doesn't really make you invulnerable. Really? Who cares? Who cares what bad players do anyway? What if I tell you I die with pre-nerf SF, does that make pre-nerf SF balanced? Good players ARE able to make themselves invulnerable using Shadow Form. THAT is what matters.

You don't see any reason not to nerf SF even though 1 player with SF will beat 1 player + 7H without SF? And be twice as fast while doing it? In fact I'm pretty confident that 1 player with SF will beat 8 players with cons without SF in some areas. Balance.

If what you have written - and I directly quote here: "I don't think of SCing as a vital community service, but this game economy and the game overall would have imo died long long ago without it" - were true, then we should expect to see non-SC people begging that there be no nerf to Shadow Form, because without Shadow Form the game economy and the game dies. But no non-SC player is begging that there be no nerf to SF. Why?

You live in an illusionary world where SC'ing is good for the community, even though the community expressly says otherwise. It's the same kind of reasoning that validates raping women because "they secretly enjoy it anyway, no matter what they are saying". Ridiculous.

The fact that you can run through mobs as though they don't exist with SF and related skills is a huge flaw.

Elnino · May 14, 2011, 08:30 AM // 08:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Net The Nabi

I referred to pugs not as bad players, but rather as an example that SF doesn't make you invincible when its clear not EVERYONE who tries with it succeeds.

Just because some people fail at it, doesn't mean it isn't over powered. Those people that have "failed" are probably beginners and you don't judged a skill's effectiveness based on how successful beginners are. I repeat, it requires practice but it doesn't change the fact that it will make you invincible.

Quote:

My point is there is no reason as to why SF or any maintainable spell prot at this point in the game should be nerfed so why call for it? It deserved to be nerfed at some points, and things were changed.

Considering that it's pre Feb 2010 state has been basically split into two skills (shroud) and it's primary drawback being removed while still being able to be maintained is a good enough reason that it needs a change.

Missing HB · May 14, 2011, 08:54 AM // 08:54

An other issue like someone said though would be how to buy stuff... Today , we can say that the only way to get money fast is by doing those farms repetitively ( not to say that other farms aren't worth , but they usually give ridiculous amounts of gold compared to DoA or UW)....

But now that many items reached incredible prices , how would people buy them?? I noticed in kamadan almost noone is selling/buying anything... Why?? Because all sellers are usually sc'ers , and all supposed buyers are non-scers who got no money....( Of course i'm not referring to low cost items...)...

I'm not saying UW is hard since it's not , but how boring areas are...People already have hard getting 10 ectos so how shall they get 100 or 1000 ....It's quite hard to explain since i already know some will flame me , but if those areas were a bit more fun and not about doing exactly the same thing over and over , maybe things would change ....

Assuming , at this point of the game , that they changed builds to harder ones , the economy situation would get worse...
Just saying that SF is garbage and should have been nerfed yes , but i think it will affect economy a lot though....

Bright Star Shine · May 14, 2011, 11:38 AM // 11:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

I think it's funny that every single player I've seen who has defended SF is an SC player. Lol, classic case of selective blindness.

Well, and every single player I've seen bashing on SF as a skill that ruined this entire game ISN'T a SC player, I don't see your point?

That's like saying: "Every person I've seen defending the nazi's was a nazi." Maybe not the best example, but it was the first thing that popped in my head.

cthulhu reborn · May 14, 2011, 01:18 PM // 13:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bright Star Shine

Yeah, but shards are still near 4k/ea, so they still make up a big junk of the deal, so picturing ecto's as most important is still not correct, they are more pricey but equally significant.

Well, you said yourself that the droprate in FoW should be lower than in UW, you ASKED for drop rates being very low to keep UW more important. Then what's the problem, because exactly what you ask for is already in place.

And since when do you decide on what area is suited for FoW armor? FoW is made up of a giant FORGE in the middle of it. With a giant ANVIL, and a FORGEMASTER next to it. What, are the Reapers gonna make your armor? Or after you defeated Dhuum, maybe you can ask him to make you an armor set and polish your shoes? FoW armor is in FoW because it belongs there, lorewise, and because FoW -and note, I'm gonna have to say it twice- was originally MEANT to be tougher than UW. It has more quests, more variety of foes, collectible drops salvage to more mats than the ones in UW, etc. So that's why it's in FoW. Oh, and did I mention the giant forge yet? You know, that place where they forge armor?

I'm flaming you not because of this thread, because we're seriously off topic, but because you ask for things that mean nothing and are redundant to say the least. Especially since some things you ask for are already in place.

You make a big mistake. This is what I think is fair or logical. I never said it was up to me to decide what it has to be or not.

This is a forum and people can share their ideas and opinions here. Preferably with some reasoning behind it. But even when you have reasons for something, it doesn't mean that others have to agree. My ideas follow a certain logic and you do not have to share this logic. At the same time, your over-the-top reaction was completely unnecessary.

You really attacked me without cause. It's just what I think it should be; it's my opinion, not the law, I just try to make clear why I feel a certain way. Still not saying you have to agree with it. I never said that. And anyways, GW won't change just because I feel a certain way.

So, again, try not to respond to what you think I am saying. I wasn't saying that I have the right to tell Anet what to do. I do, however, reserve the right to have my own ideas and opinions and your instant attack on my ideas was way out of line as far as I am concerned. It was unnecessary and out of proportion.

So what if I find it logical that the location where you get something that's hard to get, should be in the hard area? Just my logic. Some will agree, some won't. You're not gonna die just because I have an opinion here you know.

Carboplatin · May 14, 2011, 03:26 PM // 15:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bright Star Shine

That's like saying: "Every person I've seen defending the nazi's was a nazi." Maybe not the best example, but it was the first thing that popped in my head.

If you are defending the Nazi's, that makes you a Nazi in my book.

Horus Moonlight · May 14, 2011, 04:22 PM // 16:22

I cast Godwin's Law Level 5

Xiaquin · May 14, 2011, 04:31 PM // 16:31

I couldn't make it through the entire thread before it collapsed in on itself. I'll just leave my two copper shillings here:

-"Elite" shouldn't mean enduring a long series of consecutive quests that, due to time constraints and patience threshold, deters players like me more than the technical demands of figuring out how to bring enemy red bars down while keeping yours up.

-Those who feel that facilitating UW by any means would "ruin" it really should stop and think about the state of PvE and the true value of showing off an UW statue. Simply allowing quests to save to the log doesn't hurt it one bit. There's no way to tell who toughed it out with heroes vs. a share in a SC, anyway.

While it's sad that many players (myself included) won't beat UW and miss out on the many quests and lore (you know, things that make a game interesting, instead of pink blobs of money enemies poop out), I understand there will always be resistance to change in anything. When you really think about it though, we're arguing over pixels here; very, very old pixels, I might add. There comes a time to let things go a bit.

Hey, kind of like how they've been balancing the rest of PvE, yeah?

Bright Star Shine · May 14, 2011, 05:20 PM // 17:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Horus Moonlight

I cast Godwin's Law Level 5

See, that's why I didn't want to post the example I did, because I knew someone was gonna make a reference to Godwin.. But it was the best I could come up with..

Reformed · May 14, 2011, 05:29 PM // 17:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xiaquin

Simply allowing quests to save to the log doesn't hurt it one bit.

It can't work because it's too easy to abuse the system. Saved progress on Clear the Chamber + Ice Wastes/Chaos Planes (for teleportation) = the easiest ecto farming you've ever seen. This would be fine if completing quests didn't actually change things down there...but it does.

Chthon · May 14, 2011, 06:50 PM // 18:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reformed

It can't work because it's too easy to abuse the system. Saved progress on Clear the Chamber + Ice Wastes/Chaos Planes (for teleportation) = the easiest ecto farming you've ever seen. This would be fine if completing quests didn't actually change things down there...but it does.

This could be avoided simply by making Clear the Chamber and Restoring Genth's Monuments reset each time you enter, while other quests do not. For that matter, the entire UW quest line could be revised into a better format by using "overquests" like Duncan/DoA/Wik like so:

Quest 1: Liberating the Underworld
Given by Lost Soul
Repeatable
Progress resets each time you enter the Underworld
Tasks:

Kill these Squid (formerly Clear the Chamber)
Talk to the Reaper of the Labyrinth
Free all 7 Reapers. X Reapers Remaining. (formerly Restoring Grenth's Monuments)
Complete "Assist the Reapers."
Talk to King Frozenwind.
Beat Dhuum.

Quest 2: Assist the Reapers
Given by Reaper of the Labyrinth
Repeatable
Progress is saved. Resets when abandoned or completed.
Tasks:

Complete "Unwanted Guests."
Complete "Escort of Souls."
Complete "Wrathful Spirits."
Complete "The Demon Assassin."
Complete "The Terrorweb Queen."
Complete "Imprisoned Spirits"
Complete "Servants of Grenth."
Complete "The Four Horsemen."

Quests 3-10: Escort, Wrathful, etc.
Given by appropriate Reaper
Repeatable
Progress resets each time you enter the Underworld (but completion is stored in "Assist the Reapers").
Tasks: Same as current.

Initial spawns and quests spawns are all exactly as they are now. (Except that King Frozenwind needs an alternative spawn method if SoG is already complete -- Probably an alternative dialogue for the Reaper of the Wastes to summon him.)

There. No super ecto farming. The only difference from the status quo is that you can opt not to do Escort, Wrathful, etc. if it's already complete.

There are two problematic issues here though:

1. What do you do about people who are not at the same level of progress in quest completion? Do you let them go on to Dhuum if only one team member has actually completed all quests? Do you have King Frozenwind say "Person X has not helped all the Reapers. Piss off and come back when Person X has done the quests"? Both are problematic. The first option makes Dhuum farmable. (Remember Duncan runners?) The second option creates the kind of group forming problems that keep DoA and Slavers pretty much dead for PUGs. I guess the second option is the lesser of two evils, but I hold out hope for a more elegant solution.

(One random thought here: The first option (letting you go on to Dhuum on the basis of another team member's quest completion) is *exactly* what SC teams are doing right now. The guy completing quest X never does quest Y, but he gets to go straight to Dhuum because someone else on his team did it. If the goal is to create greater parity between people who abuse SF and people who don't, then maybe allowing people to skip quests isn't so unfair.)

(Second random thought: Forcing you to free every Reaper goes a long way towards making Dhuum less farmable for normal teams. It will speed up SC teams, but they're already so fast that it's not a huge loss. Besides, the reason UW is so messed up in the first place is the wrongheaded idea that mucking with the content is a good way to solve the SC problem. The real solution is to just kill SF and be done with it. If you really must muck with content, then the best option within that domain is to load the chamber with so many SF hosers that SC teams never make it out of the room.)

2. UW is *supposed* to be an endurance and robustness test. None of the quests, not even Four Horsemen, is that hard if you can design your team for the sole purpose of just getting there and beating it. A very large part of the challenge comes from the fact that building to beat certain quests means leaving yourself ill-equipped for other quests. Making progress saveable in any way detracts from that difficulty. That ultimately boils down to questions of "how hard do we want UW to be?" and "how much difficulty are we willing to trade off in exchange for better accessibility?"

BladeDVD · May 14, 2011, 07:07 PM // 19:07

I would personally love it if they were able to implement the Slaver's/DOA style of elite area completion in the UW, but there's no question that it would make it easier.

Elite areas are supposed to be hard. Sometimes one part of what makes it hard is how much time it takes to do. Clearly, for balanced teams, that is part of how UW (and to a lesser extent FOW, Urgoz and the Deep) were meant to work.

Still, they did change the Survivor title and this would be a pretty similar type of change, so it's certainly not out of the realm of possibilities.

Edited to add...excellent post Chthon.

Xiaquin · May 14, 2011, 09:46 PM // 21:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reformed

It can't work because it's too easy to abuse the system. Saved progress on Clear the Chamber + Ice Wastes/Chaos Planes (for teleportation) = the easiest ecto farming you've ever seen. This would be fine if completing quests didn't actually change things down there...but it does.

I see your point, but I still think the entirety needs to be brought down to a more manageable level. I can't imagine it's impossible to fairly distribute the drop rate.

Elnino · May 14, 2011, 10:25 PM // 22:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bright Star Shine

Well, and every single player I've seen bashing on SF as a skill that ruined this entire game ISN'T a SC player, I don't see your point?

I've SC'd before. Doesn't make me blind to it's imbalance though.

Plutoman · May 15, 2011, 12:26 AM // 00:26

I've always believed that'd it'd be nice if we needed balanced teams for all of PvE, and only the most skilled teams could do elite areas, and required a balanced team - or at least, a team that took a lot of skill. There's few things in the game that take a lot of skill - some of the SC's are very difficult - but I've always believed that the game would be better supported by a structure that prevents a sense of invulnerability.

I would see it as comparing to PvP - the best guilds truly use a lot of skill, and aren't invulnerable - they're just better than the rest. I'd have liked to have seen the high-end PvE as similar to that - no invulnerability, but you need coordination, skill, good builds, and balance to actually be able to win out. Nothing that completes elite areas in <30 minutes (areas shouldn't be soloable, a full team should be needed in every area). Also, if SF was nerfed, ele's would come out as the lead with obs flesh, or dervishs with VoS, etc. The way protection works, protection stacked with spell immunity leads to complete immunity. There shouldn't be permanent spell immunity in the game, imo.

However, the game structure is way, way too far along to ever think about changing it. SC's are part of the game, and we get to live with them and enjoy them as best as we can. As far as changing the UW, a completion based system for quests would make it more accessible time-wise, I wouldn't object to that change. It does make it significantly easier, though. Which I don't necessarily like but I guess I can understand.

Net The Nabi · May 15, 2011, 03:55 AM // 03:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Horus Moonlight

I haven't bothered to follow this thread closely but the bolded part is a pretty poor reason not to touch SF. Believe it or not, PvE was balanced (relatively) at one point and it is this mentality that allows the current PvE to be a loljumpinheadfirstandwatchthemobmelt fest. Just because SF is a staple in a subset of the PvE community does not mean it's free from targeted balancing.

Almost nowhere do you just jump in and watch the mob melt.

I find it slightly odd that you feel "you're style of play" shouldn't be touched but see no issue when it impacts "trading/economy" and affects others' gameplay ("skeles and dhuum where [sic] placed in UW as a result of SCing"). Seems slightly selfish, no?

Name another example of where SCing affects anyone elses gameplay besides that one instance WHICH AS STATED ISN'T SUCH A HUGE RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOING PROBLEM IF YOU KNOW HOW TO PLAY THE RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOING GAME.

So no, its not selfish.

This analogy isn't apt at all.

Tell me why my analogy isn't apt.

@Jeydra, You barely addressed what I actually said.

I'm finished with this thread because opinions won't change when facts and examples both people agree are fair can't be brought to the table. I'll read it as it progresses but I won't say anything unless something of actual worth to the subject is said.

Bright Star Shine · May 15, 2011, 10:09 AM // 10:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Net The Nabi

I'm finished with this thread because opinions won't change when facts and examples both people agree are fair can't be brought to the table. I'll read it as it progresses but I won't say anything unless something of actual worth to the subject is said.

Well, no offense dude, but you're the one that went grossely off topic... The subject isn't SF or SCs, it's whether or not we can divide UW in sections.. An idea we shot down a couple pages ago, since then it's been about SCs and SF instead...

cthulhu reborn · May 15, 2011, 12:38 PM // 12:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bright Star Shine

Well, no offense dude, but you're the one that went grossely off topic... The subject isn't SF or SCs, it's whether or not we can divide UW in sections.. An idea we shot down a couple pages ago, since then it's been about SCs and SF instead...

Not to be annoying but the OP did not mention anything about dividing UW in sections. That was just one idea that was mentioned and discussed. The OP asked for ways to make UW doable for a "normal" team rather than just the sin teams if you will.

So, respectfully, this thread is not about whether or not we can divide UW in sections.

Personally I do think that the SC/SF issue relates to the subject because it's the way people succeed at it currently, just like it was Ursanway some years ago.

I would like to suggest that if you take SF out of the picture, how would you do UW and what would it take to do UW if you don't bring sins? That, I think is at the core of the matter. Are there reasonable ways to do UW without sins?

I find this more interesting to explore because a single way to do an entire area is just too limited. With all the skills and classes the game has, there has to be more than just one team build that is a reasonable way of doing it so that everybody can participate and not spend the whole night in one area.

To me it also seems that the difference between Tway or whatever it's called and not using it, is simply too big. So nerfing that build and reevaluating UW could be a logical suggestion for dealing with this inequality. To give one example, I still think it's strange that a sin is a better tank than a warrior or a necro is a better healer than a rit.
That's a different discussion, but it does relate to the strange way GW is built up when it comes to classes and skills and does have an effect on discussions like this. I also realise that redoing the whole class system is too much to ask, so I don't expect Anet to do this.

I suppose I think that part of the reason why some people aren't happy with this UW situation lies in the fact that there are class preferences people have and they cannot play their favourite class or build because it's not what you're "supposed" to do.

I imagine that if UW is tough, it's one thing, but just like when DoA started and teams were only one tank, 2 monks, 1 necro BiP and nukers, people were upset at not being able to play their other classes there because it was not doable. If they happened to have a ranger and mesmer as their fave classes or wanted to play a necro that wasn't a BiP, then forget it.

This is the sort of limitation that I think causes these discussions. And things like SF, because they are so effective actually promote people using specific gimmick builds to be repeated and repeated. I find that a shame, I find it boring, but I know also that not everybody feels that way. Some people just go with what works and don't have specific connections with their characters or classes. But it doesn't mean that this is off topic. For me overpowered builds are at the core of these sort of problems. And that's just my opinion