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Old May 11, 2011, 11:06 PM // 23:06   #41
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To everyone who wants a DoA style UW, have any of you ever even tried it? You do realize that all the quests are linked and they would need to be re-done if you have all the areas made separate.

You also realize the farming ramifications of this action right? Imagine starting at wastes with you're solo farmer. Starting at Plains or Pools with you're solo. Market will crash. Just thinking about it, where would you spawn for mountains? At the base where Unwanted Guests ends? So your team spawns in an area where you will be almost surely wiped instantly? Or make thing easier for you again and just remove all aggro there?

Asking for a DoA style UW is like asking for the statue to be placed into you're hall if you've made it to ToA on any character. It would be that easy.

EDIT: To answer Voodoo, yes it would make thing easier. The reason for this is because first you must actually 'pop' the reaper who spawns the quest which would require making it from any area all the way to him, and then once he is 'popped' completing his quest. Allowing you to spawn in any area allows you to skip any enemies you would need to face just to make it to the person to accept the quest. This is what makes doing things as a balanced team take time and effort, because you don't have a terra to pop the quest for you/complete it for you. And as I said in this post, all the quests are linked together because without Restoring, none of the reapers would pop. Which would mean you'd HAVE to complete the labyrinth first in order to even attempt the other areas.

Last edited by Net The Nabi; May 11, 2011 at 11:12 PM // 23:12..
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Old May 11, 2011, 11:08 PM // 23:08   #42
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Originally Posted by Voodoo Rage View Post
I've never actually done the quest chain, is that really true? Would breaking it up make is "easy" or just more convenient? I would think you are ultimately still having to perform the same tasks. Again, I think there is a difference between making something too easy vs. making it less tedious.
It would, of course, make it easier than doing it all at once. Just as merging all of the other split dungeons into one run would make it more difficult. The problem with UW is it takes the longest to do of anything in GW, has had vast restructures and additions made to it to combat SC's, and the groups that feel the biggest brunt of these additions are casual players and PUG's. In classic Anet fashion the SC'ers and farmers feel a very small difference in efficiency in comparison to PUG's and casual players going about things the "right way".
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Old May 11, 2011, 11:12 PM // 23:12   #43
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To everyone who wants a DoA style UW, have any of you ever even tried it? You do realize that all the quests are linked and they would need to be re-done if you have all the areas made separate.

You also realize the farming ramifications of this action right? Imagine starting at wastes with you're solo farmer. Starting at Plains or Pools with you're solo. Market will crash. Just thinking about it, where would you spawn for mountains? At the base where Unwanted Guests ends? So your team spawns in an area where you will be almost surely wiped instantly? Or make thing easier for you again and just remove all aggro there?

Asking for a DoA style UW is like asking for the statue to be placed into you're hall if you've made it to ToA on any character. It would be that easy.
You mean like just about every other area/dungeon? I'm not quite sure why you're holding UW in such high regard in the grand scheme of end-game gameplay. It's not difficult at all to get the precious statue, but the length of the area is an issue for most people with a job and/or kids. A split and buff of the enemies/quests would be a reasonable alternative.
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Old May 11, 2011, 11:20 PM // 23:20   #44
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You mean like just about every other area/dungeon? I'm not quite sure why you're holding UW in such high regard in the grand scheme of end-game gameplay. It's not difficult at all to get the precious statue, but the length of the area is an issue for most people with a job and/or kids. A split and buff of the enemies/quests would be a reasonable alternative.
UW foes drop ecto, ecto is a huge part of the ingame economy, moreso then any other farmable item in game. Giving people the ability to start in an area and repeat it like its an explorable would drop the price of ecto like crazy.

Even if you work 10 hours a day and sleep for 8 you have 6 hours to get yourself ready and to work, back home, and eat, and if that takes all 6 hours, every single day, meaning you never have a break, not on weekends nor vacations or anything, then learn to speed clear and do it in an hour. That can be broken up over weeks and won't take much time at all. UWSC can utilize, eles, sins, rits, rangers, mesmers, necros, and monks. That leaves out Para, Warriors, and Dervs. Of which its possible to devise a build which works with both Warriors and Dervs and probably paras. But in the event you just want the immediate RIGHT THERE FOR YOU answer, go learn to SC on almost any profession. If you ONLY play war, derv, or para, and don't have the time to UW balanced, go make money, save roughly 70k and have someone run it for you.

EDIT: Sure a split would be reasonable with a buff, but what buff could you reasonably make? UW already has Skeles which hurt even perma, Vengefuls which are INVINCIBLE, mindblades who are the epitome of anti-spellcasters, and just a general overall difficulty with graspings, bladeds, and coldfires. Not to mention you need to keep an npc(albeit a stagnant one) alive before his quest is completed. It is the highest thing to hold in regard to the game of guildwars. Its one set challenge, all of which, is already considerably difficult.

Last edited by Net The Nabi; May 11, 2011 at 11:25 PM // 23:25..
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Old May 11, 2011, 11:23 PM // 23:23   #45
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UW foes drop ecto, ecto is a huge part of the ingame economy, moreso then any other farmable item in game. Giving people the ability to start in an area and repeat it like its an explorable would drop the price of ecto like crazy.

Even if you work 10 hours a day and sleep for 8 you have 6 hours to get yourself ready and to work, back home, and eat, and if that takes all 6 hours, every single day, meaning you never have a break, not on weekends nor vacations or anything, then learn to speed clear and do it in an hour. That can be broken up over weeks and won't take much time at all. UWSC can utilize, eles, sins, rits, rangers, mesmers, necros, and monks. That leaves out Para, Warriors, and Dervs. Of which its possible to devise a build which works with both Warriors and Dervs and probably paras. But in the event you just want the immediate RIGHT THERE FOR YOU answer, go learn to SC on almost any profession. If you ONLY play war, derv, or para, and don't have the time to UW balanced, go make money, save roughly 70k and have someone run it for you.
You have provided no reason for a change to not occur. Ecto prices would drop? Require the same starting position for the UW, just allow a handful of quests to be done in one go. It would not affect ecto one bit, correct? Okay. That takes care of the economy worries.

What are the other issues?
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Old May 11, 2011, 11:24 PM // 23:24   #46
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Originally Posted by Net The Nabi View Post
Addressing back.

5) That what scheduling and planning is for. Trying to balancedway pug UW is one of the worst ideas anyone could conceive at this point in the game. If you aren't in a guild with people willing to balanced, there is a great forum on here for pugging which can be used for thing just like this, get some exp people together and schedule some goes at it. The scheduling won't take time at all, and since your actually planning ahead you can be sure to have the amount of time you need to do it.
I think you might be severly underestimating the time this all would take. Not to mention having to redo it all if there is mistake made.

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4) Where do you propose they be? In every section of the UW? What would the point of that be? It doesn't make your life easier it only makes SC'ers harder. Which is why I have this question, and an answer to your finishing question. If the shoe where on the other foot I wouldn't care, nor try to stop you from doing things the way you want. NOTHING stops you or anyone(save VERY SPECIAL cases) from learning and practicing Speed Clears. NOTHING stops SC'ers from doing things in a balanced manner, which can actually happen from time to time, though its still seldom. So my question back is why must maintainable spell protection be killed if it doesn't effect the way you have to play through the content. Skeletons of Dhumm are NOT that difficult to deal with, and as demonstrated by numerous people Dhumm isn't all that difficult with some pre-UW prep on your build to either keep him perma KD'd or whatever other strats have been used.
Either inplace of skeles of dhuum or inplace of a couple of mindblades...or simply replace the skele aoe "flurry of splinters" with a monster skill like soul rending. The aoe skeles dish out has much more of an effect on reg groups than it does on a solo'er...making them much more of concern when they spawn along with numerous other foes which spell prot renders insignificant.

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One more question(or a set all pertaining to the same thing), my previous 1) is opinion I get not answering that, but 2 and three aren't opinion, why not respond to those? 5) is just an option why shoot it down if its just ONE THING those with a time constraint COULD do? Why no response to 6)? Was it just not worth you're time?

Cause honestly it seems like anyone who uses time as an excuse is just butthurt that people SC when they could just as easily have taken/ could still take the time to do it. If you're against it/not willing, then do things the old fashioned way and stop whining/complaining, its your choice.
2&3 were responses to comments that I had made...2 addressed it and 3 sorta avoided the issue of using cons to solo vs using cons to simply speed up

5...you have to admit that expecting ppl to complete uw over the course of that much time is unrealistic and expecting ppl to all plan to do the same together is even worse

6 see above

I uwsc a lot... I fowsc a lot..I doasc a lot..I do all the dungeon sc's a lot...I am not worried about myself here....I am simply putting myself in the position of those who don't.
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Old May 11, 2011, 11:43 PM // 23:43   #47
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I think you might be severly underestimating the time this all would take. Not to mention having to redo it all if there is mistake made.

I understand, but isn't that part of the challenge? Besides its not like anyone forces UW to be done in HM which makes this a 1000 times easier.

Either inplace of skeles of dhuum or inplace of a couple of mindblades...or simply replace the skele aoe "flurry of splinters" with a monster skill like soul rending. The aoe skeles dish out has much more of an effect on reg groups than it does on a solo'er...making them much more of concern when they spawn along with numerous other foes which spell prot renders insignificant.

I looked, and honestly couldn't find a skill named soul rending, nor do I know what you are referring to. But I understand that Skeles are more powerful against a group then a solo'r, but that doesn't mean they can't be killed quickly. Think about the FIRST thing you do in UWSC in almost every run, pull skele with hos or any hex and have spirits kill it in seconds.

2&3 were responses to comments that I had made...2 addressed it and 3 sorta avoided the issue of using cons to solo vs using cons to simply speed up

5...you have to admit that expecting ppl to complete uw over the course of that much time is unrealistic and expecting ppl to all plan to do the same together is even worse

6 see above

I don't think its unrealistic to dedicate 2-3 hours to perform one of, if not the hardest thing to do in the game. Its not like people don't ever have 2-3 hours to do what they want, especially when they plan it, and No I don't think its absurd to ask people to plan ahead. I'm sure you plan ahead when you had birthday parties? Perhaps when you graduated High School or College? How about just when you want to hang out with a large group of friends? You don't ever send out a message(text, email, facebook, phone call) to set things up a week or so in advance? Is that really so difficult for guildies or people who met to PM here on Guru and schedule things? If you want it, there are ways to earn it, and you don't need to plan your life around 2-3 hours, in the foreseeable future more then just the majority of players will have 2-3 hours they can dedicate off to playing.

I uwsc a lot... I fowsc a lot..I doasc a lot..I do all the dungeon sc's a lot...I am not worried about myself here....I am simply putting myself in the position of those who don't.

It's great to do so as well, and I'm not against people doing things their own way, but honestly, breaking up the UW would not only create a major ease for SC's and balanced, but it would ruin the economy. Please remember that an average SC takes 45-an hour for UW,(pugging, new guildies, various problems) assuming you complete it. Is it really TOO much to ask for double that when playing in a balanced team? Or possibly triple if you want to do it with heroes?
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Originally Posted by Golgotha View Post
You have provided no reason for a change to not occur. Ecto prices would drop? Require the same starting position for the UW, just allow a handful of quests to be done in one go. It would not affect ecto one bit, correct? Okay. That takes care of the economy worries.

What are the other issues?
IF the UW was changed to have you start at the labyrinth each time you entered and all of the foes and aggro was regenerated, the only difference being your quest log reads as a previous quest(s) you've completed is done, then while it would still be easier, I wouldn't really have a problem with it, but it quite frankly doesn't need to be changed.

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Old May 11, 2011, 11:44 PM // 23:44   #48
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Here I'll make it simple stop being shitty players. GW is a light RPG compared to the majority out there. I don't know how many ever played everquest but killing the sleeper was a massive undertaking think UW x100. I think it is only fair that GW is allowed 1-2 sort of hard zones to keep the section of the playerbase that wants more than a c-space win dungeon.

In my alliance we run SC and balanced UW builds guess what both take under an hour to complete and the majority prefer the balanced run since it allows a variety of classes.

The final thing I want to point out is how many statues are there for completing a single dungeon? I think that alone should give an idea on the difficulty of UW and why it is difficult.
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Old May 11, 2011, 11:55 PM // 23:55   #49
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Here I'll make it simple stop being shitty players. GW is a light RPG compared to the majority out there. I don't know how many ever played everquest but killing the sleeper was a massive undertaking think UW x100. I think it is only fair that GW is allowed 1-2 sort of hard zones to keep the section of the playerbase that wants more than a c-space win dungeon.

In my alliance we run SC and balanced UW builds guess what both take under an hour to complete and the majority prefer the balanced run since it allows a variety of classes.

The final thing I want to point out is how many statues are there for completing a single dungeon? I think that alone should give an idea on the difficulty of UW and why it is difficult.
Comparing GW to another game that isn't even in the same genre is pretty strange. If D2 has teleportation, why can't GW then? Splitting the quests up wouldn't make them any less difficult, it would only shorten the length of the entire UW area and increase the odds of finishing since a single wipe wouldn't cause the entire party to boot.

Simple solutions:
  • Split it up into 3 quests with sub-quest "packages". Can map out after any package via NPC.
  • Allow a full clear in one run for SC's to save on their cons. You can play as usual.
  • Keep the UW start position the same regardless of quest "package" the team is attempting.
  • Party wipes clear any previous completed packages.

Retains difficulty but allows a fragmented completion.
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Old May 12, 2011, 12:06 AM // 00:06   #50
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Here I'll make it simple stop being shitty players.
Yeah, that's constructive....

I agree with was previous posters said about not being able to come back and spawn wherever you want or where you left off. All I would propose is that if you completed one of the sub-quests, you don't have to repeat it, it stays checked off. If you re-enter, you still have to go to the beginning and face the same mobs, you just don't have to redo that specific quest. If you fully defeat Dhuum, then the quest chain resets (so no Dhuum farming like Duncan).
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Old May 12, 2011, 12:09 AM // 00:09   #51
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If you re-enter, you still have to go to the beginning and face the same mobs, you just don't have to redo that specific quest.
Adjust this so you can teleport to reapers whose quest you've completed, and we got something here.
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Old May 12, 2011, 12:12 AM // 00:12   #52
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Adjust this so you can teleport to reapers whose quest you've completed, and we got something here.
No, because that causes the farming issue again.
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Old May 12, 2011, 12:23 AM // 00:23   #53
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Adjust this so you can teleport to reapers whose quest you've completed, and we got something here.
I wouldn't mind something like that.

And "stop being bad" is kind of crappy and stupid advice when the setup of the area makes it difficult to get good at it. I've done UW exactly once, not long after Dhuum was added. I'd like to do it again, but that one time I've done it? It took two and a half hours to complete. It's hard for me to be able to dedicate that big of a chunk of time to a video game. Not everyone's in a guild with a bunch of people that are able to drop everything to play with them, either.
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Old May 12, 2011, 12:26 AM // 00:26   #54
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I wouldn't mind something like that.

And "stop being bad" is kind of crappy and stupid advice when the setup of the area makes it difficult to get good at it. I've done UW exactly once, not long after Dhuum was added. I'd like to do it again, but that one time I've done it? It took two and a half hours to complete. It's hard for me to be able to dedicate that big of a chunk of time to a video game. Not everyone's in a guild with a bunch of people that are able to drop everything to play with them, either.
What stops you from learning to speed clear it then?
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Old May 12, 2011, 12:31 AM // 00:31   #55
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What stops you from learning to speed clear it then?
I have no interest in speed clearing, I do not like playing Assassin which is the most popular profession for it (I am a primary Dervish, as it says under my username and avatar over there), I am in absolutely no need of money, and I do not know any speed clear people nor do I want to leave my guild to try and find a SC guild.

There's a difference between "I want to finish it as fast as humanly possible" (SC), and "I'd like to be able to complete it in a reasonable amount of time with the option of being able to save quest completion progress" (what I and others in this thread said).

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Old May 12, 2011, 12:34 AM // 00:34   #56
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Here's the skill Net http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Soulrending_Shriek
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Old May 12, 2011, 12:41 AM // 00:41   #57
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Oh that

But still, why does nerfing maintainable spell prot NEED to be done?


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I have no interest in speed clearing, I do not like playing Assassin which is the most popular profession for it (I am a primary Dervish, as it says under my username and avatar over there), I am in absolutely no need of money, and I do not know any speed clear people nor do I want to leave my guild to try and find a SC guild.

There's a difference between "I want to finish it as fast as humanly possible" (SC), and "I'd like to be able to complete it in a reasonable amount of time with the option of being able to save quest completion progress" (what I and others in this thread said).
AHEM, what gives you or anyone the right to deem what a reasonable amount of time is. Is it an hour? Maybe thirty minutes? Either way it can be done in an efficient manner with or without speed clearing it the traditional way. Speed Clearing doesn't HAVE to mean using a sin of SF and blazing through with meta SC builds.

Again the whole stop and go thing just makes simpler and easier, which means all in all you aren't willing to do what it takes to beat one of the most elite areas in the game as it was intended, and thats what getting the statue is for, thats what getting the end chest is for, thats what the reward you get at the end of beating Dhumm when you say to yourself, Holy shit, just beat the hardest thing this game has to offer, thats pretty cool.

I play lots of videos games, not so much now, but over the years I've played ALOT. Rpgs, shooters, music, whatever. In online shooters and racers, times and kill death/ win loss matters. In music games hitting all the notes and keeping streak matters. In rpgs the only thing that matters is completion or speed, and if you aren't aiming for the speed of it, you should NEED to take the time to beat it as intended, not break it up as you see fit.

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Old May 12, 2011, 01:20 AM // 01:20   #58
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The builds are available in the Heroes & AI section of these forums, but the Underworld is more about knowing what to do and when than it is about builds. These threads may prove to be useful to one seeking to clear UW with heroes

the Underworld Guide for 7H players
Underworld & Dhuum discussion
Underworld general discussion with heroes

And I agree. Playing in the Underworld for 3 hours straight just to get kicked out by Dhuum isn't exactly fun or productive. I would prefer a structure similar to Domain of Anguish. Where the Voice of Grenth would offer you a guest that requires you to do the bidding of each reaper inside the zone, and once the meta quest is completed the Reaper will deem you worthy of facing Dhuum himself. I guess this is just wishful thinking but the UW in it's current state is a dreadful experience for the majority of non-SC players.


I third this sentiment.

I've rarely spent less than an hour putting together a group for UW, and have NEVER been
able to get through the whole thing without at least one person dropping out before we're
done.

It is do-able using heroes, or a combination of people and heroes but even so... it's really
tough to come up with three or four hours straight to play a game. When it would be so
easy to break it down into more reasonable segments it should be done.

Don't get me wrong. I'd love to be able to get a group of dedicated players together and take
on an epic quest ... failure is not an option. But the reality is that I just can't guarantee a group
of seven others that I will be able to play uninterrupted for four hours or expect them to do
the same for me.

I'm not saying we should sign a pitition or anything like that. I'm just echoing the seniment
put forth by Lasai.
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Old May 12, 2011, 01:30 AM // 01:30   #59
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Originally Posted by Net The Nabi View Post
AHEM, what gives you or anyone the right to deem what a reasonable amount of time is. Is it an hour? Maybe thirty minutes? Either way it can be done in an efficient manner with or without speed clearing it the traditional way. Speed Clearing doesn't HAVE to mean using a sin of SF and blazing through with meta SC builds.

Again the whole stop and go thing just makes simpler and easier, which means all in all you aren't willing to do what it takes to beat one of the most elite areas in the game as it was intended, and thats what getting the statue is for, thats what getting the end chest is for, thats what the reward you get at the end of beating Dhumm when you say to yourself, Holy shit, just beat the hardest thing this game has to offer, thats pretty cool.

I play lots of videos games, not so much now, but over the years I've played ALOT. Rpgs, shooters, music, whatever. In online shooters and racers, times and kill death/ win loss matters. In music games hitting all the notes and keeping streak matters. In rpgs the only thing that matters is completion or speed, and if you aren't aiming for the speed of it, you should NEED to take the time to beat it as intended, not break it up as you see fit.
I have the right to decide what I think is a reasonable amount of time for me. I have other responsibilities and obligations. I've beaten UW already, as I said - I have the statue in my HoM. It really wasn't terribly difficult - I've encountered things in regular gameplay that were more difficult than doing UW. It was just long, tedious, and time-consuming. It's not the literal difficulty that's the problem, it's the fact that it is so time-consuming. I would like to go through and do UW again, but I can't dedicate most of my free time to it, knowing that one mistake, or something coming up IRL that needs to be taken care of, and I'm SOL and that time was wasted. I can't stay up until 1-2am playing. I play other games than just GW. And I doubt I'm the only gamer here that faces those same issues.

I've been playing video games a long time, too (over two decades), and I've played a lot, and I disagree with what you think the point of an RPG is. It's not speed nor completion; it's playing through and experiencing a story. But then again, most video game RPGs are either open sandboxes with little plot, or you're pretty much playing a movie, and either way it has little resemblance to actual RPing.

Last edited by Verene; May 12, 2011 at 01:33 AM // 01:33..
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Old May 12, 2011, 02:03 AM // 02:03   #60
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Here I'll make it simple stop being shitty players. GW is a light RPG compared to the majority out there. I don't know how many ever played everquest but killing the sleeper was a massive undertaking think UW x100. I think it is only fair that GW is allowed 1-2 sort of hard zones to keep the section of the playerbase that wants more than a c-space win dungeon.
LoL, and guess what.. Everquest2 allows raid groups to "save" an instance now so they can take it up again where they left off, including areas already cleared.

Wake up.. it's not a difficulty thing.. it is a time thing. The idiotic timesinks of early Everquest and others are a dead thing of the past, and getting deader as companies realize that the casual gamer is the one with both the checkbook and the smallest blocks of gaming time.

I still fail to see the difference in killing the same mobs, in the same area, to the same end result.. and with roughly the same time committed.. the only difference being that it could be done in "chunks" of time rather than one session. How is that a "c-space" win?
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