Curse

Killed u man · May 11, 2011, 12:14 PM // 12:14

UW is definatly doable for a casual player with the right hero setup, even in HM.

What always bothered me most, as it does with other players, is that certain professions have no place in non-hero/friend groups. It's not because people are unwilling to take you, it's because the way Underworld works, they simply can't take you cuz they'll get stomped.

A warrior, for example, has no place in a pug UW group because warriors are shit a PvE groups that aren't fully build around them.

The root of this issue (offcourse, what else) is Shadowform, or any other form of imbalanced tanking. This problem has 2 negative impacts on the game for other professions, a direct one and an indirect one.

The direct one obviously being that a Shadowform sin not only can tank an infinite (Virtually) amount of enemies, it can also kill them in "the blink of an eye" (Read: just as as fast as a balanced group would having to killing them one by one).

The indirect one that Anet kept buffing and buffing PvE to counter Shadowform sins. UW was already one of the hardest areas in the game, and Anet kept adding counters skill to farm builds, which ironically always got circumvented by those exact teams, which completely destroyed the ability for a balanced team (In which any profession could participate) to exist.

Any form of tanking not based on the natural capabilities of the profession (Shadow Form, ranger block stances which last a year, +a million armor skills, Prot spirit, ...) should've never existed in this game. On top of that, AoE skills without a limit should've never existed aswell. The first farming builds broke the market by pushing down the prices of ectos from 15K+ to less than 8K, this was a clear sign that people being able to kill intire groups of mobs faster solo than an intire team could is not particularly good for the game.

I know GW is dead anyways (In b4 the carebears say it isn't), but I wouldn't mind seeing a complete nerf to all skills which result in being able to tank a near infinite amount of foes. (With the exception of prot spirit, which imo should end after X hits) Aswell as those skills which can kill intire mobs in a matter of seconds where a balanced team would spend minutes on. (Sliver Armor, Whirling for starters)

Lest121 · May 11, 2011, 12:20 PM // 12:20

Since UW is all about SC I don't pug that area anymore.....IMO if you want to play UW but not with a some cookie cutter speed clear team build, just go with your heroes practice on normal and move over to HM...

chullster · May 11, 2011, 12:27 PM // 12:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by fester555

if it takes 3 hours with heros your just slow i 2 manned all of uw in under 2 hours

I assume English is not your first language, as your writing of it is so bad, and your reading skills aren't too hot either.

You now say you have "2 manned" the UW, so you have someone else with you and I presume one had a tank build. That is not what is being discussed, please read the thread.

As I said, I've done speedclears of UW YEARS ago, and more recently when Dhuum and his friends showed up. It's old, boring and easy.

RedDog91 · May 11, 2011, 03:49 PM // 15:49

Summary of OP is one sentence:
"This is too hard, make it easier for me now!"

Honestly, there is no suggestion I can give in this thread because I believe OP may just be trolling us.

chuckles79 · May 11, 2011, 03:59 PM // 15:59

Everyone keeps missing the point of the gripe(s), including the original complainer.

The UW is an [b]ELITE[/b} area. ANET was, for a very long time, committed to the idea that no one should be able to solo elite areas. They nerfed trapping spirits based upon this philosophy.

The 4 Horsemen, King Frozenwind, and the dryders in the bone pits can all cause wipes due to one wrong move. What's new? If you have done Urgoz you understand how that works.

The problem all began when ANet introduced God Mode for assassins. It wasn't a bad idea if it had lasted 1-3 months. Sins get a lot of PvE hate, and a short period of serendipity was a big thank you from ANet for playing a long neglected class.

Then it kept going...and going...and going. Even today it continues in a form of reduced functionality.

Suddenly being able to farm ectos and clear elite areas became a right instead of a priveledge.

So many people created sins for farming that it's now an integral part of the game. I hope whoever came up with this idea is not part of the decision making process of balancing GW2 or I fear for the future.

I digress. It is frustrating to devote a massive amount of time to the UW, but I would recommend that you should focus on the areas that are difficult for you first if your goal is to clear. Doing it in the order of Ice Wastes, Chaos Plains, then Bone Pits. Those are the three areas that can trip you up or you can just get unlucky. Maybe throw in Unwanted Guests in HM (easy in NM).
After that it's just a matter of getting everyone on the same page ( or microing heroes) at Dhuum.

Golgotha · May 11, 2011, 04:00 PM // 16:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedDog91

Summary of OP is one sentence:
"This is too hard, make it easier for me now!"

Honestly, there is no suggestion I can give in this thread because I believe OP may just be trolling us.

I think it read more as "this takes far too long in one sitting, why not split it up like other high end areas?"

But, you can take it as a cry of another kind if you like. It should make for a good off-topic argument with someone.

Essence Snow · May 11, 2011, 04:03 PM // 16:03

Even though I uwsc, I can see where the op is comming from. All of the addition to uw (put in place to control rampant sc's+the addition of dhuum) have only slowed sc's down by a minimal amount. However those same changes have slowed non-sc teams significantly to the point where it has becomes an issue.

Not everyone has 2-3hrs to devote to completing uw with heros let alone trying to form a group of 8 ppl that all have the same open window at the same time.

Imo allowing checkmarks for uw or making the 2 quests (4h and servents) more applicable to non sc groups is completely reasonable.

Saldonus Darkholme · May 11, 2011, 04:07 PM // 16:07

I'd have no problem with them adjustig the quest structure. The OP is correct in that. I thought the reason they nerfed Ursan was for the very same thing we're seeing regarding UW? ALL the arguments seem to fit!

Carboplatin · May 11, 2011, 05:05 PM // 17:05

UW does take quite a bit of time to do and allowing partial completion wouldn't be a bad idea in my book.

Godess Charmaine · May 11, 2011, 05:26 PM // 17:26

I never mentioned to make uw easier in the sence change its dynamics, I only mean to state what others have also that it takes to long and a save option would be a nice introduction.

i dont need to clear uw in rapid time I acually enjoy the area killing everything and having fun doing it . and I am also no noob at elite areas but as my main is a monk i dont see why i need to change my toon to fit into a specal group like the sc teams to complete just that Area.

as for my guild helping that isnt the issue either, some of us have time restrains with work and kidds so It is very hard to get 2-3 hrs just to do uw completly, and having the fun in killing everything in there, its so fun.

And please do not get me wrong i really have no prob with the guys that run the sc builds and can do so, way I look at it they are just more comitted to the game and have alot more talent in running there builds then I do. so good luck to them, me I like the stress free fun of the game.

cheers

Chasing Squirrels · May 11, 2011, 07:13 PM // 19:13

Thing I hate most about UW and some other speed clears is that some builds and professions are welcome. I would really hate to see this continue in gw2.

Voodoo Rage · May 11, 2011, 07:30 PM // 19:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

The only problem I had to make it was time. You practically have to change your schedule to make it.

I wish there was 'checkpoints', quests that stay completed, until you get to the final one, and then be able to have a go to the final one.

Yeah, seriously. Would that really "ruin" the game or anything? I go into the Underworld all the time to screw around but I've never come close to devoting the hours needed to do all of the quests. DoA lets you do it in chunks.

Net The Nabi · May 11, 2011, 07:33 PM // 19:33

The amount of whining in this thread kind of makes me laugh. ESPECIALLY at the shadowform hate. First of all, SF while it is powerful, is not the skill that keeps you alive, its Shroud of Distress. Secondly, pcons and cons are what makes speed clears(for the most part) actually fast. Without them most SC teams would just have the tactics to do areas quickly, and not all the extras that make it possible. Third, in a game where vanity is EVERYTHING as far as rewards go, please tell me why anyone would willing choose to do the same thing over and over if it takes an absurd amount of time? and then still have only a tiny chance at that vain item. Speed Clears aren't bad for the game, they fit right into the system that has been built over the years. They do not make completing underworld or any other area easy, as it takes time and practice to actually not fail.

More on topic then I've been in this post though - UW is entirely possible with a balanced team. It's possible with heroes, and nothing besides yourself can prevent you from using Pcons or cons to help speed up the process/make things easier. In all things, challenges are meant to be difficult, and thats what UW is, a challenge. Think of a marathon, with time, practice, and lots of preparation, you can cross that finish line and it clearly wasn't impossible, but it takes time. Endurance and length can be a factor in difficulty and clearly anet used them as factors when building and then revamping The Underworld.

P.S. Maybe this sounds ridiculous to some people but to all those who "Just don't have 3+ hours to dedicate to ONE THING" I have two things to say. #1. If you're not willing to take the time and effort to EARN your statue then you don't deserve it. #2. Why can't you just plan accordingly? If you have 2 hours, start UW and go through the progressions and quests you have time for until you know you won't have time for the next quest. Stay in a safe spot(IE any reaper once the quest is done or after you've cleared up to them and he's just popped) and stand still till you get back? Would it kill you to leave your computer on for a few hours while your're not there? Maybe you have a laptop with a bad battery, well why not just plug the charger in? and if you're response is I need the computer for something else, THEN MINIMIZE THE GAME! Guild Wars doesn't need to be the active thing on your screen to be running.

Edit: Breaking up the UW into sections like DoA would ruin the area. Each quest and popping the reaper leading up to it, standalone, with a team of heroes or just a balanced random 8 person team, would make UW STAGGERINGLY easy. 4h would still present some form of challenge, but within a day or two, any team should easily be able to clear the entirety of The UW with little to no problems. The difficulty of UW comes from having to do it all at once.

Double EDIT: @killed Sliver armor was nerfed and on a sin using SF requires practice to get right, it also does not clear things faster then a balanced tank and 7 man team could.

Triple EDIT: Just incase I feel the need to re-read this shit again and comment further.

Fay Vert · May 11, 2011, 07:49 PM // 19:49

UW is so hard and long because ANet kept adding to it to slow down the sins, regardless of every other profession or play style. The one thing they absolutely refused to do was fix Broken Form. So basically UW is now only fit for the speed clear specialists (Yup, even after the massive power creep to the area, SC is still the game, failnet) and specific area farming.

But hey, why would ANet want to encourage normal gameplay when it's easier to placate the whinassins.

Essence Snow · May 11, 2011, 08:20 PM // 20:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Net The Nabi

Wall of text that you should try yourself.

1) It's not shroud alone ..it's the combination of shoud and sf......maintainable spell prot> blocking and regen in almost every instance

2) The pcons and other cons speed uw up, but not nearly as much as individuals being able to complete quests solo

3) Yes it is possible, but it is not practical for non sc groups

4) Try getting other ppl to leave their comps on and do uw over the coarse of a day or two in sections....see how well that turns out for ya...degregating uw to heros only in this fashion is well.....

5) sliver wasnt really nerfed all that much it still works very well

6) don't confuse concerns with whinning

Net The Nabi · May 11, 2011, 09:50 PM // 21:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Essence Snow

1) It's not shroud alone ..it's the combination of shoud and sf......maintainable spell prot> blocking and regen in almost every instance

2) The pcons and other cons speed uw up, but not nearly as much as individuals being able to complete quests solo

3) Yes it is possible, but it is not practical for non sc groups

4) Try getting other ppl to leave their comps on and do uw over the coarse of a day or two in sections....see how well that turns out for ya...degregating uw to heros only in this fashion is well.....

5) sliver wasnt really nerfed all that much it still works very well

6) don't confuse concerns with whinning

1) Everything stated about SF was whining, not a concern.

2) I know sliver works just fine, I use it all the time, my point was, it doesn't obliterate entire mobs as described.

3) My cons/pcons point was you couldn't solo the quests without them. So not only is your overall time slower but you need the team to help with quests anyway.

4) So because its impractical for people who don't speed clear to do it should be made easier? Thats absurd.

5) Offering the suggestion to leave you're computer on for a few hours while you are away doing whatever you need isn't so unrealistic, and if it is, and you CAN'T EVER dedicate however long its going to take you, then you CAN'T best the challenge of UW. Period. Length of time is a factor of difficulty.

6) If I need to dedicate half my skill bar or more(EVEN AN ENTIRE OTHER PERSONS SKILL BAR) to stay alive while tanking an ELITE area, it shouldn't be a problem. Its not like one skill enables god mode. Its a combination of a few in different circumstances, and even still you can be taken down, and with the damage cap on SF, people have to get more and more creative to SC faster. Top UW teams don't even need a sin, though the rangers would use SF.

7) It's course. Not coarse.

Essence Snow · May 11, 2011, 10:40 PM // 22:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Net The Nabi

4) So because its impractical for people who don't speed clear to do it should be made easier? Thats absurd.

5) Offering the suggestion to leave you're computer on for a few hours while you are away doing whatever you need isn't so unrealistic, and if it is, and you CAN'T EVER dedicate however long its going to take you, then you CAN'T best the challenge of UW. Period. Length of time is a factor of difficulty.

.

Let's address these 2

4) UW was made more difficult expressly to combat sc's, not b/c it was too easy for non-sc groups. So the suggestion to make it easier on non-sc groups is not that absurd. Heck put in some incubus with soulrending shriek to counter the change.

5) GW has always fancied itself towards casual play...expecting ppl to devote so much time to uw is asinine. Remember this is also very counterproductive to grouping which in itself if a whole new can of worms.

If they killed maintanable spell prot in uw it would in not really effect non sc group, however it would devastate sc's..if the shoe were on the other foot would you still feel the same?

Net The Nabi · May 11, 2011, 10:55 PM // 22:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Essence Snow

Let's address these 2

4) UW was made more difficult expressly to combat sc's, not b/c it was too easy for non-sc groups. So the suggestion to make it easier on non-sc groups is not that absurd. Heck put in some incubus with soulrending shriek to counter the change.

5) GW has always fancied itself towards casual play...expecting ppl to devote so much time to uw is asinine. Remember this is also very counterproductive to grouping which in itself if a whole new can of worms.

If they killed maintanable spell prot in uw it would in not really effect non sc group, however it would devastate sc's..if the shoe were on the other foot would you still feel the same?

Addressing back.

5) That what scheduling and planning is for. Trying to balancedway pug UW is one of the worst ideas anyone could conceive at this point in the game. If you aren't in a guild with people willing to balanced, there is a great forum on here for pugging which can be used for thing just like this, get some exp people together and schedule some goes at it. The scheduling won't take time at all, and since your actually planning ahead you can be sure to have the amount of time you need to do it.

4) Where do you propose they be? In every section of the UW? What would the point of that be? It doesn't make your life easier it only makes SC'ers harder. Which is why I have this question, and an answer to your finishing question. If the shoe where on the other foot I wouldn't care, nor try to stop you from doing things the way you want. NOTHING stops you or anyone(save VERY SPECIAL cases) from learning and practicing Speed Clears. NOTHING stops SC'ers from doing things in a balanced manner, which can actually happen from time to time, though its still seldom. So my question back is why must maintainable spell protection be killed if it doesn't effect the way you have to play through the content. Skeletons of Dhumm are NOT that difficult to deal with, and as demonstrated by numerous people Dhumm isn't all that difficult with some pre-UW prep on your build to either keep him perma KD'd or whatever other strats have been used.

One more question(or a set all pertaining to the same thing), my previous 1) is opinion I get not answering that, but 2 and three aren't opinion, why not respond to those? 5) is just an option why shoot it down if its just ONE THING those with a time constraint COULD do? Why no response to 6)? Was it just not worth you're time?

Cause honestly it seems like anyone who uses time as an excuse is just butthurt that people SC when they could just as easily have taken/ could still take the time to do it. If you're against it/not willing, then do things the old fashioned way and stop whining/complaining, its your choice.

enter_the_zone · May 11, 2011, 10:56 PM // 22:56

Checkpoints to bring UW more into line with other elite areas like Slavers and DOA is a good idea. At least that way you don't loose hours of work if dhuum wipes you, which is not only annoying, it's plain stupid.

Voodoo Rage · May 11, 2011, 11:01 PM // 23:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Net The Nabi

Edit: Breaking up the UW into sections like DoA would ruin the area. Each quest and popping the reaper leading up to it, standalone, with a team of heroes or just a balanced random 8 person team, would make UW STAGGERINGLY easy. 4h would still present some form of challenge, but within a day or two, any team should easily be able to clear the entirety of The UW with little to no problems. The difficulty of UW comes from having to do it all at once.

I've never actually done the quest chain, is that really true? Would breaking it up make is "easy" or just more convenient? I would think you are ultimately still having to perform the same tasks. Again, I think there is a difference between making something too easy vs. making it less tedious.