Curse

Lanier · May 22, 2011, 03:55 PM // 15:55

err, my not-really-serious opinion that spears should be melee had nothing to do with guild wars gameplay. I just thought it would look cooler and be more realistic.

Missing HB · May 22, 2011, 04:44 PM // 16:44

I think reverting back mending refrain and maybe other skills to their original function from few years ago ( i.e targeting other allys for mending refrain) would change things a little concerning PvP....

Fact is that paragon isn't a good class for " starter arenas " such as RA/JQ/FA/AB , and is more likely a " support class" for 8v8 competitive formats , thus quite hard to practice....

Maybe they should consider making a paragon skill such as Heart Of Fury , it would be a good start aswell....

Still Number One · May 22, 2011, 07:11 PM // 19:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndrewSX

Hey, don't look at me, i wasn't proposing it, but just reporting what dev said(don't remember where tho) after last large updates.....

Yeah sorry, didn't mean to make it look like I was yelling at you personally. It was more, me yelling at my TV after a news anchor reports on someone doing something stupid.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NerfHerder

A Rt can heal/support/damage and they are pretty balanced. A lil OP in damage in PvE, but you get the idea. As long as you cant deal damage and heal really well at the same time, its balanced.

Rits used to be extremely OP and it took many months of nerfs before they got to the point they are currently at. The rit was the whole reason rawr spike was one of the most effective (if not THE most effective) build to ever be created. And before the rit it was the Song of Restoration Motigons. Rits aren't even balanced right now. They are still overpowered. The only reason they seem balanced is because there is so much other crap that is OP they go unnoticed. The rit is like an atomic bomb that can obliterate 10 city blocks, but the current crap (like blood necros) can obliterate 30 city blocks. It doesn't mean the one that can blow up 10 isn't destructive, it just isn't as insane as the other stuff.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NerfHerder

Paragons should have something to do in PvP, and more than one build in PvE.

Lemming answered this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NerfHerder

Monks should have an offensive build, in thier own flavor. The smiting line is currently only used for SoH, SF/Secondary abuse, and RoJ. And RoJ isnt all its cracked up to be.

no they shouldn't. Every time they have had an offensive build it has been broken and abused. It was killed for a reason. It needs to stay dead. They are already strong in PvE and have no place in PvP. It does not need to be touched.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NerfHerder

It has been over a year since they said they were going to work on non-Imbagon Paragons and Smite Monks, so I wouldnt hold your breath on that update. Even still, alot of players think those attributes could use some attention.

Just because a lot of players think those attributes need some attention doesn't mean they are right. A lot of people thought the dervish needed to be updated and it has ruined the game. A lot of people thought the random 40 elite buffs were a good idea and they ruined the game. A lot of people thought heros were a great idea and they ruined PvP. I can't think of one idea the majority has cried for (skill balance wise) that was introduced to this game and left a positive impact in its wake. The reason the game is such a pile of crap is because A.Net constantly listens to the so-called majority of players. Maybe if A.Net would admit they are terrible at skill balance, and would simply listen to the 10 or so high end current and former GvGers that still try to make a difference in skill balance this game wouldn't be in the terrible state it currently is in. Instead we get shit updates and then spend months trying to tone it down, yet the end result is always worse than the state of the game before the original update. You will not find a case contrary to that point in the last 4 years. The fact that you still have faith in A.Net to balance things shows your lack of knowledge on the history of the impact on this games skill balances on PvP.

ErrantVenture · May 22, 2011, 07:27 PM // 19:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Missing HB

I think reverting back mending refrain and maybe other skills to their original function from few years ago ( i.e targeting other allys for mending refrain) would change things a little concerning PvP....

Fact is that paragon isn't a good class for " starter arenas " such as RA/JQ/FA/AB , and is more likely a " support class" for 8v8 competitive formats , thus quite hard to practice....

Maybe they should consider making a paragon skill such as Heart Of Fury , it would be a good start aswell....

They already have a maintainable IAS. Paragon damage isn't the problem. They suck because every single support/utility skill in the command/moti lines has been nerfed into oblivion while every other profession (except maybe rangers) has powercreeped since nightfall.

Reverend Dr · May 22, 2011, 09:40 PM // 21:40

Holy shit rangers powercreeped so damn much in nightfall with the amazing compression of natural stride and the versatility of mending touch. Comparing pre Nightfall rangers to post Nightfall rangers is is just absurd.

The root problem with paragons is that the class itself is designed for 8v8. Only in 8v8 are they useful, anything less, especially if a team is forced to split, they are just sub-par. It isn't a skill issue, it is a class issue.

NerfHerder · May 22, 2011, 09:56 PM // 21:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

His core point is still mostly correct, though, no? Is it that big a deal that some people have their pet builds impaired because a niche skill that sees minimal play in PvE gets nerfed?

No, your right, one pet build being nerfed isnt that big a deal. Especially for the current Dervish because they have several good builds to fall back on. But, particularly in the case of the Paragon and Ranger, it has been multiple nerfs(due to being OP in PvP) over a long time combined with powercreep from other professions that undermine thier overall effectiveness in PvE. The Dervish is now on that same path again, just give it time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Still Number One

...

I concede to the wisdom of those more adept in the PvP aspect of GW. ANet does have issues when balancing PvP.

However, for the sake of balance, is it not unbalanced when the Paragon is all but secluded from the game aside from an Imbagon? Saying, "I dont care if they ever have a niche because it will be OP.", is a poor excuse if you are truely concerned with balanced professions/skills. Not having faith in ANet is one thing, but claiming its balanced because it doesnt exist is another. Monks/Smite Monks, Rangers, and Eles arent doing much better, sure they have a niche in PvP, but in PvE they generally have one or two good builds that are still subpar and they often require PvE skills and Secondary Abuse to be less effective than thier counterparts at doing what they are supposed to do.

I may be in the minority, but I actually enjoy skill balances and even the inevitable powercreep. It would be an extremely boring game if everyone was using the same meta for six years.

Xenomortis · May 22, 2011, 10:11 PM // 22:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by NerfHerder

The Dervish is now on that same path again, just give it time.

Even if the Dervish is reduced to using Frenzy and a handful of attack skills it'd still be offensively superior than the Paragon and Ranger and a better PvE profession than the Ranger.
Really, to reduce the Derv to that low level, Pious Renewal would need to be nerfed and that skill doesn't really have an effect in PvP.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NerfHerder

I may be in the minority, but I actually enjoy skill balances and even the inevitable powercreep. It would be an extremely boring game if everyone was using the same meta for six years.

If the game was balanced then the meta would shift on it's own, without enforced changes. This however requires a deep and extensive skillset; something that has been eroded over the years, probably at least partially by powercreep.

Bandwagon · May 23, 2011, 01:07 AM // 01:07

I honestly find it laughable that Anet released, and overbuffed the Dervish profession, why not start small with small updates and work your way up, that way you don't ruin competitive PvP formats. If one of these updates throws PvP into disarray, you can easily remedy it instead of playing darts with the GW skill list.

TheRakeman · May 23, 2011, 01:12 AM // 01:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bandwagon

I honestly find it laughable that Anet released, and overbuffed the Dervish profession, why not start small with small updates and work your way up, that way you don't ruin competitive PvP formats. If one of these updates throws PvP into disarray, you can easily remedy it instead playing darts with the GW skill list.

Probably because it looks impressive to say "We buffed Derv as a whole" rather than "We buffed 2 random skills, hopefully this makes Derv a little better." Of course its a much worse decision as far as gameplay is concerned.

Hopefully in Guild Wars 2 they adopt a new balancing strategy. Balancing arbitrarily to shake things up is bad for the game, period. At the very least, they've probably learned that adding new professions was a failed experiment.

Still Number One · May 23, 2011, 01:24 AM // 01:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by NerfHerder

However, for the sake of balance, is it not unbalanced when the Paragon is all but secluded from the game aside from an Imbagon? Saying, "I dont care if they ever have a niche because it will be OP.", is a poor excuse if you are truely concerned with balanced professions/skills. Not having faith in ANet is one thing, but claiming its balanced because it doesnt exist is another. Monks/Smite Monks, Rangers, and Eles arent doing much better, sure they have a niche in PvP, but in PvE they generally have one or two good builds that are still subpar and they often require PvE skills and Secondary Abuse to be less effective than thier counterparts at doing what they are supposed to do.

I may be in the minority, but I actually enjoy skill balances and even the inevitable powercreep. It would be an extremely boring game if everyone was using the same meta for six years.

For PvE I agree with your stance, for PvP I do not. Rangers and eles are fine in PvP (eles actually need to be toned down). In PvE both are subpar. Paragons are subpar in both PvE and PvP, but require different approaches to make them viable. In PvE they should be buffed. In PvP other classes need to be nerfed.

The solution for motigons is to simply leave PvP paragons alone and buff PvE ones. The problem is people who love their PvE paragon will be upset their character has no place in PvP besides niche GvG builds. But to the PvP crowd, not having a class see use is better then buffing it to the point where it can be used.

The reason being, things aren't sitting on the shelf because they are bad. They are sitting on the shelf because they aren't as powerful as the other things. In order for it to see use it has to reach the power level of the skills currently in use. pretty much every single skill being used right now is way too powerful. They all need to be nerfed, every last one of them. But if you take this approach in PvE, people are going to be upset because the game just became more difficult. Not to mention A.net does not have the manpower or knowledge to successfully do a large scale nerf so it will be a slow painful process that will render professions useless one by one until they all receive the proper nerfs, which could take over a year given their history...

ErrantVenture · May 23, 2011, 02:36 AM // 02:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

Holy shit rangers powercreeped so damn much in nightfall with the amazing compression of natural stride and the versatility of mending touch. Comparing pre Nightfall rangers to post Nightfall rangers is is just absurd.

The root problem with paragons is that the class itself is designed for 8v8. Only in 8v8 are they useful, anything less, especially if a team is forced to split, they are just sub-par. It isn't a skill issue, it is a class issue.

Of course they powercreeped in Nightfall. EVERYTHING powercreeped in Nightfall. Since then though, every other class has received pretty consistent buffs while rangers and paras have only received nerfs.

Vincent Evan · May 23, 2011, 02:43 AM // 02:43

Decent update, but needs to address Dervishes much, much, much more.

viscus · May 24, 2011, 04:51 PM // 16:51

Heres an idea, rework the 600+ currently unusable skills across all professions and we might see less metakids QQing at every pvp outpost.

Suggested skill listing for reworking just in case you need help -

Aggressive Refrain - 25 energy cost and -20 armor for a paragon. NICE JOKE. Hit a paragon with cracked armor and they are instantly as squishy as an unprotted monk. With what you would call standard balanced 8 man teams, I think restoring this back to its original form couldn't hurt.

Smiters Boon - longest running joke in pvp. And has it been fixed or even looked at? Nope. My reworking suggestion would be (since all smite skills have a disgusting recharge time) use it to speed up recharge on smite skills, scaled of course to divine favor, say 1% faster for each level of divine. Not too weak, not too strong.

Headbutt - LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL nuff said. If you call a warrior being dazed a drawback, you must be dead serious about your wammo with healing breeze. As for the energy cost vs bonus damage, im pretty sure warriors can lay out that kind of damage with normal autoattacking, and theres nothing elite about that.

Equinox - ummmm does anyone know anyone that has ever used this in pvp or pve??

Unyielding Aura - fine for pve, completely unusable in pvp. Unless you plan to run mo/n, death nova someone, let them die, rez them, death nova, take off UA, rez them, death nova, take off UA.....

Withdraw Hexes - completely inferior to other hex removals and therefore unusable.

Healers Covenant - a drain on your energy and you heal for 25% less. umm yeh ok...

Amity - I can think of one use for this skill. Taking up space in a psychiatrists office talking about feelings of loneliness and abandonment.

I'm sure you can see where this is going.

Cheers.

Missing HB · May 24, 2011, 05:43 PM // 17:43

Well that's kinda what codex was about... Make those useless skills get some use , but they failed at "implementing " the arena itself nor did anything to it....

Concerning other formats, i could say every skill has it's use on formats such as JQ/FA( although a few skills too OP are ruining formats) , but it doesn't fit at all in other formats for few obvious reasons .. I however think that GvG/HA/RA should be less linked ( any update concerning GvG damages too much both other formats)...

An other issue though is people who watch and laugh at a build looking ridiculous , yet see the damage it's dealing later., because they have too much faith in the meta ( read other thread) .. I'm pretty sure people laughed at the guy who created BB sin for example....

Artisan Archer · May 24, 2011, 06:01 PM // 18:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by viscus

Heres an idea, rework the 600+ currently unusable skills across all professions

Uhm, in 2008 anet decided to this and now in 2011, they're still nerfing the after effects of the powercreep created in these updates. I think you can see where this is going.

Coast · May 25, 2011, 06:07 PM // 18:07

melee would need a hit also tho
basically means we need to go back in time with several skills, but i don't see this as a bad thing for once.