Curse

dudemonkey · Jun 03, 2011, 06:52 PM // 18:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by keli

let's just say, most of the people don't know how to play, still they want to get into the most experienced groups immediately, and when they get booted they go to the forum and cry about elitists

let's just say that the 2nd "P" in PvP sometimes seems like a mixture of crippling Asperger's and weapons-grade meth withdrawal. As long as you have that, you're going to alienate people who might otherwise enjoy PvP.

Twilno · Jun 03, 2011, 07:23 PM // 19:23

There are honestly just too many hurdles to getting PvE players to transition over to PvP. Even if you manage to form a group of low rank players, the learning curve is significant enough to frustrate low rank players. And, for better or worse, high rank players won't let low rank players into their groups. Low rank players either need to be really dedicated and patient, form their own groups and learn on their own, one match at a time, or they need to be fortunate enough to find someone or a guild willing to teach them. Simplifying the game won't help, since experienced players will still be better at communicating, positioning, timing spikes, etc. The curve is lowered somewhat, but their will be too many people already at the top of the curved. RA works because the player pool is a mixed bag of skill levels, so even newer players can jump in and win once and a while. Once the average skill level of the player pool in a PvP format becomes sufficiently high nothing can undo that, short of completely randomizing teams (which would be bad for HA).

Dangling new rewards in front of PvE players might get people to temporarily experiment with PvP, but once the skill disparity between older and new players becomes clear, then only absurdly high rewards (which would also be bad) are going to get people to come back.

Daesu · Jun 03, 2011, 07:49 PM // 19:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by keli

let's just say, most of the people don't know how to play, still they want to get into the most experienced groups immediately, and when they get booted they go to the forum and cry about elitists

It is not that we don't know how to play but the experienced guy was already being such an ass bragging and looking down at everyone before a game even started.

I used to play HA with my friends (who quit the game) and I feel so much happier returning to PvE with my heroes. Too much hate and bad attitude in HA pvp.

HA PvP is intimidating not because of the difficulty but because it is not conducive for new players to even start since they wont be welcomed unless they have a respectable rank but they can't get a respectable rank unless they get invited into a group. It is a catch-22.

Just adding new rewards is not going to make this game better for us. First of all, there is no incentive for higher ranked players to group with lower ranked (or rankless) players. What would you expect to happen? Everyone would be asking for Ranks before you can get invited into a group because everyone wants to win. Inviting low ranked players into the group becomes carrying an unnecessary baggage, so why would ANet expect anyone to go out of their way to do that? It is just stupid.

If you want PvEers to try more PvP then you have to either make a total rank limit per team. Or give an incentive for high ranked players to party with low ranked players in a HA match. Otherwise, you would just make PvEers feel frustrated and hate pvp even more.

Ghost Dog · Jun 03, 2011, 07:54 PM // 19:54

ALL PVP has that in all games, don't even try to lie about it.

Your best bet is to block out text and sound from complex laden individuals trying to bust their "tough guy nut" on the only format they can.

Their attitude is nothing more than that.

keli · Jun 03, 2011, 08:23 PM // 20:23

All of us started somehow, back in the days i used to play HA with pugs and with my guild.
If this update makes more ppl to experience HA, then more newb teams are being formed and the chance to get into a group will grow, so this is a decent update.

dudemonkey · Jun 03, 2011, 08:23 PM // 20:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghost Dog

ALL PVP has that in all games, don't even try to lie about it.

Your best bet is to block out text and sound from complex laden individuals trying to bust their "tough guy nut" on the only format they can.

Their attitude is nothing more than that.

I don't think anyone disputes that many PvP games suffer from this symptom. We (I include myself among the ranks of people uninterested in PvP) are just saying that, given a choice between invasive dental surgery and PvP with 15 year olds just discovering the magic of uncontrolled testosterone production ... we'd have to think about it. No one blames these people, we're just saying that we'd rather not have to deal with them during time that's supposed to be fun and relaxing.

Fortunately, Guild Wars is big enough for both groups, which is why so many people are saying that ANet is not wrong.

Daesu · Jun 03, 2011, 08:31 PM // 20:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by keli

All of us started somehow, back in the days i used to play HA with pugs and with my guild.
If this update makes more ppl to experience HA, then more newb teams are being formed and the chance to get into a group will grow, so this is a decent update.

I think it is a decent and enjoyable experience for the high ranked players but not for the new comers because even new comers want to win.

Everyone knows that in order to win they would have to invite high ranked players, so even the rankless players are doing that.

Furthermore, whenever a low ranked team somehow managed to form, they usually get beaten on the first match because nobody else in the team is experienced. Which makes them feel even more discouraged.

keli · Jun 03, 2011, 08:33 PM // 20:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...57&postcount=1

Awesome read, this should be linked to every thread complaining about elitsts, arrogant pvp ers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

I think it is a decent and enjoyable for the high ranked players but not for the new comers because even new comers want to win.

Everyone knows that in order to win they would have to invite high ranked players, so even the rankless players are doing that.

Furthermore, whenever a low ranked team somehow managed to form, they usually get beaten on the first match because nobody else in the team is experienced. Which makes them feel even more discouraged.

Still we started out somehow, and newb teams can defeat other newb teams and get better. Don't expect to win Halls the first time you get into HA. Not even the 100th time. Gaining experience takes time, which unfortunately today's players lack. You can see it in every whiny thread. They want to beat UW for the first time with idiotic builds. They want SF + Ursan so they can mindlessly farm doa without any experience. Heck, even the addition of consets were not enough for them.

Oh and raging after the first loss is lame. If you do that, you don't deserve to get better.

Daesu · Jun 03, 2011, 08:45 PM // 20:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by keli

Still we started out somehow, and newb teams can defeat other newb teams and get better.

First of all, there are very newbie teams and if there are, they probably get beaten out so much that I am sure leavers would happen and the team would disband. Even newbies want to win.

Quote:

Don't expect to win Halls the first time you get into HA. Not even the 100th time. Gaining experience takes time, which unfortunately today's players lack. You can see it in every whiny thread. They want to beat UW for the first time with idiotic builds. They want SF + Ursan so they can mindlessly farm doa without any experience. Heck, even the addition of consets were not enough for them.

It is not that I expect to join a newbie team and win halls right away. I just think the format is incredibly unfair to new comers because it encourages high ranking players to team up with one another making the matches even more unfair against an all newbie team.

How is a team consisting of ranked 11+s veterans going up against a team of total 0 ranked newbies for the same rewards if either side win, even a fair match?

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...34&postcount=1

keli · Jun 03, 2011, 08:57 PM // 20:57

how would the reward system help if the newbs always lose? (at least this is your basic point)

Daesu · Jun 03, 2011, 09:00 PM // 21:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by keli

how would the reward system help if the newbs always lose? (at least this is your basic point)

The system works if high ranking players are given the incentive to team up with low ranking players (not just out of the goodness of their hearts which doesn't work in real life).

If the total team rank is too high then the high ranking player would not get much reward, even if they win, than if he/she joins a low ranking team to help them win.

Plutoman · Jun 03, 2011, 09:25 PM // 21:25

I agree with the theory, Daesu - but there's problems with the approach. PvP would be smurfed - new characters created to farm low ranked players, unless the titles are account wide. If they are already (can't get to the wiki), then it'd be fine.. I don't think there's enough people that'll buy new accounts just to smurf for that reason alone.

Edit: Got to the wiki, they are account titles. Shows how much PvP I've done! In that case, some kind of matching system sounds good.. but it would hurt returning players that were experienced, but are unfamiliar. Pros/cons everywhere.

NerfHerder · Jun 03, 2011, 10:00 PM // 22:00

I think Anet is finally moving in the right direction. Too little too late for organized PvP maybe, as GW does not have an influx of new PvP'rs. But, casual PvP can still be saved simply because its easy to jump in and out whenever you feel like it. And I see nothing wrong with giving PvP better rewards and incentives. They deserve the same tier of rewards us PvE'rs have been getting for years.

If you want PvE'rs to start PvPing more, the best thing you can do is add shiny rare pixels and stuff you can sell in spamadan.

gremlin · Jun 03, 2011, 10:09 PM // 22:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by keli

let's just say, most of the people don't know how to play, still they want to get into the most experienced groups immediately, and when they get booted they go to the forum and cry about elitists

Unless you all wear hats that say we are an experienced group there is a chance that a new player will ask to join and indeed cry on this forum when you swat them.

How are they to tell you apart from an average group are you taller, do you have two heads, perhaps you just look really experienced.

New players are probably happy to get into any group and until you start to play its pretty hard to judge experience.

That is why the starter and experienced areas are essential, we can not tell your experienced except by you continually calling your rank or by the area you inhabit.

Nobody likes wasting playing time, separating the new players from the experts will reduce the wasted time for both groups.

Swingline · Jun 03, 2011, 10:17 PM // 22:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by NerfHerder

If you want PvE'rs to start PvPing more, the best thing you can do is add shiny rare pixels and stuff you can sell in spamadan.

I don't completely agree with that, People pvp because of shiny titles and emotes. A small part of it is money on the side but mostly it is to grind titles out and show off e-peen.

keli · Jun 03, 2011, 11:06 PM // 23:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by gremlin

Unless you all wear hats that say we are an experienced group there is a chance that a new player will ask to join and indeed cry on this forum when you swat them.

How are they to tell you apart from an average group are you taller, do you have two heads, perhaps you just look really experienced.

New players are probably happy to get into any group and until you start to play its pretty hard to judge experience.

That is why the starter and experienced areas are essential, we can not tell your experienced except by you continually calling your rank or by the area you inhabit.

Nobody likes wasting playing time, separating the new players from the experts will reduce the wasted time for both groups.

No. I have those shiny titles like rank and champion. I thought this was obvious...

Daesu · Jun 03, 2011, 11:50 PM // 23:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plutoman

Edit: Got to the wiki, they are account titles. Shows how much PvP I've done! In that case, some kind of matching system sounds good.. but it would hurt returning players that were experienced, but are unfamiliar. Pros/cons everywhere.

Well, returning players can probably pick it up faster than totally new players. It would be like riding a bike, not bike for years, then trying it out again versus those who have not riden on a bike in their entire life.

gremlin · Jun 04, 2011, 12:30 AM // 00:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by keli

No. I have those shiny titles like rank and champion. I thought this was obvious...

Right and congratulations for achieving them.

However in the game when a bunch of people are looking for a party there is this little problem.
"You do not look any different"

ok got it now ?

They cannot tell you are a god amongst pvp players and don't want some newbie annoying you.

Hence my suggestion that you go join all the other experienced players in one room while the new players go to another.

Unless of course you aim is to create your experienced group and have lots of easy wins against new players ? in which case shame on you.

lursey · Jun 04, 2011, 12:42 AM // 00:42

as I have mentioned before all Arrange Team format has this form of eliteness, because it is a by-product of AT, however if it takes only 10 days or less to become an elite instead of few years I will stay in the pvp, otherwise, if you ask me to play another few years before you can really enjoy the pvp, how will anyone not being discouraged by it?

the problem is not about the eliteness, it is about how long it takes to become the so called "elite" in the arena.

just like highend pve, 50stone, you purchased it, takes maybe a few days, and practicing the route with another few days, then you become the "elite" already...after that everything can keep going...

but in highend pvp, there is no such thing of taking a few days to purchase the 10 ranks....you have to play through around perhaps a few years forming a newbie group in order to get rank 10 in the current system to become an elite.......asking another rank 10 players to assist a rank 1, is like asking the 50 stone elites to give you 1 stone, which is totally discouraging to the elite and beyond the purpose of AT, because every single minute for the elite to earn another extra stone to become more elite is the opposite goal of spending time to become a less stones elite who helps newbie in the situation of organised team.

so my suggestion is to make a way to become elite easier for newbie to the point that map skipping in HA does not occur anymore....

elite only means you have mastered the system, but as you can see for a player to master the system of HA that is from rank 1 to rank 10 it doesn't take like 10 days, but years....

elite doesn't have to be taken so long to become in the situation of AT for a high end pvp to get competitive....when everyone can easily become an elite, the common ground is much fairer early on, more people can join, stay long and build up connections, and really start competing on the common ground.

there is no point to create a complex system that no one or always not enough players to play it.

Still Number One · Jun 04, 2011, 03:54 AM // 03:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by lursey

as I have mentioned before all Arrange Team format has this form of eliteness, because it is a by-product of AT, however if it takes only 10 days or less to become an elite instead of few years I will stay in the pvp, otherwise, if you ask me to play another few years before you can really enjoy the pvp, how will anyone not being discouraged by it?

the problem is not about the eliteness, it is about how long it takes to become the so called "elite" in the arena.

I think we may have different opinions of what constitutes being "elite" but I will go ahead and try to make a point anyway.

The problem isn't the amount of time it takes to become elite. It is the fact that too many people either want to, or think they have to, become elite. I played GvG for about 2 or 3 years. The highest I ever got was into a barely champ range guild (stayed around a 1180 rating) and won a bronze trim. I would not consider that background to be that of an elite player, yet I still feel like I accomplished what I wanted to while playing. And that was having fun.

Take an FPS like Call of Duty, Halo, Counter Strike, etc. They have huge PvP communities filled with people who have no desire to be elite. Most players do not care if they are ever good enough to join an MLG team and compete in tournaments. But they are still part of the community and, if I were to be so bold in saying, are the most important part of the community.

So why isn't that same mentality taken into a game like Guild Wars? I played for 2 or 3 years, knowing full well I wasn't even close to being the best player, and I was happy with my experience. I knew I probably never would be elite, but I had fun regardless. It wasn't about becoming elite. It was about playing the game. It was about getting 5-10 matches every time we set up a GvG date and just having fun, win or lose. There was never a night where I regretted playing. I had nights where I would lose 5,6, maybe even 7 games in a row. It was still fun for me. Sure I played to win and did my best to improve myself after every single game, but just hanging out with people I considered to be friends and spending time with them was the most fun I ever had in any video game hands down.

Why can't people be happy with that? Why does everyone get discouraged when they discover they won't ever get r12 hero, or a gold trim in GvG, or rank 1 on the ladder? Why does that stuff matter? Is it because you can't find 7 other people you get along with to play with you? Honestly, that it is why I don't play anymore, but I'm curious if that is the reason most others choose not to play. Do people really have that bad of a time losing games? Losing 20 times in a row without winning a game all night was still more fun for me than not playing at all. What is preventing other people from having the same experience I did?