Curse

Arato · Jun 05, 2011, 06:52 PM // 18:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urcscumug

That settles it IMHO. It's hard to believe that devs with the experience of WoW and other MMOs simply stumbled into these ideas. They, along with the unit/subunit division (plat/gold) are premeditated.

Ideas being that (1) a healthy dynamic market should be upwards mobile ie. sky's the limit and (2) it should be self-regulated. They took two types of items (dyes and mats) and plugged them into a system that gives them actual cash prices. Which system is not fixed, but adapts itself to the amount sold and bought.

They had to add the hard cap for cash transactions for practical reasons, I suspect. But by offering this system they allowed mats and dyes to become de facto alternative currencies that in turn allow the market to expand as much as it wants upwards. (Why not runes as well? Simple: not stackable.)

First of all, the practical reasons I mentioned are not to be taken lightly. The underlaying bits have to be optimized very well for a large-scale MMO. This system of dividing sums into platinum and gold with a cap at 100 and 999 respectively allows the figures to be kept in a small amount of bits. This is why you will almost never see in an MMO a field where you can enter any sum you want, but you see discrete units capped at 100 or 1000.

I've seen games where the devs attempted to regulate the design to death. They had copper, silver, gold, platinum coins. And they still weren't enough. I'm not sure what happens in WoW for instance when you get large sums in gold but I suspect it's not pretty.

By comparison, the GW system is genius in its simplicity. With only 2 units of cash and an open system they manage to serve all the needs of the economy.

Which brings us to...

There's not going to be an auction system in GW1. Glad we got that out of the way.

The current trade system was made in the same vein: simple but flexible. They chose to let the humans "interface" using actual communication (which had the side effect of eliminating bot trading) and it cut down on the complexity of the trading system.

Now, I get what you're saying. A lot of people see trading as a necessity (it's not) but aren't willing to put in the time and skill to actually use it. They'd prefer an auctioning system.

To them (and you), a few notes:
* Without you following the market and using proper prices, the items would rot in auction instead of your storage. No change, really.
* An auction house is a terribly complex for the devs to implement and even so it is terribly crippled compared to free trading.
* An auction house would enable bot trading.
* The market does not "suffer" because you don't sell something. The market is defined by transactions that take place, not those that do not.
* You hoarding an item would have relevance if there was a limited supply of it. Not the case.
* An auction house would eliminate advertising and salesmanship. You can advertise in trade chat and haggle with trade partners. An auction house would be limited to you guessing the correct price, with nothing to make your offer stand out from another.
* Tough luck.

When I play the game, I want to actually play the game, not rot in town trying to sell things. Or buy things.. it takes me days of combing around looking for a seller hopping from town to town trying to find what I want. You might point out the auction system on this site, but that presents another problem, having to schedule the trade with someone who's not on at the time. An in game auction system gets me what I want, when I want it, in a sense that I can use my time to play the game, not scroll through party search map traveling, party search, map travel, party search, wtb, wts, stand around for hours not getting anything done in game much less irl.

Xiaquin · Jun 05, 2011, 07:39 PM // 19:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kanyatta

The problem is, the "most expensive weapons" you're referring to encompasses about all of 4 or 5 skins. The only ones that come to mind are emerald blades, BDS's, crystalline swords, frog scepters, and nothing else that really comes to mind...

It's been ages since I've seen someone in Kamadan selling a weapon that's not one of the aforementioned skins and asking over 100k for it. There's not nearly that many "rare skins" anymore.

Ever hear of Dryad and Silverwing bows? Tormented Shield? What are R9 Draconic Aegis of the better attributes going for these days? There are lots of rare, extremely valuable skins out there that most people, even ones with a decent amount of wealth, don't buy without a really strong desire. I don't know about you but I know many "poor" people and they aren't running around with R9, inscr Storm bows or even Zodiac skins.

Bow of the Hierophant (gasp, a green!) used to be very high-end and is now (apparently) hovering around 100k or so. Can't blame that on inscriptions; maybe it's because, and I'm just guessing here, people farm the bloody bejesus out of things they want, and power creep has made it crazy fast (and accessible) for most to do that?

Quote:

I personally have an accumulated wealth of about 200k in the bank, and I don't consider myself "poor", since I can get decent-skinned perfect weapons and it hardly puts a dent in my bank.

And there's nothing wrong with that. There is a big high-end market and inscrs didn't ruin it. Dang that Anet, they let poor people more easily have nice-looking gear and be statistically equal to everyone!

Should elite armor require ecto trading, too?

melissa b · Jun 05, 2011, 08:14 PM // 20:14

I think it can be summarized as follows in most cases...

People that benefit from inscriptions are people that play the game

People that benefit from not having inscriptions are people that power trade

Should the game cater to playing the game or to making people rich standing in kamadan all day?

Arato · Jun 05, 2011, 08:57 PM // 20:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by melissa b

I think it can be summarized as follows in most cases...

People that benefit from inscriptions are people that play the game

People that benefit from not having inscriptions are people that power trade

Should the game cater to playing the game or to making people rich standing in kamadan all day?

Bingo.

Because of inscriptions I've been able to get weapons I like from playing the game, going through dungeons, doing elite areas, etc.

I don't like trading, so I prefer to put in the effort to get my gear through play, rather than trading and making money. I can't play this game all day everyday, so I like to utilize the time I spend playing and doing quests, dungeons, elite areas, vanquishes, etc. It probably requires more time to do it that way than to farm one area over and over and spam trade, but my enjoyment of the game is increased doing it my way.

Without inscriptions the only reliable way to get something you'd like is to spam Kamadan all day every day, making money so that you could afford to buy expensive stuff.

Bright Star Shine · Jun 05, 2011, 09:55 PM // 21:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by melissa b

I think it can be summarized as follows in most cases...

People that benefit from inscriptions are people that play the game

People that benefit from not having inscriptions are people that power trade

Should the game cater to playing the game or to making people rich standing in kamadan all day?

I've never powertraded in my life. So point not taken. There are also people that act out of ideology you know.. Some I thought you knew cause you seem to spread it around on these forums quite a lot...

How many times do I have to emphasize that I don't hate inscriptions because I don't make enough money until all you selective readers finally get the bloody point. I probably make more money than most of you guys combined playing the game that is, I don't need any more money than I already have, it's all piling up, but that's entirely besides the point.. But I guess you guys won't read this anyway, and if you do you won't do anything with it cause you guys only seem to read what you want to read. This will probably go into your heads as "I hate inscriptions because I am rich and only want to get richer, MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA give me ecto! I am an evil rich person that hates poor people and punches babies on my spare time HUAHAHAHAHARRARARAAR!!!"

garethporlest18 · Jun 05, 2011, 09:59 PM // 21:59

This post is kind of weird. Because we have just what you were asking for, a rare weapons market. Granted inscriptions did lessen the green market a little bit, but even those are still being sold.

I'm sure you look at the auction threads here or stand around Kamadan once in a while, people still want to have non-inscribable stuff. Like a lot of the Factions weapons. And certain inscribable weapons still go for a pretty decent amount. Hell even mods go for a decent amount, sure not as much as they used to but that's because of inflation.

Maybe I'm not entirely sure about what you're asking for though.

Crystalline swords still sell more uninscribed if they're perfect. They also still sell for quite a bit, inscribe. Same with Emerald Blades, Eternal Blades and some of the other rare dungeon weapon drops (Silverwing bow).

The majority of Faction weapons that only drop in that Campaign are still selling for a large sum of money if they're perfect as well. Mainly the shields with a few weapons here and there.

Then Prophecies weapons non inscribed will still sell, just not as much because of how much of each of them we have in both forms.

So inscriptions killed some of the weapon market, but not all of it. Because there still is a weapons market. What mostly has an effect is 6 years of this game being out and over saturation of weapons on the market.

I see you were also talking about people being able to make blue weapons perfect. I don't really see how that's a bad thing, seeing as this game was supposed to be about skill rather than the equipment you have. I still won't use something that's blue because I like gold letters better..because it means it's rare (even if it's not actually "rare") and I feel better using that over a blue weapon. But making things more accessible isn't that bad.

Besides you can't get all weapons in blue form, mostly just common weapons. Even then, only skins that drop in Nighftall and EoTN.

Bright Star Shine · Jun 05, 2011, 10:04 PM // 22:04

You actually pinned my entire point: some of those weapons are still worth a tiny little bit. Like 20-30k for q9 15^50 weapons on select skins. Certain shields also go for buttloads, but I'm not taking shields into account, cause they sort of needed to be tweaked a little bit imo.
Now, go look how many Nightfall weapons sell for a nice amount. That's right: NONE. Not a single nightfall skin is worth anything at all. Some rare EotN weapons are the sole exception to this rule and that's cause they drop from end chests and drop at retardedly low droprates.

Also, what you're sort of talking about is q7/8 weapons that are worth a bit, q9 and higher aren't worth anything anymore. If inscriptions were never implemented all NF skins would also have dropped plenty with nice stats, there would be more than enough q9 15^50 items for everyone, and they would be worth like 10-20k/ea which is better than selling it to the merch as far as I know, and it's not like people are going to make buttloads of money off it by powertrading..

garethporlest18 · Jun 05, 2011, 10:11 PM // 22:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bright Star Shine

You actually pinned my entire point: some of those weapons are still worth a tiny little bit. Like 20-30k for q9 15^50 weapons on select skins. Certain shields also go for buttloads, but I'm not taking shields into account, cause they sort of needed to be tweaked a little bit imo.
Now, go look how many Nightfall weapons sell for a nice amount. That's right: NONE. Not a single nightfall skin is worth anything at all. Some rare EotN weapons are the sole exception to this rule and that's cause they drop from end chests and drop at retardedly low droprates.

Also, what you're sort of talking about is q7/8 weapons that are worth a bit, q9 and higher aren't worth anything anymore. If inscriptions were never implemented all NF skins would also have dropped plenty with nice stats, there would be more than enough q9 15^50 items for everyone, and they would be worth like 10-20k/ea which is better than selling it to the merch as far as I know, and it's not like people are going to make buttloads of money off it by powertrading..

Most of the Nightfall weapons aren't worth anything anymore because of how many there were. Take Colossal swords for instance, at first they were selling for quite a bit. People found out how to get them and over farmed. The rest are just not desirable over all and inscriptions had no or little affect on that.

Back in the old days, high req weapons didn't sell for much either, if at all. Because people wanted and still want low req weapons. The rarer weapons still do, I was selling high req purple crystalline swords for 50k+ after NF came out. But a req 12 Fellblade never sold for a vast amount (2-5k).

Like I said, at first the implementation of inscriptions made the market die down, but then it shot back up after about a year or so. What kills weapon value is over saturation of the market. When more and more people do it and more and more time goes by, the value will decrease.

EDIT: Just to say a bit more, weapons/mods were how I made my money. Mostly by Chest running (which I think you do, I recall seeing you in that thread) and when NF first came out, I was able to sell quite a few weapons for more than 30k+. Same with the inscriptions. The reason that stopped was because of over abundance. Elemental Swords don't sell for 100k anymore because everyone has one, they drop too easily.

Bright Star Shine · Jun 05, 2011, 10:14 PM // 22:14

I know how this works, and this is why not having inscriptions won't be the end of the world like most people here are pretending it to be. There would be plenty of weapons with the stats you want, but apparently I'm still the evil rich person that only wants to make more money and makes no sense at all...

MithranArkanere · Jun 05, 2011, 10:15 PM // 22:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by garethporlest18

[...] What kills weapon value is over saturation of the market. When more and more people do it and more and more time goes by, the value will decrease.

Exactly. And there's where fixing customization to be required in some way comes in.
Without removing weapons, sooner or later will be lots of them around, inscriptions or not.

garethporlest18 · Jun 05, 2011, 10:18 PM // 22:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bright Star Shine

I know how this works, and this is why not having inscriptions won't be the end of the world like most people here are pretending it to be. There would be plenty of weapons with the stats you want, but apparently I'm still the evil rich person that only wants to make more money and makes no sense at all...

It wouldn't bother me either way. I've been here before they were implemented and it didn't bother me then. But how would it make the game any better? We have a weapons market as it is now, NF weapons won't be worth any more than they are now, the rarer skins drop too easily and the rest are ugly. It might increase prices on a few of them by 5-10k, but what's the point in that?

Bright Star Shine · Jun 05, 2011, 10:18 PM // 22:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

Exactly. And there's where fixing customization to be required in some way comes in.
Without removing weapons, sooner or later will be lots of them around, inscriptions or not.

Wait, weren't you disagreeing with me at first?

Quote:

Originally Posted by garethporlest18

It wouldn't bother me either way. I've been here before they were implemented and it didn't bother me then. But how would it make the game any better? We have a weapons market as it is now, NF weapons won't be worth any more than they are now, the rarer skins drop too easily and the rest are ugly. It might increase prices on a few of them by 5-10k, but what's the point in that?

That there would actually be a market to begin with..

melissa b · Jun 05, 2011, 10:32 PM // 22:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bright Star Shine

I've never powertraded in my life. So point not taken. There are also people that act out of ideology you know.. Some I thought you knew cause you seem to spread it around on these forums quite a lot...

How many times do I have to emphasize that I don't hate inscriptions because I don't make enough money until all you selective readers finally get the bloody point. I probably make more money than most of you guys combined playing the game that is, I don't need any more money than I already have, it's all piling up, but that's entirely besides the point.. But I guess you guys won't read this anyway, and if you do you won't do anything with it cause you guys only seem to read what you want to read. This will probably go into your heads as "I hate inscriptions because I am rich and only want to get richer, MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA give me ecto! I am an evil rich person that hates poor people and punches babies on my spare time HUAHAHAHAHARRARARAAR!!!"

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bright Star Shine

You actually pinned my entire point: some of those weapons are still worth a tiny little bit. Like 20-30k for q9 15^50 weapons on select skins. Certain shields also go for buttloads, but I'm not taking shields into account, cause they sort of needed to be tweaked a little bit imo.
Now, go look how many Nightfall weapons sell for a nice amount. That's right: NONE. Not a single nightfall skin is worth anything at all. Some rare EotN weapons are the sole exception to this rule and that's cause they drop from end chests and drop at retardedly low droprates.

Also, what you're sort of talking about is q7/8 weapons that are worth a bit, q9 and higher aren't worth anything anymore. If inscriptions were never implemented all NF skins would also have dropped plenty with nice stats, there would be more than enough q9 15^50 items for everyone, and they would be worth like 10-20k/ea which is better than selling it to the merch as far as I know, and it's not like people are going to make buttloads of money off it by powertrading..

I did write most because there are exceptions. First you try to steer away from money talk, (Im rich I don't need money...sure we know your rich from doa speedclear so you don't need more money from powertrading), than your next post complains about what items are worth.

So you have lots of money already and you think some skins are too cheap. Heres my theory...you don't want non-rich people to have nice skins and you don't want non-super rich people to have access to all weapon skins.

You want to create a new category of weapons so expensive, so rare that only the super rich can afford. Weapons in the armbrace category, a new way to spend and show off your built up surplus of armbraces besides ultra rare minis...perhaps your tired of ultra rare minis or don't like minis or feel people don't take notice enough.

You want bds to be non-inscribable so a protect bds will be worth 10x250e=2500e or 120 Armbraces so the nicest skins are excluding even from the rich but not the super rich, so you can obtain it and stand out when you pve to other people that will never be able to obtain your level of wealth (hey guys look at my weapon.. I'm not just rich Im of the elite super rich). Maybe bds has been already on the market too long, perhaps you want a new ultra-rare non-inscriptable weapon that anet will add to the game. You created this thread to cater to this your own person wish.

garethporlest18 · Jun 05, 2011, 10:33 PM // 22:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bright Star Shine

Wait, weren't you disagreeing with me at first?

That there would actually be a market to begin with..

So you want a market full of common weapons, req 9-10, selling for 5-10k? How would that be better than inscriptions? You yourself said there's plenty of ways to make money, so people wouldn't need that. Poor people are poor mostly because they don't like standing around trying to sell something.

I mean, there's a weapon market for both, inscribable and non inscribable weapons. Anything not included in that is because it's not desirable or there are too many floating around. If Anet never implemented inscriptions, NF weapons would still be in the same boat. They're not that good looking, there would be too many of them, so what you can sell them for a tiny bit more because they are uninscribable, that doesn't mean they would actually sell.

If anything I think inscriptions helped out the Faction's weapon market over the past year or two, people pay a bit more for them because you can't get them in any other way. Maybe you think they same would happen with NF, if inscriptions weren't around. But seeing as the campaign doesn't have many desirable weapons to begin with, I don't think it would.

Bright Star Shine · Jun 05, 2011, 10:45 PM // 22:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by melissa b

I did write most because there are exceptions. First you try to steer away from money talk, (Im rich I don't need money...sure we know your rich from doa speedclear so you don't need more money from powertrading), than your next post complains about what items are worth.

So you have lots of money already and you think some skins are too cheap. Heres my theory...you don't want non-rich people to have nice skins and you don't want non-super rich people to have access to all weapon skins.

You want to create a new category of weapons so expensive, so rare that only the super rich can afford. Weapons in the armbrace category, a new way to spend and show off your built up surplus of armbraces besides ultra rare minis...perhaps your tired of ultra rare minis or don't like minis or feel people don't take notice enough.

You want bds to be non-inscribable so a protect bds will be worth 10x250e=2500e or 120 Armbraces so the nicest skins are excluding even from the rich but not the super rich, so you can obtain it and stand out when you pve to other people that will never be able to obtain your level of wealth (hey guys look at my weapon.. I'm not just rich Im of the elite super rich). Maybe bds has been already on the market too long, perhaps you want a new ultra-rare non-inscriptable weapon that anet will add to the game. You created this thread to cater to this your own person wish.

Screw BDS'es, I don't understand why anyone would want to have an anorexic dragon and even pay such a ridiculous amount for them...

Also, they wouldn't be worth that much, Bo staffs are at least 100x as rare as BDS'es and aren't even worth that..

Oh, and I'm gonna speak in simple language here, because you don't seem to understand anything and (I'm gonna say it again), you only read what you want to read.

If there would not have been inscriptions, there would still be plenty of weapons that drop. There would be plenty of weapons with desirable mods and stats, thus being a reasonable market for them, and most people would be able to afford them. Only the poor people wouldn't be able to afford them, but they could still easily get cheaper skins from collectors that work JUST AS WELL! You seem to not understand the fact that weapons that don't look as pretty work just as well.. But then again you don't seem to understand an awful lot.

I don't care about nice skins, I use skins that aren't as desirable. The only expensive stuff I got are +10/-2 shields. I'm not the evil, rich bastard that laughs and pisses on poor people and looks down upon everyone.. But convincing you for anything except your own opinion seems impossible anyway..

@Above: I don't care about a market as much as I seem to let you think, my main problem is that I hate the fact that everything is able to be perfect.

Arato · Jun 05, 2011, 10:55 PM // 22:55

Maybe they should reduce skill damage if players are wielding an uncustomized weapon by 20% like with martial weapons, and update martial weapions so that even skill bonus damage is reduced by 20%

Give incentive to customize, and make that sink so that good weapons don't just pile up. That'd create a market better than not having inscriptions.

melissa b · Jun 05, 2011, 11:00 PM // 23:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bright Star Shine

Screw BDS'es, I don't understand why anyone would want to have an anorexic dragon and even pay such a ridiculous amount for them...

Also, they wouldn't be worth that much, Bo staffs are at least 100x as rare as BDS'es and aren't even worth that..

Oh, and I'm gonna speak in simple language here, because you don't seem to understand anything and (I'm gonna say it again), you only read what you want to read.

If there would not have been inscriptions, there would still be plenty of weapons that drop. There would be plenty of weapons with desirable mods and stats, thus being a reasonable market for them, and most people would be able to afford them. Only the poor people wouldn't be able to afford them, but they could still easily get cheaper skins from collectors that work JUST AS WELL! You seem to not understand the fact that weapons that don't look as pretty work just as well.. But then again you don't seem to understand an awful lot.

I don't care about nice skins, I use skins that aren't as desirable. The only expensive stuff I got are +10/-2 shields. I'm not the evil, rich bastard that laughs and pisses on poor people and looks down upon everyone.. But convincing you for anything except your own opinion seems impossible anyway..

@Above: I don't care about a market as much as I seem to let you think, my main problem is that I hate the fact that everything is able to be perfect.

I'll be brief since I already stated my opinion and I'm sure you'll argue with everything I post

You fail to comprehend...

That 100e is not nothing...you definition of poor is so skewed from doa spead clear riches you forgot what being poor is and who would be excluded.

The fact that skins can be made perfect goes with the guild wars principle of no weapon should be superior in stats to another (skill > wealth), only superior in cosmetic qualities.

So yes to rare skins for some weapons and no to rare stats on any weapon skin.

Bright Star Shine · Jun 05, 2011, 11:09 PM // 23:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by melissa b

I'll be brief since I already stated my opinion and I'm sure you'll argue with everything I post

You fail to comprehend...

That 100e is not nothing...you definition of poor is so skewed from doa spead clear riches you forgot what being poor is and who would be excluded.

The fact that skins can be made perfect goes with the guild wars principle of no weapon should be superior in stats to another (skill > wealth), only superior in cosmetic qualities.

So yes to rare skins and no to rare stats.

On that last sentence you're agreeing with me, there are no rare stats, because they are (almost) all available from collectors and weaponsmiths..

I also took back the thing about 100e being nothing. That was exaggerated (I said that) but some weapons being worth 100k+ isn't such a big deal, but you seem to think that anything you can't afford is unfair and want it handed to you (Mini Aspect of Kanaxai, QQ much)

jimbo32 · Jun 05, 2011, 11:56 PM // 23:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arato

Maybe they should reduce skill damage if players are wielding an uncustomized weapon by 20% like with martial weapons, and update martial weapions so that even skill bonus damage is reduced by 20%

Give incentive to customize, and make that sink so that good weapons don't just pile up. That'd create a market better than not having inscriptions.

What should've been done is that you gain no benefits from the mods unless the weapon is customized. If that had been applied to everything (shields and focii included), most of the weapons that see actual use would essentially be removed from circulation.

Also, a lot of people seem to be confused about the term "rare". Most of the inscribable stuff is not rare at all. The BDS for instance - those are as common as dirt due to farming, but they fetch a decent amount of cash because they're popular. Not the same thing.

On the flipside of the coin, there was a q9 20/20 Canthan skin Fire Staff that sold several months ago for hundreds of ecto. I can't recall the amount, but iirc it was pushing 1000e. Why so high? Because it's truly rare - myself and several other experienced traders were discussing the fact that we'd never seen one for sale. Never. Conversely, inscribable versions of that staff go for 5-8k tops.

There's a thread discussing the relative rarity of staff skins, and if you check it out, you'll see that most of the top tiers are occupied by uninscribable Canthan stuff. (Note that the tiers are based on rarity only, not value - although there's usually a correlation.)

Anyway, economic nonsense aside, it's my opinion that the introduction of inscriptions watered down one of the interesting things about GW - finding that perfect weapon with exactly the skin and stats that you want. With inscriptions, it's waaay too easy, and I think that's what Bright has been trying to say all along. It doesn't necessarily have anything to do with money, and it certainly isn't related to power-trading. I hope that all of the pragmatists that love inscriptions for their utility can understand that different people enjoy different aspects of the game - for some of us, so-called oldschool weapons were (and are) just more fun. It doesn't mean that we're out to get rich at the expense of other players.

garethporlest18 · Jun 06, 2011, 12:06 AM // 00:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimbo32

Anyway, economic nonsense aside, it's my opinion that the introduction of inscriptions watered down one of the interesting things about GW - finding that perfect weapon with exactly the skin and stats that you want. With inscriptions, it's waaay too easy, and I think that's what Bright has been trying to say all along. It doesn't necessarily have anything to do with money, and it certainly isn't related to power-trading. I hope that all of the pragmatists that love inscriptions for their utility can understand that different people enjoy different aspects of the game - for some of us, so-called oldschool weapons were (and are) just more fun. It doesn't mean that we're out to get rich at the expense of other players.

Yeah, that's one of the reasons I didn't like the addition of inscriptions. Getting that rare weapon was one of my favorite parts of the game. In that way I can understand why it'd be better without the inscriptions. It is a little bit too easy to make a weapon perfect, but then again I don't think Anet wanted that to be an aspect of this game, though it turned out to be one, supposedly the majority wants what we have now.