Curse

RedStar · Jun 24, 2011, 08:34 AM // 08:34

And here we go again

Quote:

But srs if there is one thing that OP it are turtles. And all that QQ about they heal gunther need to learn wich skills are at there disposel and how to use them. For example if they have bonders what so ever.
Gaze of Contemp
Well of Profane

If they have many monks
Lingering curse
Barbs
Soul barbs
Soul Bind

And that is just one proffesion

Yep those skills work agaisnt a monk who isn't carrying any sort of hex removals, which is pretty common right ? I mean PnH, holy veil or even remove hex isn't commonly seen on monk's bars in FA right ?

And what is bad with hexes like these is that you aren't really doing any damages, you are just slowing the little red bars from going up. And what happens when 2 or more persons have the same hexes ? More pressure on the monks ? Maybe, but chances are that the second persons is quite useless and so it's more a 8v7.

But let's drop the "if" for a few seconds :
-One team wins if they can survive for 10-12 minutes, the other has the kill one guy in the back of the opposing team's base.
-One team is in a fort, get's ressurected inside that fort, and have 5 instantly repairable gates. The other team gets ressurectes outside that fort and has to cap mines (which are easy to cap for regardless of the side).
-One team's NPCs are anti melee and some are anti caster. The other team has a powerful turtle that would fire at blue butterflies if they existed....

Quote:

Cus it is srs easy luxon side when you sync with a few people

Well let's be glad that it's "easy" for a sync team to win agaisnt 8 random people....

What will never cease to amaze me are kurzicks who complain about not winning when they play a profession other than a monk or ritualist. Even a bad healer is useful. Even a kurzick with the worst build ever can always be useful by stalling the turtles, or even by running around the map because many players like to kill useless opponents.

makosi · Jun 24, 2011, 08:41 AM // 08:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

1. Luxon suck.

This is true, but the Kurzick side is generally not that much better. Given the nature of the map a bunch of terribad Kurzicks can still win while barely knowing what the game objectives are since the full timer grants them victory. Luxons can't win by accident and have to be much more in the know.

One monk or ritualist is worth two of anything else on the Kurzick side because they can stand behind NPCs and keep them alive for a long period. In fact, the Kurzicks need no damage whatsoever to win. The dervishes and wammos that the Luxons insist on bringing can't do jack about these healers. (Hint to everyone: bring friggin' casters.)

When playing Luxon I like to run an anti-caster mes with Tease/Cry of Frustration and Wastrel's Worry+Demise. I can solo the green gate + Jugger and Shame/Divert/interrupt monks and rits. Meanwhile button-smashing Wammo McMenderson and Dervy O'Balthazar are both at the Orange Commander trying to kill a sin who is solo killing commanders - both seemingly unaware that this mission is timed and has a goal. They have to be aggressively pushing in to the Fort and killing NPCs for the Turtles' benefit.

Another benefit for the Luxon folks is to learn the beauty of /resign: It really is ok to lose and it's ok to be outplayed. It's not, however, ok to lose and be outplayed then spend the next 8-10 minutes dying, resurrecting, dying resurrecting while achieving nothing other than measly points from scoring kills. The Luxons' Imperial faction reward is determined by the number of gates which have been broken at least once so take what you can get and re-load the map when the current game is clearly doomed.

On a final ranty note: If you want to bring a RoJ monk to the Luxon side then great. However there is a small stipulation in that you must bring a heal or two for the turtle (I even endorse the otherwise bad Healing Breeze for turtles since it's 15 seconds duration and degen is what kills turtles most.) If you're a RoJ monk with a pure Smiting bar then youre just a sub-par ele. The above also applies to Channeling rits.

To Chicken To Die · Jun 24, 2011, 12:11 PM // 12:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedStar

*zip*

Ofc hexes can be countered -.- everything can. So your saying you dont use any melee or ranged attacks in any PvP format because monks use commen protect skills for it. You don't use conditions because they can be removed. With your statement you can scrap every skill of the list and might aswell enter with an empty bar. No wonder it sucks since so many have that attitude. Instead of actual trying anything people only seem to be able to QQ about the other side has an this or that better. People just want a ready to win all build without even knowing what a skill does.

makosi · Jun 24, 2011, 12:19 PM // 12:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by To Chicken To Die

Ofc hexes can be countered -.- everything can. So your saying you dont use any melee or ranged attacks in any PvP format because monks use commen protect skills for it. You don't use conditions because they can be removed. With your statement you can scrap every skill of the list and might aswell enter with an empty bar. No wonder it sucks since so many have that attitude. Instead of actual trying anything people only seem to be able to QQ about the other side has an this or that better. People just want a ready to win all build without even knowing what a skill does.

You're missing the point. A nice necro build based around Soul Bind with cover hexes and lots of enchantment hate is theoretically good at Gunther. The problem is that it is mediocre at best everywhere else in the map and the propensity of heal wars at Gunther means that the healers can still manage fine even if they don't remove the hexes. Because there's just too damn many of them. Sometimes brute force and ignorance (nuking) works best.

To Chicken To Die · Jun 24, 2011, 01:06 PM // 13:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by makosi

You're missing the point. A nice necro build based around Soul Bind with cover hexes and lots of enchantment hate is theoretically good at Gunther. The problem is that it is mediocre at best everywhere else in the map and the propensity of heal wars at Gunther means that the healers can still manage fine even if they don't remove the hexes. Because there's just too damn many of them. Sometimes brute force and ignorance (nuking) works best.

And that is why there are turtles. I just played 4 matches after a long time and first was a loss we had 1 leaver 1 person that QQ cus noone would listen to him and he resinged and running around. second win at 50% third win at 90% fourth win at 60%. And tbh this is exactly the same as around a year ago when I played FA daily on luxon side. I use a Mo-P heal and hardly get a turtle killed. Once both turtles are trough both gates it almost is sure for vic unless 90% of the time has passed. And yes every opposing team had 2 monks and a rit or 3 monks today. So conclusion its the rotten player base that leaves and-or resigns and not feel the need to play active cus noone want to follow there plan. but thats in most of guildwars the rotten players thats why we have 7 heroes instead of 7 players.

makosi · Jun 24, 2011, 01:28 PM // 13:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by To Chicken To Die

And that is why there are turtles. I just played 4 matches after a long time and first was a loss we had 1 leaver 1 person that QQ cus noone would listen to him and he resinged and running around. second win at 50% third win at 90% fourth win at 60%. And tbh this is exactly the same as around a year ago when I played FA daily on luxon side. I use a Mo-P heal and hardly get a turtle killed. Once both turtles are trough both gates it almost is sure for vic unless 90% of the time has passed. And yes every opposing team had 2 monks and a rit or 3 monks today. So conclusion its the rotten player base that leaves and-or resigns and not feel the need to play active cus noone want to follow there plan. but thats in most of guildwars the rotten players thats why we have 7 heroes instead of 7 players.

If the turtles make it past the inner gates without dying or becoming stuck then it's hunky dory and the chances of winning are pretty decent. How often does this happen though?

upier · Jun 24, 2011, 01:42 PM // 13:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by makosi

This is true, but the Kurzick side is generally not that much better.

There absolutely are bad players on the Kurzick side, but I don't think they are Luxon-level bad. What I am mostly seeing is the Kurzick getting screwed over by the randomness of the teams (which means they roll teams with no supporters), whereas the Luxon just suck. And what's worse - they seem completely unwilling to change their playstyle.
(And I think I played with you (and against you). You are using a Kormir-something name on your mesmer, right?)

Quote:

Originally Posted by To Chicken To Die

And that is why there are turtles. I just played 4 matches after a long time and first was a loss we had 1 leaver 1 person that QQ cus noone would listen to him and he resinged and running around.

Hi.
I was the QQing guy (the guy that told you that you should be running in and killing NPCs and who resigned after you guys repeatedly refused to do so) that you guys refused to listen to and we lost because of it. We broke the inner gates at some 30% and till the end of the match the 6 of you couldn't even come close to breaking down the green gate after employing the super duper strategy of not taking back the mines, not running in and trying to kill people.
How could you EVER lose!?

To Chicken To Die · Jun 24, 2011, 02:19 PM // 14:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Hi.
I was the QQing guy (the guy that told you that you should be running in and killing NPCs and who resigned after you guys repeatedly refused to do so) that you guys refused to listen to and we lost because of it. We broke the inner gates at some 30% and till the end of the match the 6 of you couldn't even come close to breaking down the green gate after employing the super duper strategy of not taking back the mines, not running in and trying to kill people.
How could you EVER lose!?

Thank you for showing how a rotten person thinks. I still wonder if you really think your right or that you are just ruining the game at the expanse of other for your own entertainement. They don´t listen so I do not particepate any more and just run in and get killed. Typical mindset of the big part GW players.

In case if you were not aware of your own playing. What you did you runned past some enemys and going solo against 2 players plus 4 NPC and get killed in 3 sec. While if you joined the battle next to the turtle like what happens in most matches the enemys becomes overruned and the turtles move forward bit by bit. Now the dmg on our side wasn´t high as you stated 30% after breaking in is just slow so it would have taken a bit more time. But when some idiot runs in saying we all just should go kamikaze and let the turtles be killed and therefore losing even more dmg. Well thats a big part that costed our lose. (and yes we had a leaver) (and lesser exp player, bit atleast they did a good job and were also part of the other victorys battles)

upier · Jun 24, 2011, 03:00 PM // 15:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by To Chicken To Die

Thank you for showing how a rotten person thinks. I still wonder if you really think your right or that you are just ruining the game at the expanse of other for your own entertainement. They don´t listen so I do not particepate any more and just run in and get killed. Typical mindset of the big part GW players.

In case if you were not aware of your own playing. What you did you runned past some enemys and going solo against 2 players plus 4 NPC and get killed in 3 sec. While if you joined the battle next to the turtle like what happens in most matches the enemys becomes overruned and the turtles move forward bit by bit. Now the dmg on our side wasn´t high as you stated 30% after breaking in is just slow so it would have taken a bit more time. But when some idiot runs in saying we all just should go kamikaze and let the turtles be killed and therefore losing even more dmg. Well thats a big part that costed our lose. (and yes we had a leaver) (and lesser exp player, bit atleast they did a good job and were also part of the other victorys battles)

When a person runs in solo, the problem isn't with the person running in solo - the problem is with the people that DON'T run in. I don't see why is it so hard to understand that the defending side will run in after you if you run past them - thus moving the battle closer to the green room, which is where you ultimately want to be.
And when the team is so slow as you guys were (and as normal teams are) and engages in unnecessary battles, the people that do know how to play the game are easily picked off one by one inside while the rest of the team fights a battle somewhere outside and such battles can never lead to a victory.

There is a timer in FA and if the Luxon don't strike fast the Kurzick win by default. There is no time to pussy around - and if you are playing a supporter, then your job is to support the people that are smart enough to push forward, rather than the people or turtles that are stuck somewhere behind.

RedStar · Jun 24, 2011, 10:47 PM // 22:47

Quote:

Ofc hexes can be countered -.- everything can. So your saying you dont use any melee or ranged attacks in any PvP format because monks use commen protect skills for it. You don't use conditions because they can be removed. With your statement you can scrap every skill of the list and might aswell enter with an empty bar. No wonder it sucks since so many have that attitude. Instead of actual trying anything people only seem to be able to QQ about the other side has an this or that better. People just want a ready to win all build without even knowing what a skill does.

What I mean is that while that build can be use to counter one healer, against 2 or more is starts to become almost useless. And 2 person with the same build on the team won't provide twice more help.

A similar problem can be seen with luxon healers. One is good, two is good, three and more starts to become a problem because the team may not do enough damage (and stalling a turtle isn't really hard...).

And yes, every skill can be countered. But play around in FA and notice which skill gets countered and which one doesn't. Hexes are way up high on the priority list.

Quote:

Once both turtles are trough both gates it almost is sure for vic unless 90% of the time has passed.

Each match is random. Getting the turtles past the inner gates isn't something that hard (unless it has changed in 3 weeks...), but getting them to move forward from that point can be hard because it is so easy to have their attention.

I do agree that dumb players don't help the situation. But the kurzick side is much more forgiving. Even running around aimlessly can be helpful.

Quote:

When a person runs in solo, the problem isn't with the person running in solo - the problem is with the people that DON'T run in

I wasn't in your guys' match, but there is time to rush in and a time to slowly fight your way into the base.
4-5 luxons trying to run past 4-5 kurzicks is a bad idea. If you die, you rez 20 seconds away, if they die, they rez 5 seconds away from Gunther... A kurzick rarely cares about dying : they rez near the fight and with full energy.

qazwersder · Jun 24, 2011, 11:12 PM // 23:12

The players on neither side are better than those on the other. Just the objective is easier to grasp on one side than the other. Its kill anything you see coming towards you verse's avoid most foes and attack a specific one. OK it doesnt sound hard but allowing for some players not knowing what they are doing and some not doing what is best, it soon becomes skewed.

Half · Jun 25, 2011, 12:22 AM // 00:22

Quote:

PvP is about the challenge. Balancing it wouldn't create much of that. I don't think Anet should balance it, they haven't since factions came out and hope they don't start now.

No wtf PvP is about competition, wherein fair competition produces challenge.

cthulhu reborn · Jun 25, 2011, 06:48 AM // 06:48

I don't know if it isn't balanced. It really depends on the players a lot who wins. If you have a luxon team with decent players they can win. Also, I agree that turtles accompanied by monks are a real pain to kill. Still, I am not too bothered anymore because the waiting times at FA are much longer than JQ I've noticed so I prefer going JQ just for that reason alone.

But this aside, I wonder where the OP gets the idea that so many people are kurzick. From what I've seen there are more luxons and luxon guilds than kurzick. They generally have more faction holding towns than kurzicks as it is.

upier · Jun 25, 2011, 07:20 AM // 07:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedStar

I wasn't in your guys' match, but there is time to rush in and a time to slowly fight your way into the base.
4-5 luxons trying to run past 4-5 kurzicks is a bad idea. If you die, you rez 20 seconds away, if they die, they rez 5 seconds away from Gunther... A kurzick rarely cares about dying : they rez near the fight and with full energy.

Which shows superbly why it makes no sense whatsoever to ever fight kurzick players. Even if you win the fight, they'll be RIGHT back - except that they'll be good as new while you are worn from the battle you just finished.

You run past them and focus on the mesmers and the eles ate the gates. Everything else the turtle can finish - it's in it's path anyway.
The more of you that run, the bigger the chance that a bunch of you make it. There is a reason why SF and touchers actually still work here.
(Unless the Kurzick are seriously good so that a group of 5 Kurzick will be able to kill 5 Luxon in a matter of seconds - in which case they are just better than you and you are going to lose because of it.)

*da slaya* · Jun 25, 2011, 08:05 PM // 20:05

lol I just think they will most likely not change it.

That being said I personally have been boycotting and have not played fa in at least a year

why play a game that is obviously imbalanced against you as a luxon player.

It's not just the bugged turtles, the far away rez etc it is also the npc on the luxon side that need rebalancing. far too much melee.

In any case I do play JQ since it is a fairly balanced game.

Solution is not play it and find a faction farming guild or play JQ.

FA should die a slow death until it is fixed.

All luxon players should just stop playing it lol

cthulhu reborn · Jun 25, 2011, 10:26 PM // 22:26

You know, I was thinking about this but let's be honest...you get Imperial points now and you can make them luxon or kurzick as you please (even balth).

So if it bugs you so much, go play on the kurzick side....it doesn't matter one d*mn anymore which side you play on because you get to pick which faction points you want regardless.

makosi · Jun 25, 2011, 10:41 PM // 22:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by cthulhu reborn

You know, I was thinking about this but let's be honest...you get Imperial points now and you can make them luxon or kurzick as you please (even balth).

So if it bugs you so much, go play on the kurzick side....it doesn't matter one d*mn anymore which side you play on because you get to pick which faction points you want regardless.

That's not a good philosophy for the either side because the Kurzicks would have to wait endlessly for a game if the Luxons migrated. It would be even less faction per hour I think.

The solution is in the hands of the developers.

Lhim · Jun 25, 2011, 10:43 PM // 22:43

It's not always about faction....gasp....
Some people just enjoy the format and map, despite the fact that is imbalanced. The setup will never allow for a perfect balance, since it's easier to defend here. But at least they should (but won't) fix the numerous bugs that plague FA. That would be a major improvement.

cthulhu reborn · Jun 26, 2011, 05:17 PM // 17:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by makosi

That's not a good philosophy for the either side because the Kurzicks would have to wait endlessly for a game if the Luxons migrated. It would be even less faction per hour I think.

The solution is in the hands of the developers.

Good or not, it's possible and I don't think that so many people are freaking out over this.

In the end it's all about what's in your team and there have been plenty of noob teams on the kurzick side just the same. I still don't buy it's that imbalanced. I've seen more good healers on the luxon side than on the kurzick side anyways and plenty of kurzick players who fail to targer the healers, completely frustrated with how impossible it is to kill the turtles.

There are noobs on both sides and that's where you notice a certain advantage: total noobs don't get what they need to do and that's where the kurzicks ahve the advantage, but as soon as the luxons know what to do, this advantage is gone. It's all about healing turtles and getting the respawn points and the rest depends on the team build which is random.

Luxons can play on the kurzick side but don't generally...so I guess they still win battles too. It's just human to think that because it happened to you 10 times, everybody must have the same problem...but the longer you play the longer you realise there's a lot of random luck involved in what sort of team you have in there and that's a bigger factor than the perceived imbalance.

RedStar · Jun 26, 2011, 06:40 PM // 18:40

Quote:

Which shows superbly why it makes no sense whatsoever to ever fight kurzick players. Even if you win the fight, they'll be RIGHT back - except that they'll be good as new while you are worn from the battle you just finished.

You run past them and focus on the mesmers and the eles ate the gates. Everything else the turtle can finish - it's in it's path anyway.
The more of you that run, the bigger the chance that a bunch of you make it. There is a reason why SF and touchers actually still work here.
(Unless the Kurzick are seriously good so that a group of 5 Kurzick will be able to kill 5 Luxon in a matter of seconds - in which case they are just better than you and you are going to lose because of it.)

They will be right back if you have broken every gates and are trying to get passed them while they are right outside the green gate (A situation where you better wait for turtles instead of getting killed one by one).

The turtles can't finish everything. If they are between the inner and outer gates and right outside the inner gates, you should be the one killing enemies because it's extremely easy to stall the turtles in those places.
You should do your best to get the turtles inside quickly. Rushing in to get the enemies attention might work from time to time, but you are in their bases, and generally they will outnumber the number of people rushing.

You can try to rush and kill the NPCs (except the Juggernaut because he has more health and armor) at the Green gate because the monks are probably not thinking about protecting it at that time, but only do that if you can actually quickly kill them (10 seconds or less).