Curse

tummlykins · Jun 16, 2011, 04:08 AM // 04:08

It's pretty clear from the wait times alone that Fort Aspenwood has become a seriously one sided arena. There is a reason far more people play the Kurzick side than the Luxon side, and it's not because they love playing a monk.

Fort Aspenwood was probably never going to be a perfectly balanced arena - with random teams (which is one of the most balancing and unbalancing factors) and two unique win conditions for each side, it was going to be impossible to have both win conditions equally as challenging as the other, but a combination of bugs, AI exploits and the defensive nature of the map have all combined to result in a pretty heavy favour towards the Kurzick players. This is why wait times on that side of the map are so long.

Instead of requiring Kurzick players to take mines and run amber to Gunther win, they simply have to heal and protect gates and kill anyone who comes close to their green gate or Gunther. With a random team with varied experience, it is quite common to have only one or two people attacking the green gate, resulting in them being easy to shut down.

On top of this, the Luxon requirements to win are much harder. You actually need to do something - you need to kill a lot of NPCs and travel a decent distance while fighting through a team of players equal to your own in addition to an entire map designed to support your enemy. Luxon players need to actively work their way to the green gate and gunther, making sure to hold a res shrine and send in turtles along the way. They need to know when to prioritise NPC targets (such as gate NPCs or mesmers) and when to run past or ignore Kurzick players who are between them and their win condition. Kurzick players simply need to attack the nearest target to the green gate to win. It's easily possible for an entire team of clueless Kurzick players to win the arena simply by killing any Luxons that come close to the inside of their base. The depth of knowledge for a Luxon team to work towards a win condition is often unconventional (attacking the nearest blue dot is an incredibly easy way to lose) and thus not friendly towards newer players.

Not only do you resurrect further away than your opponent, but your only NPC support (to "balance" out home field advantage + tonnes of NPCs) is an incredibly easily exploited, distracted or killed turtle. I'm not going to argue an offensive turtle, when hitting the right targets, isn't a huge advantage. Two siege turtles firing on Gunther and the two gatekeepers are often enough to win with a decently offensive team (getting that far you have to play better than your opponent anyway) unless your opponents have three or more healers and even then you have a good chance if the turtles remain alive and fire on Gunther. The problem is the turtle can be "stalled" with a limitless number of AI exploiting builds, or in the case of the orange gate, by standing in a spot which can't be reached by the turtle at all, causing it to fire at the Kurzick exploiter but never even doing as much as one hp damage. It is also out of reach of Luxon players until they break the inside gate and then run past (and aggro) the ranger NPC in addition to whatever players are defending the AI exploting person stalling the turtle. Even if that person is killed, they res seconds later and can easily return to the same spot to stall the turtle again, often running a spirit lord build offering a huge ally wide buff to a large portion of the map while negating an entire turtle offensive team with little to no risk of being countered in any way.

On top of this there are many other minor ways to exploit the turtle AI to constantly aggro them resulting in them never moving forward and effectively stalling a team which relies on the turtle squads for support when attempting to break through the base defenses. This is before you even consider the reality that in four out of five matches the purple turtle will stall on the outside gate, refusing to move forward and effectively resulting in a seriously crippled offense on that side of the map for the rest of the game.

With all of these bugs and exploits favouring the Kurzick side, it's not uncommon to see entire matches where Kurzick players never leave the base, one player stalling the orange turtle while the purple turtle is bugged and the monks supporting NPCs while the rest of the Kurzick DPS easily picks off any Luxons who attempt to advance without the support of a turtle, into an enemy base filled with an equally powerful team of players and a bunch of NPCs. These matches are still winnable but they are dramatically weighted in favour of the Kurzick side.

On top of all this, because the map favours a defensive Kurzick side, it's also quite common to see teams of three to five monks which automatically results in a win, regardless of how skilled the Luxon players are. There are always counters to monks, but when you have a random team of eight, it's rare to have the adequate counters and offensive builds which can stand a chance against a large team of monks. Since the last big FA balance update, the match times were made much shorter for a Kurzick win, not by encouraging them to run more amber or actively do something, just a flat decrease in the time they need to defend for, while at the same time most of the above turtle AI exploits were introduced (increased aggro range resulting in turtles firing on players they simply can't reach etc). This forces Luxon offense to overcome all of the above challenges in a shorter period of time.

While Luxon players tend to have a need for a slightly more diverse team (usually favouring at least one, preferably no more than two healers, nuking elementalists and players capable of taking down monks, preferably as few melee as possible due to the heavy melee hate and high knowledge base required for any melee to be effective) the Kurzick side has several easy exploit builds they often run (spirit lord, turtle aggro and stall dervish) a heavy emphasis on monks or ritualists and pretty much any DPS class will also be incredibly effective (but mesmers shutting down aggressive Luxon nukers and turtle stalling/killing ledge rangers are also incredibly effective).

The arena is highly imbalanced on many levels with many easy exploits resulting in the turtles becoming usless and Luxon offense being crippled. There is almost no incentive for Kurzick players to bring aggressive builds (which involve running amber to Gunther to reduce match lengths) when it's so easy to defend and cripple the Luxon offense.

At this point in the game's life, do you think ArenaNet will ever rebalance the arena to give more incentives to Kurzick players to be less defensive and more aggressive (instead of favouring large monk teams which would cripple you in any other PvP or PvE part of the game) and hopefully replace the turtle mechanic with something that actually works? They have tried several times in the past to fix the turtle stall bugs, but it consistently happens in almost every other match. Is FA too low of a priority to get the attention it has needed since Factions launch considering the other projects the Live Team is working on? It's current state is more akin to a beta testing arena with all the bugs and exploits rather than a ready to be released arena.

Ximvotn · Jun 16, 2011, 04:14 AM // 04:14

I don't believe it would be re-balanced for awhile it at all. I'm pretty sure there too busy of course with the sequel and Winds of Change. I guess the only choice is to go in with melee and caster counters, but the favor does seem to lean to one side. It's all random enter so not like you can control the outcome of your team anyway.

Grav · Jun 16, 2011, 04:19 AM // 04:19

Unless an FA fix is actually part of the plan for Winds Of Change, I don't expect it to ever improve.

thedarkmarine · Jun 16, 2011, 04:35 AM // 04:35

being able to switch sides balances things out. you can either wait longer for a better chance to win, or wait shorter for a worse chance to win.

no one is forced to be on the worse side, and there is a point where it's disadvantageous to be on the better side

Our Virus · Jun 16, 2011, 04:51 AM // 04:51

Bad players pick easy win, good players like a "challenge." balanced enough as is IMO.

tummlykins · Jun 16, 2011, 05:41 AM // 05:41

Balance is about an even distribution, to say one is good for bad players and one is good for players who want a challenge is to essentially state the arena is unbalanced. When players are basically playing for rewards and are choosing a side of the arena to play on simply because it gives greater rewards (because it wins more often due to imbalance) something is wrong.

It's more challenging to keep a team alive in high end PvP (or even PvE) if you only bring restoration rits instead of hybird monks. Good skilled players will play monks because challenge should be from equally skilled players opposing each other under similalrly weighted conditions, not because you've picked something that is handicapped by poor game design.

The only decision people are making these days is do they want easy and likely wins with fewer matches (due to other people wanting the easy wins) or do they want more losses with harder wins, more losses but shorter wait times due to the high frequency of frustrating matches (ai exploits, matches with predetermined outcomes due to how many monks spawn on the other side and turtle bugs). That's not balance.

cataphract · Jun 16, 2011, 06:03 AM // 06:03

I think you're obsessing with FA. There are a number of faster ways to obtain faction points.

chowmein69 · Jun 16, 2011, 06:24 AM // 06:24

it won't be rebalanced

Our Virus · Jun 16, 2011, 06:41 AM // 06:41

Well then buddy I got 2 solutions for you.
1) Learn real pvp
2) Learn real alliance faction farming

Dami · Jun 16, 2011, 08:39 AM // 08:39

It has been a long known fact that the kurzicks have the edge here, but as it's in kurzick lands maybe they were supposed to.
My guild changed to luxon to start on that title and tbh, i win alot more JQ as a luxon now, and it's in luxon lands.
PvP is about the challenge. Balancing it wouldn't create much of that. I don't think Anet should balance it, they haven't since factions came out and hope they don't start now.

refer · Jun 16, 2011, 09:49 AM // 09:49

Hell no. I've been playing it for a couple years almost non stop and every post or something I've wrote on the wiki about it is ignored by developers and the community at large.

What it needs more than a rebalance are random npcs. It is just WAY too pro caster. The things that Mesmers and Necros can do from either side stands so strong against melee and other professions it's ridiculous.

I also completely agree about Luxons needing to be more knowledgable. That is absolutely correct. Sucks that most are dumb as a bag of rocks and unwilling to learn. I even have done some grief testing where I'd spam aneurysm and open free gates, but no, they STILL lose. They even attack griefers, even down to if you explained what the skill does. I don't use the word noob since I think it's stupid but those are the actions of a true noob. There is no defense you can make for that kind of behavior. Pathetic and yes, justifies the Suxon term to also being accurate. I also see a HIGH amount of forgotten turtles, it is a constant annoyance. I have done testing on that too and it can be forgot for usually 30s+ which is a big amount of time... people don't get it in their head that you go when the squad dies. IMMEDIATELY. Yes YOU, you died first so go. I don't care what you role is. If nobody dies, somebody call it first. It's like my job to release turtles. Forget that. And people also can't understand that you have the WHOLE GAME FOR GREEN. Attacking green first accomplishes nothing 9 times out of 10. You all think you are special or have a killer build, but you nuked in seconds... they just try it over and over. Clear the center first, it cannot be fixed. Very few should be allowed to break away and go nuts: domination spam, SF anything, touchers, anybody else get the hell out.

refer · Jun 16, 2011, 09:57 AM // 09:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dami

It has been a long known fact that the kurzicks have the edge here, but as it's in kurzick lands maybe they were supposed to.
My guild changed to luxon to start on that title and tbh, i win alot more JQ as a luxon now, and it's in luxon lands.

Anet hates Luxons. No idea why they are biggoted but it's so easy to see, anything else is just ignorance.

In FA Kurzicks get an advantage AND larger reward when they win.

In JQ, it may take place on Luxon territory, but Luxons get no advantage... and they get no more faction than Kurzicks if they win. And the ONLY reason why LUxons are winning now more is cause Kurzicks are pouring over from their side due to Imperial faction, period.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dami

PvP is about the challenge. Balancing it wouldn't create much of that. I don't think Anet should balance it, they haven't since factions came out and hope they don't start now.

If both sides are not balanced then there is no challenge for one side... they have it easy. That goes against what you said.

Shayne Hawke · Jun 16, 2011, 10:01 AM // 10:01

Sure, FA could be rebalanced soon.

But it will never be balanced. By design, that is impossible.

gremlin · Jun 16, 2011, 11:31 AM // 11:31

The whole idea was flawed from the start.

Factions was an attempt to get more people interested in pvp by making it part of the pve game, part way through pve and suddenly you are offered a pvp experience.
To make it more complicated the side you were currently playing was the side you ended up fighting for in the pvp, guilds allied with one side or the other and fought for control of outposts, the front line of the pve map changed almost hourly.

It was an interesting experiment but it failed, bound to really because to play the pve part of the game you eventually had to explore all areas and suddenly found yourself on the opposing side.

Hopefully experiment will never be repeated, fixed nope rebalanced maybe but to what end.

Hanok Odbrook · Jun 16, 2011, 02:20 PM // 14:20

I have been playing FA since Factions came out, and even more so within the last month or so since there are threads like this popping up every other day. TBH, tracking all my wins/losses playing from either side, I am pretty much 50/50, which tells me that (as mentioned by others here and in the countless other threads), the true unbalance comes from the players playing the match. When I can literally have 3-4 of the Luxons chasing me (as Kurzick) in circles around the outside of the fort, then of course they are going to loose. The problem stems from the Luxons not playing smart. I have been in matches where half the Kurzes were monks and we still won the match as Luxons, because we worked as a team and played smart.

The last stretch where I really played the heck out of the area a week or so ago, I saw 12 straight losses on the Kurzick side. Yes there are some issues in the arena, such as the turtles sticking (out of over 200 matches, only saw it 3 times, though), and other things like Rangers being able to cap the orange quarry from inside the fort, but all relatively minor and all have been overcome in numerous matches I have played.

Hanok

Wyndy · Jun 16, 2011, 02:26 PM // 14:26

I love playing the Luxon side. It may be unbalanced, but the wins are so much sweeter. Wait times are less and to win we only have to kill Gunther, not wait for the clock to run down. Luxon side wins more often than you think.

wilebill · Jun 16, 2011, 02:30 PM // 14:30

Nah, don't think they will rebalance it.

If after Balthazar and you are a Luxon, go do JQ.

Me, last two levels of Luxon up to 12 ran Mount Quinkai HM VQ. Get about 11,000 points per run in what? 20 minutes or less. Do this each day for couple months.

Shame really. Love Fort Aspenwood. But if you are Luxon, you are doomed at FA!

Lhim · Jun 16, 2011, 02:52 PM // 14:52

I don't think they will after all this time. They should though, because it's one of the few fun formats with PvP elements that I enjoy. And based on the number of people playing it, I'm not the only one.

Painbringer · Jun 16, 2011, 03:12 PM // 15:12

They will balance it whe the servers shut down

The turtle bug / door heals seem simple but for some reason they are not, or atleast off the radar

One advantage is you do not wait to long to play as a luxon

Kanyatta · Jun 16, 2011, 04:36 PM // 16:36

There's been thousands of threads like this in Sardelac Sanitarium about balancing FA and fixing the "turtle bugs." I usually play the Luxon side because I find it easier to win. Seriously, you just have to roll a character with a high-dps spike and it's not difficult. The Gatekeepers don't have insane amounts of health, just like, 600. Plus they don't really react fast enough with prot spirit to be a gamebreaker. As long as the Kurzicks didn't get 3 bond monks on their team, it's not a hard win. Also, from personal experience, the turtles only get stuck about once every 20 matches from the Luxon side.

In a nutshell, I think FA is as balanced as it could possibly be. I typically win about 80% of my games on the Luxon side. Just be intelligent and take a decent build. As long as you don't get any leechers/ragequitters on your team, there's enough PvE noobs playing on either side to rack up easy faction.