Curse

MisterB · Aug 27, 2011, 10:32 PM // 22:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

If you want to nerf MoI in PvP, then why not just reduce the armor-ignoring damage in PvP? That way you arn't unnecessarily nerfing the skill in PvE.

Why would anyone use Mirror of Ice in PvE?

Alay · Aug 27, 2011, 10:55 PM // 22:55

Oh sweet! I can finally use Smiter's Boon!

Killed u man · Aug 27, 2011, 11:38 PM // 23:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

Should Splinter Weapon then become armor-affected along with Ancestors' Rage? Because "fixing" both of those will essentially nerf the only useful rit builds that aren't retarded spirit spamming by 50% in PvE. Clearly Anet has always balanced these skills with full knowledge that they have been armor ignoring. If anything we should have more armor ignoring skills (seeing how that actually makes them useful for PvE), the problem with certain skills in PvP can easily be addressed by actually balancing them.

Well, I'm not arguing as to wether or not these skills should be nerfed. All I said was that these skills are "glitched" as in: the skill description does not represent the skill correctly or the skill ignores certain game mechanics.

Reverend Dr · Aug 27, 2011, 11:40 PM // 23:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

If you want to nerf MoI in PvP, then why not just reduce the armor-ignoring damage in PvP? That way you arn't unnecessarily nerfing the skill in PvE.

Because I have the authority to make skill changes.

Kunder · Aug 28, 2011, 03:28 AM // 03:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

Well, I'm not arguing as to wether or not these skills should be nerfed. All I said was that these skills are "glitched" as in: the skill description does not represent the skill correctly or the skill ignores certain game mechanics.

Its no glitch if skills are working as intended, and the majority of armor ignoring or armor respecting skills don't state so in their descriptions. You are simply conjuring up some imagined rules for how you think guild wars should be that do not exist.

Lanier · Aug 28, 2011, 05:00 AM // 05:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by MisterB

Why would anyone use Mirror of Ice in PvE?

Its the only way to even kind of do damage with a water build, and I occasionally enjoy running water builds.

Regardless, you're post is kind of beside the point. Is the fact that MoI is not commonly used in PvE a reason to nerf it in PvE? Of course not. If you want to see it nerfed in PvE, then fine. I mean its not all that big of a deal to me since I still don't use it that often. Still, you should at least give an actual reason.

This reminds me of the situation when Mind Wrack was nerfed in PvE and PvP due to PvP issues. It was never that big of a deal, but no justification was given to the PvE nerf, and it seemed kind of silly to nerf a skill in a format where it wasn't OP.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

Because I have the authority to make skill changes.

Huh?

DiogoSilva · Aug 28, 2011, 05:45 AM // 05:45

MoI can be nerfed for pve easily, because it's already "nerfed" for pve enough to the point that it no longer matters.

The only way to "save" MoI in pve is to make a buffed split. For now, it's a skill that does little in one format and has consequences on the other.

Jeydra · Aug 28, 2011, 05:46 AM // 05:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

Its the only way to even kind of do damage with a water build, and I occasionally enjoy running water builds.

The best damage builds with Water are based on AP + PvE skills + Deep Freeze + Maelstrom ...

I've got nothing against a MoI nerf in PvE. It's a useless skill, so making it even more useless can't hurt. Unless of course ANet wants to split PvP / PvE versions of the skill as well, when they should just buff the PvE version.

I'm not convinced MoI (PvP) is overpowered, though.

AndrewSX · Aug 28, 2011, 08:59 AM // 08:59

Well, i'm just saying that MoI or A-Rage dmg is labeled as "lighting" and "cold". Any other spell with this kind of dmg respect armor. If those do not, or is wrong the description, or they do not work as they were intended....or at least remove the dmg type from skill, like now looks just like a bug.

Lanier · Aug 28, 2011, 03:25 PM // 15:25

Inferior =/= useless. Sure its inferior in PvE, but its not useless.

Quote:

The best damage builds with Water are based on AP + PvE skills + Deep Freeze + Maelstrom ...

I'm referring to builds that rely on the water skills for damage as opposed to the eotn PvE skills (which I never use as an ele anyway due to none of them actually making sense for an ele to use - I mean really, an ele that can summon assassins?)

I don't understand this logic that because a build isn't top-of-the-line in PvE, it is ok to nerf it. I mean I know that MoI is sub-par... but yea, I haven't actually seen any arguement as to why it should be nerfed. Not everyone uses the OP crap that we see nowadays, some like to have fun with somewhat-less-useful-but-more-fun builds.

Plus, I don't really think its prevalence is a bad thing in PvP anyway. Haven't PvPers been whining about the OPness of dervishes recently? Why would you want to nerf a build that counters frontliners, and one that doesn't even seem all that OP anyway?

Skyy High · Aug 28, 2011, 04:05 PM // 16:05

If a skill isn't used in a format, there's no reason to split it to save it in that format. Splitting should only be used in a situation where there is a good reason to save a useful skill from being otherwise destroyed.

Outerworld · Aug 28, 2011, 04:48 PM // 16:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

I don't understand this logic that because a build isn't top-of-the-line in PvE, it is ok to nerf it. I mean I know that MoI is sub-par... but yea, I haven't actually seen any arguement as to why it should be nerfed. Not everyone uses the OP crap that we see nowadays, some like to have fun with somewhat-less-useful-but-more-fun builds.

Try and think of it more like "What benefit would there be to splitting a skill that gets little to no use in PvE?". It would just be more work for no apparent reason.

Reverend Dr · Aug 28, 2011, 05:08 PM // 17:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

Huh?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

If you want to nerf MoI in PvP, then why not just reduce the armor-ignoring damage in PvP? That way you arn't unnecessarily nerfing the skill in PvE.

We've proposed many changes to MoI since it was changed. Ball is not in our court.

Lanier · Aug 28, 2011, 11:58 PM // 23:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

If a skill isn't used in a format, there's no reason to split it to save it in that format. Splitting should only be used in a situation where there is a good reason to save a useful skill from being otherwise destroyed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Outerworld

Try and think of it more like "What benefit would there be to splitting a skill that gets little to no use in PvE?". It would just be more work for no apparent reason.

Valid points. I guess I have always been under the impression that actually instituting a split took a (relatively) small amount of time.

betterjonjon · Aug 29, 2011, 03:08 AM // 03:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

Valid points. I guess I have always been under the impression that actually instituting a split took a (relatively) small amount of time.

I think the main reason isn't that it takes a small amount of time, but that they have said that splitting skills actually reduces the effectiveness of the game engine

Kunder · Aug 29, 2011, 03:46 AM // 03:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndrewSX

Well, i'm just saying that MoI or A-Rage dmg is labeled as "lighting" and "cold". Any other spell with this kind of dmg respect armor. If those do not, or is wrong the description, or they do not work as they were intended....or at least remove the dmg type from skill, like now looks just like a bug.

At the same time, every other spell (even ones that do physical/elemental damage) that buffs another effect's damage has always done so by buffing with armor ignoring damage. See Conjures/Splinter Weapon/Attack Skills. When you try to maintain symmetry one way you break it another, as MoI will suddenly be the ONLY buff in the game that isn't armor ignoring. Heck, there may even be engine issues getting MoI to be armor respecting. If the damage equation only lets effects that buff damage come in after the armor check currently, making the change may require a lot of effort delving into what has to be one of the most complex parts of the game.

OTOH, we can simply nerf MoI because its overpowered. You know, like we do to every other skill that is overpowered (laugh with me here OK?).

Quote:

Originally Posted by betterjonjon

I think the main reason isn't that it takes a small amount of time, but that they have said that splitting skills actually reduces the effectiveness of the game engine

Yeah, bullshit. There is absolutely no conceivable reason it would be so unless the Guild Wars engine was a project for someone's Computer Programming 101 course. Yet somehow I have seen this little "fact" repeated dozens of times with absolutely no evidence other than wishy washy unsourced "I heard someone say Anet say it". Even in the unlikely case that anyone can procure a quote, chances are 100:1 that it was them making it up on the spot to get annoying people to stop asking them to split every skill in the game for no real reason.

Coast · Aug 29, 2011, 09:44 AM // 09:44

simple: make the dmg half of what it currently is, or 66% if 50% is too harsh

Skyy High · Aug 29, 2011, 05:00 PM // 17:00

I don't think the game engine "issue" is worth arguing over (except, possibly, if someone were to suggest splitting every skill in the game). The reason that I say splitting should be done only when necessary is because I play both PvP and PvE, and it's already frustrating trying to remember all of the differences.

Lanier · Aug 29, 2011, 06:07 PM // 18:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

I don't think the game engine "issue" is worth arguing over (except, possibly, if someone were to suggest splitting every skill in the game). The reason that I say splitting should be done only when necessary is because I play both PvP and PvE, and it's already frustrating trying to remember all of the differences.

I hardly think that the ability to memorize skills should affect skill updates.