Curse

Mouse at Large · Aug 31, 2011, 07:32 AM // 07:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by ErrantVenture

No it just requires intelligent use of a skill instead of spamming it on recharge. Gale is the perfect example. It's a powerful spell with a short recharge which would normally allow it to be spammed. Exhaustion forces the player to be intelligent in his use of the skill: he cannot spam it so he must use it tactfully or he will get hit with a significant punishment. It's an outstanding pvp mechanic.

As this proposition stands, all it does is penalise effective spells. For this to be a viable option, I would suggest that any spells it affects would have to be considerably buffed. Then I could (perhaps) see the point as it would promote careful targeting over spamming. Still don't see this as an "outstanding pvp mechanic"

And on a general point, without having to rework a whole heap of individual ele spells, you could increase the pvp effectiveness of eles by making Intensity affect spells to give a) extra AP based on levels in ES b) convert damage to armour ignoring c) add + x damage based on levels in ES or some combination of all three. Only 1 spell to change rather than a complete rework

*Edit* Of course, I'd love to see a revamp on the other problem areas as AndrewSX mentions, but I'd rather see something done immediately to boost ele damage effectiveness whilst continuing to work on other problems. I'm greedy - I want jam today AND jam tomorrow

AndrewSX · Aug 31, 2011, 07:59 AM // 07:59

I have to choose between make a pve skill godlike (forcing all eles to use it to be succesful) or do a major overhaul, i prefer the latter, even if takes more time/effort.

Dmg isn't the only problem...Wards, Water Line, Glyphs, PBAoE (only on self), DoTAoE (since scattering AI), and E-management....all this stuff needs help (in different measures).

Btw, i'm waiting for Ranger updates too. Traps, Rituals, Preparations, Pets need rework just like Elementalist do. Can't say on Para (never palyed 1 seriously)... Smiting is the last in line imo.

-All by PvE perspective.

urania · Aug 31, 2011, 08:27 AM // 08:27

smiting has always either been too good or too shitty to bother with given the alternatives. i dont know why they go down that rabbit hole again.

aspi · Aug 31, 2011, 08:36 AM // 08:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

smiting has always either been too good or too shitty to bother with given the alternatives. i dont know why they go down that rabbit hole again.

Because the jesus beam owns :S
Ok just one skill but still I do hope they manage to make a good smiting monk. I deleted all my previous attempts with monking because I find it incredibly boring.

instanceskiller · Aug 31, 2011, 10:26 AM // 10:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by DiogoSilva

Keep in mind that I just listed the way I did, because that's how Anet did.

I did keep that in mind. What I simply meant by I did not like the way you listed it, was that you listed them as though they were THE least viable pve options of all professions AND attributes, when there were others. I'm sure Anet did not say they were the least viable, just that they were currently looking at them as they were among the most least viable offensive professions/attribute lines.

DiogoSilva · Aug 31, 2011, 10:52 AM // 10:52

I don't see what's so outstanding on the exhaustion mechanic. Gale is probably the only or one of the very few good exceptions. Well, shock and maybe Mind Shock, as well. Anything else? Other than a few skills, exhaustion is a boring mechanic, as the moment it is applied, it is glued there in your energy bar for 30*x seconds.

Having some skills that removed 30secs of exhastion tied to already-used energy-management skills, preferebly the ones with high recharge (ex: glyph of lesser energy, and more), and then sticking exhaustion to a lot more of good skills, would probably make things far more interesting. An ele would have to manage his exhaustion level by not spamming too much skills in-between the recharge of the glyph, but at the same time, they would be able to exhaust himself enough because they would be able to remove (some of) it. More interactive, would take more advantage of energy storage as it is, and then please, please remove the annoying attunement gimmick and make skills cheaper (but with the exhaustion).

Meanwhile, as their plans for exhaustion take into consideration cross-profession combos, it seems like they're trying for something quite the opposite. If so, energy storage as it is probably won't be needed anymore, which would also present a good opportunity to make it work like the attunements, and then please, please remove the annoying attunement gimmick.

But I won't get my expectations high for this. Skill changes will be enough to make me happy.

zwei2stein · Aug 31, 2011, 10:59 AM // 10:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bristlebane

It would be interesting if Exhaustion were a damage reduction effect rather than energy, then it could be applied to any profession. For example, exhaustion could do a 20% damage reduction, of where 20% is recovered in 30 seconds. Using a spammable skill 5 times would then nearly put your damage output to zero. This would include all martial and spell damage. Damage dealing skills with exhausting would deal it's damage and effect and exhaustion would affect any following damage.

That equals granting all enemies you hit virtual 8 armor.

With this setup, no-one would use exhaustion causing skills because 10% damage reduction lasting 30 secconds (yay for integrals) is very powerfull.

Spikes would definitelly not do it and neither would pressure.

That is not interesting, that is stupid.

DiogoSilva · Aug 31, 2011, 11:07 AM // 11:07

Maybe decrease the ele's casting and recharge times, and then have exhaustion increase them the higher it gets?

This way, you would have to trade; spam your powerful stuff for a spike, but then tone down a bit or else you get too easy to interrupt or blackout your bar. (If so, exhaustion would need to take less time, say 10s instead of 30s for each spell; it would still be time enough to slow down the ele for a bit).

Need an urgent ward + some movement KD? Considering both would cause exhaustion and be stronger than they currently are because of that, you would cast them. But then you would want to tone down the frequency of your spell casting, should the team need you to spike assist not much later on, and you wouldn't want your 1s cast time spike spells to be turned into 2s cast time because of excessive exhaustion.

zwei2stein · Aug 31, 2011, 12:52 PM // 12:52

I still prefer old model of decreasing energy cap.

It does not punish you untill you start abusing short recharges. It is resource management, not yet another buff/debuff.

Lack of immediate reprecutions allows skillfull use - something that ideas here lack as they are starting to punish player the very first time he uses exhausting skill which means that skillfull use would be to simply ignore all skills with exhaustion unless they are way off power scale.

(Yes, I have platonic relationship with exhaustion.)

Bristlebane · Aug 31, 2011, 12:54 PM // 12:54

How do heroes handle exhaustion skills? Do they spam it mindlessly or are they more conservative with those once they got exhaustion?

jazilla · Aug 31, 2011, 02:24 PM // 14:24

so i can be looking forward to these ele changes after gw2 gets released? i say this because we were told AGES ago that paragon changes were happening. now i see that the para changes are buried below the ele and ranger changes. don't get me wrong, as an ele main i am thrilled(my only dedicated pvp slot is a ranger so i am thrilled about this too). I am bummed though that the para is not getting the love it was promised first.

AndrewSX · Aug 31, 2011, 02:42 PM // 14:42

I'm worried too for the timeline of those changes..remember how long took the Derv one?

I hope that they've already sketched what they want to do for Eles and maybe Rangers. Or we won't really see this stuff before GW2 release, lol.

urania · Aug 31, 2011, 02:59 PM // 14:59

GW2 won't be coming out that soon.

Xiaquin · Aug 31, 2011, 03:04 PM // 15:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plutoman

A monk is stuck as a healer, or a healer. A smiting monk can be good at times, but they don't want people stuck in the roles of a healer, in the triumvirate of healer/tank/damage.

I agree SP could use an overhaul, but armor-ignoring AoE and a bevy of support skills (which deal damage) is hardly being "stuck as a healer". I'm fine with the idea of an update, but it belongs at the bottom of the list of professions that are on life support.

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuckles79

Ranger changes; Shouldn't need a whole lot.

They're as "past due" as the elementalist. Many give up the bow except for pulling. Let's not even get into pets, traps and overall embarrassing balance that makes PvE feel like PvP.

Reformed · Aug 31, 2011, 04:29 PM // 16:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bristlebane

How do heroes handle exhaustion skills? Do they spam it mindlessly or are they more conservative with those once they got exhaustion?

Depends on scenario. If you are running Invokers and they lose their enchants, they will happily spam until the whole bar is gray.

Lishy · Sep 04, 2011, 05:09 PM // 17:09

In my opinion they should stop making Smiting armor ignoring and give it its own unique mechanic.

My proposal? Anti-necromancer. All necromancers can take more damage against Holy. There for, although smiting will not be as powerful as elementalist magic, it will have the niche of countering the much-overpowered necromancers. It would be interesting in PvP, and a great addition in PvE to slightly nerf MMs indirectly (Come on, they're more OP than SY!), and to easily rid of pesky targets.

But eh, I aint know what they really have in store. *shrug*

instanceskiller · Sep 04, 2011, 05:21 PM // 17:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lishy

In my opinion they should stop making Smiting armor ignoring and give it its own unique mechanic.

My proposal? Anti-necromancer. All necromancers can take more damage against Holy. There for, although smiting will not be as powerful as elementalist magic, it will have the niche of countering the much-overpowered necromancers. It would be interesting in PvP, and a great addition in PvE to slightly nerf MMs indirectly (Come on, they're more OP than SY!), and to easily rid of pesky targets.

But eh, I aint know what they really have in store. *shrug*

Not quite sure if I like the change you proposed or not, but I doubt Anet would touch it too much as the armor ignoring damage of monks smiting prayers as it is mentioned in the guild wars manuscripts:
"Smiting Prayers, on the other hand, call down divine anger on enemies, exacting holy damage that ignores armor"

Saying that, Robert Gee did say on wiki;
"we are also considering toning down the power of the armor-ignoring damage as well", so perhaps they may touch it slightly, yes, but making it non-armor ignoring I still doubt.

X monkey boy X · Sep 04, 2011, 05:32 PM // 17:32

I hope they don't nerf Er as a feel that it would effectivly remove what's left of eles from high end pve play making uwsc impossible for pugs and would make it much harder for people learning, this would anger the sc guilds which is basicly what's left in pve.

DiogoSilva · Sep 04, 2011, 06:50 PM // 18:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by X monkey boy X

I hope they don't nerf Er as a feel that it would effectivly remove what's left of eles from high end pve play

The point of this update is probably to make eles viable for pve again, so they can nerf ER all they want as long as the other changes are worth it.

AndrewSX · Sep 04, 2011, 08:15 PM // 20:15

Above 2 posts are both right... ER is a delicate point.

Nerfing or touching it making E/Mo bonders/protters disappear would be a very hard hit for high end pve(used in dungeons more than once), and some Sc's too (Uwsc/Doasc in particular).

On the other hand, if armor-ignoring dmg is going to be toned down while Ele's output gets pumped a bit, is still possible to see them take place as new spikers.

Btw, nothing can be discussed at this state of the update, where it is just an anticipation of future plans with a single (rarely used) elite.

P.S: the discussion occur on some others Ele's spells, mostly the ones from Earth magic used to tank...their real use outside Sc's is nearly 0, but i don't think Anet will really change them...not when nowadays PvE is almost reduced to Sc.