Curse

makosi · Nov 18, 2011, 08:31 AM // 08:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by StormDragonZ

You didn't answer my question. I asked where the Ettins appear NOW. I knew about the portal situation as it did happen once for me on my Necromancer, but if they moved them somewhere else, where are they NOW?

Gee, sorry. I'll go sit in a corner. The update had just went live and I was predicting the mob that I thought had been moved for those who might be baffled why the devs would alter a mob of ettins 6.5 years after putting them there.

Mintha Syl · Nov 18, 2011, 09:15 AM // 09:15

Yay for Carlotta, it's always been so silly that you had to follow her from far not to kill her, or watch the path on wiki/do it by heart instead of atually doing as the quest required. I love that cutie!

Coast · Nov 18, 2011, 09:56 AM // 09:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darmikau

You forgot Incoming

and angelic bond+ some more motivation skills

vader · Nov 18, 2011, 01:51 PM // 13:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by makosi

Gee, sorry. I'll go sit in a corner. The update had just went live and I was predicting the mob that I thought had been moved for those who might be baffled why the devs would alter a mob of ettins 6.5 years after putting them there.

I would guess that since so many people are working on their HOM, they were starting to get too many complaints about people not being able to vanquish Deldrimor Bowl because the Ettin group was disappearing.

AndrewSX · Nov 18, 2011, 01:59 PM // 13:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by vader

I would guess that since so many people are working on their HOM, they were starting to get too many complaints about people not being able to vanquish Deldrimor Bowl because the Ettin group was disappearing.

Possible. Strange then that they haven't fixed Thalus Chute too, a patrol can walk in Icedome if i remember correctly...and after 400+ mobs is kinda annoying.

Fluffy Kittens · Nov 18, 2011, 02:15 PM // 14:15

Paragons were useless in PvP before this "buff" and they're still equally useless.

chuckles79 · Nov 18, 2011, 09:59 PM // 21:59

The fix was to take the heat off of PvE paragons in 4 man areas. Paras are usually the last to be picked on a ZM in a 4 person area. Of course that's because most paras can't run anything but imbagon and non paras don't know any paras other than imbagons.

Kunder · Nov 19, 2011, 12:01 AM // 00:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuckles79

The fix was to take the heat off of PvE paragons in 4 man areas. Paras are usually the last to be picked on a ZM in a 4 person area. Of course that's because most paras can't run anything but imbagon and non paras don't know any paras other than imbagons.

Sorry, but there are no paragon builds other than imbagon. Motivation is horrible, Command is for imbagons who want to be worse at protecting the party. The only skill that can possibly contend with SY is ToF, which requires a very specific party setup and can be run on a imbagon build anyways. And imbagon worked just fine in 4 person areas anyways, so this update really does nothing at all in almost all situations until SY is nerfed.

Reverend Dr · Nov 19, 2011, 02:41 AM // 02:41

A 4 paragon mid/backline in a physical heavy build is still pretty damn strong in PvE. But the PvE meta is take a bunch of individually strong builds and throw them together, rather than take a team build that synergizes well, which is the niche paragons fill.

MithranArkanere · Nov 19, 2011, 03:43 AM // 03:43

The old grumpy nitpicker man living inside me me loves the Jarrel and Carlotta changes.
More than 6 years complaining about those finally over.

Now.... I wonder if they'll fix also the other model inconsistencies, like Orion looking like Howland the Elementalist in pre-Searing.

I may take my paragon again to see how it works now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apok

Oh god, why buff paragons that way? Wasn't their e-management the one thing they nerfed back in nightfall?

The energy limit in Leadership is still there. Not it's just capped at 4 allies instead at 8 allies, but they get with 4 allies the same energy they'll get with 8 allies before.
They just need less allies to get the same energy, but still can't get more than a certain amount per shout or chant.
Several paragon skills that benefit from nearby allies are capped at 4 allies too so this change is also more consistent with those skills.

The only real change is that paragons suck now a bit less in areas with party size of 4, such as RA, Codex, Training Arenas and the first areas in Istan.

The may problem I have with paragons comes from their shouts and chants affecting all allies or all party members and their triggering conditions being too specific and non-versatile.
That makes their skills affect 0...all party members, or 0...all allies.
How do you balance something to be good when it may affect nobody and everybody? You just can't, for the same reason you can't divide by 0 with elementary arithmetic.

If you increase the numbers, they become too strong with many allies. If you decrease them, they become too weak with few allies.
If you go all fighters or all casters, you can bring high synergy for the party. If you go mixed, they suck like hell..
So with pugs you are forced to go Imbagon, and in RA well, you are lucky if they don't report you for leeching as soon as they see you are a paragon.

To fix that, first, you limit the effect to a number of allies.
Just like a mix between the Angelic Bond 'once per party' effect and the ritualist weapon spell trigerring counters.
After X uses by different allies, the effect would disappear from the rest of allies.
Then, you remove the highly conditional effects that make their skills either good for fighters or casters, but rarely both, to bring synergy with all professions.

For example, from this:
Chant. (10 seconds.) Party members in earshot gain 30...78...90 Health with their next spell.

To this:
Chant. (10 seconds.) The next 1...2...3 times a party member within earshot casts a spell or uses an attack skill, they gain 30...78...90 Health, and Aria of Restoration ends on all other allies.

There may be a better way to note it, though. But the point is:
- All party members get the effect.
- Each one can trigger the effect once.
- Affects both spells and attack skills to maximize how many party members can benefit from it.
- After 1...2...3 of them activates the effect, the rest lose it.
That way. 1...2...3 people may get the effect. Not 0...all.

Kunder · Nov 19, 2011, 04:05 AM // 04:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

The may problem I have with paragons comes from their shouts and chants affecting all allies or all party members and their triggering conditions being too specific and non-versatile.
That makes their skills affect 0...all party members, or 0...all allies.
How do you balance something to be good when it may affect nobody and everybody? You just can't, for the same reason you can't divide by 0 with elementary arithmetic.

If you increase the numbers, they become too strong with many allies. If you decrease them, they become too weak with few allies.
If you go all fighters or all casters, you can bring high synergy for the party. If you go mixed, they suck like hell..
So with pugs you are forced to go Imbagon, and in RA well, you are lucky if they don't report you for leeching as soon as they see you are a paragon.

To fix that, first, you limit the effect to a number of allies.
Just like a mix between the Angelic Bond 'once per party' effect and the ritualist weapon spell trigerring counters.
After X uses by different allies, the effect would disappear from the rest of allies.
Then, you remove the highly conditional effects that make their skills either good for fighters or casters, but rarely both, to bring synergy with all professions.

For example, from this:
Chant. (10 seconds.) Party members in earshot gain 30...78...90 Health with their next spell.

To this:
Chant. (10 seconds.) The next 1...2...3 times a party member within earshot casts a spell or uses an attack skill, they gain 30...78...90 Health, and Aria of Restoration ends on all other allies.

There may be a better way to note it, though. But the point is:
- All party members get the effect.
- Each one can trigger the effect once.
- Affects both spells and attack skills to maximize how many party members can benefit from it.
- After 1...2...3 of them activates the effect, the rest lose it.
That way. 1...2...3 people may get the effect. Not 0...all.

Your example leaves MUCH to be desired. Completely random, untargetted healing is horrible. What happens when you cast it and 3 people at 599/600 health get the effect? That makes me cry just thinking about it. Or do you stop the entire team's attacking/casting while the weakened players get a spell off to get a very minor healing effect? Sorry, just won't work.

If you re-wrote it to be "The next 1...2...3 times a party member with the 1...2...3rd lowest or less health within earshot casts a spell or uses an attack skill, they gain 30...78...90 Health, and Aria of Restoration ends on all other allies.", it might work out OK. That sounds like it might not even be possible to do, not sure on how far you can go with GW skills. Certainly a lot of other shouts have an even harder time fitting into this paradigm.

The Drunkard · Nov 19, 2011, 04:06 AM // 04:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

The may problem I have with paragons comes from their shouts and chants affecting all allies or all party members and their triggering conditions being too specific and non-versatile.
That makes their skills affect 0...all party members, or 0...all allies.
How do you balance something to be good when it may affect nobody and everybody? You just can't, for the same reason you can't divide by 0 with elementary arithmetic.

Would something like changing a few of the paragon shouts to be similar to the Urn of Saint Victor's effect be a "middle ground?" You could have abilities that heavily impact a single person, or impact the group in a minor manor.

For Example: (I know it's a warrior shout, bite me)

"Save Yourselves!"

Allies within earshot gain +80 armor. Reduce maximum armor bonus by 10 for each ally within earshot.

This would make the paragon focus more about positioning than just sitting down as a turret.

Avatar of Me · Nov 19, 2011, 04:34 AM // 04:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Drunkard

Would something like changing a few of the paragon shouts to be similar to the Urn of Saint Victor's effect be a "middle ground?" You could have abilities that heavily impact a single person, or impact the group in a minor manor.

For Example: (I know it's a warrior shout, bite me)

"Save Yourselves!"

Allies within earshot gain +80 armor. Reduce maximum armor bonus by 10 for each ally within earshot.

This would make the paragon focus more about positioning than just sitting down as a turret.

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you mean party members, rather than allies. If I'm reading your skill correctly, if all eight party members were within earshot, they would each only gain ten armor? Seems like it would be more effective to just spam "Watch Yourself!" instead.

The problem with "fixing" paragons, is that shouts are either grossly overpowered, or terribly underpowered. When it comes to instant cast, irremovable buffs, there really is no middle ground. (If there is, I must be too blind to see it)

MithranArkanere · Nov 19, 2011, 03:46 PM // 15:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Drunkard

Would something like changing a few of the paragon shouts to be similar to the Urn of Saint Victor's effect be a "middle ground?" You could have abilities that heavily impact a single person, or impact the group in a minor manor.

For Example: (I know it's a warrior shout, bite me)

"Save Yourselves!"

Allies within earshot gain +80 armor. Reduce maximum armor bonus by 10 for each ally within earshot.

This would make the paragon focus more about positioning than just sitting down as a turret.

Yep. That's even better. Skills that 'balance themselves'. Like the ritualist spirits that lose health when the effect triggers.
The more people benefiting from the effect, the less it lasts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

[...]

Well, that was a quick and dirty bad example of something easier to balance that a skill that affects a range of people from 'none' to 'all' on the spot. It takes way more than that to come up with something decent.

Hm... from the previous post, It comes to my mind that It could be even better if the effect had a 'pool' of health.
You know, you 'chant', and the chant generates a a pool of 100...300...400 HP.
Someone that had full health won't trigger the effect. Someone that had 40 points of current health under their maximum would take just 400HP.
Each time a party member triggers the effect they are healed up to a max from that 'pool', and when the 'pool' is consumed, all lose the effect.

Yep. That could be even easier to balance.

KotCR · Nov 20, 2011, 03:23 PM // 15:23

A pool of health should technically be possible too, seems I guess it wouldn't be too dissimiliar to the way the old Life Sheath used to work. Though at the same time, bear in mind that skill never saw much play, either.

I'm not sure there's any need to remove Finales (infact Echos could do with an icon on healthbars in the same way enchantments and weapon spells get one). I think it's an interesting mechanic and it works fine, just in one or two cases the effects need to be a bit more passive, if multiple triggering from shouts is supposedly the issue. Even then, it's really only Finale of Restoration that should be an issue.

The effects off Purifying Finale, Energizing Finale, and Blazing Finale aren't quite powerful enough to be worth worrying about compared to what else is on offer in other professions that fills a similiar purpose, unless while in teams of multiple Paragons (and then, Energizing Finale would be a wasted skill slot anyway because if the entire team is Paragons nobody is going to need all that energy anyway because everybody would have Leadership).

Finale of Restoration just needs to heal a bit slower and less stackably, so instead of:
Echo. (10...30...35 seconds.) Target ally gains 15...63...75 Health the next 5 times a shout or chant ends on that ally. Cannot target spirits.

It could be something like.
Echo. (10...30...35 seconds.) Every time a shout or chant ends on target ally, that ally gains 5...17...20 Health with their next 1...2...3 attacks or spells. Cannot target spirits.

The healing would be enough to warrant the skill slot usage, but would not benefit multiple shout spam as using another shout before the the last three charges were used up would not increase the overall healing gain.

And yes it's unremovable, but so what? The effect is the same as Vigorous Spirit, which maybe be a removable enchantment but costs a measly 5e and is on a 4s recharge (so is easily replaced if removed anyway). Vigorous Spirit has the benefit of not needing to pump out a shout every 6 seconds or so to keep the affect going, whereas a Finale of Restoration like that would have the benefit of not fueling Shatter Enchantment damage.

As for Chants, with the exception of Defensive Anthem, once again the unremovability isn't an issue either as they don't provide on-going benefits and have a cast time. They all do something once, then end. That's the equivalent of a spell doing something instantly after the cast time and then being done...which is most spells in the game and that's not considered overpowered. Ballad of Restoration for example is basically an unreliable version of Divine Healing on a slower recharge.

The only issues with Chants is that they triggered Echos. Of which the only one that was truly problematic really was Finale of Restoration (Turning a party-wide 75 heal - which is rather reasonable - into a 150 heal), which would be solved with the above change.
Otherwise, the Chants are all rather weak in general and most could do with a buff.

So the only thing that really needs thinking about is indeed Shouts, that do tend to provide ongoing unremovable benefits (like extra armour, healing and/or speed), and don't have the same hindrances in activation that Chants do either.

Rod Adams · Nov 21, 2011, 09:55 PM // 21:55

IMO, one of the worst parts of being a Para in PvE is that since they are oh so heavy into shouts, you get into an all or nothing game when it comes to counters.
- Most areas of the game, there's nothing stopping you from buffing non-stop, in unstrippable ways.
- And then you come up to a mob with a few casters with Vocal Minority, and you're basically flat out screwed. There's no way to remove the hex without another profession, the mobs can generally reapply it in a heartbeat, and while it's on, you're just sitting there tossing your spear without any buffs or energy management.

This becomes even more compounded if you're taking a team of paras, since VM is AoE... you're basically all or nothing.
I'm unaware of any other skill that basically nullifies an entire profession.
Blindness on melee or dazed on casters is bad, but it's not a complete shutdown, generally have shorter duration, are harder to make AoE, and conditions are generally easier to remove than hexes.

KotCR · Nov 22, 2011, 10:06 PM // 22:06

Yeah Vocal Minority is horrendously overpowered; But also so specific in its uses that nobody wants to use it. It's about as badly designed as a skill can be - it will win the game for you against Paragons, and is an utterly wasted slot against anything else.

Needs to be scrapped and redone, or just be more particular like "the next 1...2 shouts used fail" with a side effect like adding a condition or doing some damage. Maybe make it cheap or on a fast recharge so it can double up as a reasonable cover hex for other things too.

Mercury Angel · Nov 22, 2011, 10:39 PM // 22:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apok

Oh god, why buff paragons that way? Wasn't their e-management the one thing they nerfed back in nightfall?

Leadership never changed from its Beta incarnation. Leadership's only real nerfs were indirect, via "Watch Yourself!" and "Go for the Eyes!" gaining recharge times.

You might be thinking of Dervishes, whose Mysticism used to grant 2 health and .5 energy per rank during the Beta event, reduced to 1 and .333 on release.

Missing HB · Nov 23, 2011, 10:26 AM // 10:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rezz Anna Nicole

Paragons were useless in PvP before this "buff" and they're still equally useless.

Indeed... The old " zergway" nerf damaged a lot of skills and the fact that a ranger or warrior can pump more damages than a paragon has still a big negative impact...

Not considering the fact that not nerfing at all the current meta wouldn't do anything even if the paragon had had a better buff... Taking El/N with aphony would probably be done by many...

Reverend Dr · Nov 23, 2011, 04:21 PM // 16:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by KotCR

Yeah Vocal Minority is horrendously overpowered; But also so specific in its uses that nobody wants to use it. It's about as badly designed as a skill can be - it will win the game for you against Paragons, and is an utterly wasted slot against anything else.

Vocal minority really isn't as overpowered as one would think when used against a paragon heavy build.

That being said, it is still a piss poor designed skill as it is a direct counter, which is not something the game ever needs.