Curse

Lanier · Dec 14, 2011, 05:25 AM // 05:25

lol... necromancers are one of the most powerful classes in the game. I certainly don't see how they need "fixing".

Martin Alvito · Dec 14, 2011, 05:27 AM // 05:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

#3 and #4 are both going to become less likely to be true in the face of a large monster hp buff. To the extent that the problem is degen not getting a chance to run its course (#4), or giving it a chance to run its course is a stupid voluntary decision (#3), this update will go a long ways towards fixing degen.

That depends entirely upon the magnitudes of the HP buff and the armor debuff. Your claim will only be true if the former is very large and the latter is very small.

If the HP buff is relatively small when compared to the armor debuff, degen will become worse because damage will become more efficient and remain sufficient to produce rapid kills.

Chthon · Dec 14, 2011, 06:04 AM // 06:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

#1 Your reasoning is false because...

You cited #2 to argue against #1. I concede #2. But I don't think that (a) it's the only reason degen sucks right now, or (b) so predominant that it negates the impact of taking away #3 and #4. Now, degen may still suck after this update (in fact, I think it's likely to still suck after this update), but I suspect that it's going to suck less badly than before.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

That depends entirely upon the magnitudes of the HP buff and the armor debuff. Your claim will only be true if the former is very large and the latter is very small.

If the HP buff is relatively small when compared to the armor debuff, degen will become worse because damage will become more efficient and remain sufficient to produce rapid kills.

You're correct. We have no idea what the magnitude of the hp buff will be. In my mind, I've been mostly assuming a hp buff that exactly offsets the armor nerf in terms of the raw, pre-armor damage it takes to kill a target from full hp. (Which I think should occur at ~(0.34*Lvl + 0.34)hp for each point of armor lost.) If the monsters get less hp than that, the game is made globally easier for anyone using armor-respecting damage, and degen becomes even worse than it is now for precisely the reasons you described. If the monsters get more hp than that, then the game is made globally harder, and degen becomes somewhat better (though perhaps still objectively bad) as I described above.

AndrewSX · Dec 14, 2011, 08:09 AM // 08:09

Eles deserved a fix because they need it since HM introduction.
With heroes and cons HM now is easy enough to be done w/o any skill in your bar, so stuff like "I've VQ all areas with my ele, no prob/Use Cracked armor you noobs" doesn't work, sorry.
But when you see Rogdort invocation dealing 35 dmg instead 108, unless you're blind or a troll everyone should understand that something is wrong with the class that should be "Master of caster dmg".
HM changes serves this purpose. Skill changes instead are oriented to give ele something more that plain dmg with ridicoulous bar expansion (3-4 skill for ene, 1 utility and...3 dmg? if you're lucky) rather than compression, more party support outside underpowered wards and emo gimmick, more utility, better elites in general. Not more dmg on his own.

Those changes will lead to more durable mobs, sure, but that's just what we need to have a HM "Hard". And having mobs last 2-3 secs more shouldn't screw PvE tbh.
(Degen has become useless from ages, increasing mob's hp doesn't mean anything: nobody uses it now, nobody will later. That's all.)

About next prof in line, thinking about what anet said some time ago, i'd guess moti(non.imba) para, rangers (overhaul) and smiters - in this oreder. All PvE side mostly.
If GW2 hasn't come out for that time, then they could think about making necros a bit more entertaining to play(cuz now they're powerful, but most of times quite boring), but not before that time.

Chris616263 · Dec 14, 2011, 07:39 PM // 19:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regina Buenaobra

P.S. - Hope you enjoyed the preview.

Nerfing Mesmers to make Eles better in HM, and then randomly nerfing Rits.

I enjoy that about as much as I enjoy a trip to the dentist.

Xsiriss · Dec 14, 2011, 09:16 PM // 21:16

This arguing is ridiculous. We KNOW that a few things will happen and that's all that matters: Armour relative damage is made more effective (obviously we don't know by how much), armour ignoring damage and degen will be made less effective (again we don't know by how much). That's it.

As a few side notes: Necros suck beyond their meta niches, blood and curses are useless on their own and provide mediocre support. Rangers are stale and have been left behind, especially after all those PvP oriented nerfs that heavily impacted on their PvE play (remember the days of sundering/penetrating shot spam?). PvE skills are a controversial area, HM isn't easy because of them but then again seeing as many mobs are given OP monster skills and have insane attributes it helps create a more even playing field. The problem is that HM wasn't really designed intelligently but rather just the 'buff everything up and make them kite quicker'.

roachsrealm · Dec 14, 2011, 10:05 PM // 22:05

Necromancers do not need an update. I can regularly do packets of 100+ and 80+ damage in groups of 3 or 4 all at once every 5-7 seconds. These trigger upon mod death, the same time I get my almost 20 energy since I can boost my attributes to near HM Boss levels *without* cons, and still have 3 slots open on my skill bar not reserved for energy management. I haven't met an Ele that can do that without chaining endless meteor showers with an elite not even from their own profession.

And this all pales compared to how much damage I've seen a Dom Mesmer with e-surge, e burn and aneurysm fares. They felt cheated after the Intensity change, and they STILL do more damage.

Ele's have needed this for a long time. Now all casters can do damage without having to look at a green or purple bar.

Wenspire · Dec 14, 2011, 10:05 PM // 22:05

Considering the current state of the game, I'd rather call certain classes "overpowered" and a few "underpowered" when it comes to their decision in changing things. If they just buffed the underpowered classes, the game would get even more unbalanced.

That being said, I think their decision to lower armor levels and increase life is the better choice compared to what could have been done otherwise.

Lanier · Dec 14, 2011, 10:22 PM // 22:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xsiriss

As a few side notes: Necros suck beyond their meta niches, blood and curses are useless on their own and provide mediocre support.

lol... I can't believe people are even trying to say that necros need an update or that they are bad. I mean... the only weak thing about them in PvE is blood magic's life stealing skills. Curses has the most powerful support skills in the game with stuff like enfeebling blood, weaken armor, shadow of fear, barbs, etc. Even though the reactive hexes have been overshadowed by powercreep, they are still capable of causing large amounts of damage in a short period of time. In fact, I would go as far as to say that curses is the single most powerful attribute in the game (though I guess an arguement could be made for channeling to hold that title as well).

Then, we have minions. In pve, minions are rediculously OP, and probably the one hero that I would never leave out of my party in an area with corpses in my minion bomber. Minion bombers and OoU minion masters can produce a lot of damage and soak up a lot of incoming damage.

And of course, there is also all of those melee support skills. OoP, OoV, Dark Fury, blood bond, mark of fury, barbs, MoP, etc. You can't tell me these are weak spells. BiP and blood rit are also very useful caster support skills.

Honestly, necromancers are probably the second most powerful class in PvE after rits. I would even place them above mesmers, who's support options pale in comparison to those available to the rit or the necromancer. OP energy management + OP support skills = an OP profession. I feel like whenever someone says that necromancers need an update, they are just saying that b/c necromancers have not recieved one recently. Skill balance should be about balancing professions, not making them fresh, or adding new stuff for the sake of adding new stuff.

gw_poster · Dec 14, 2011, 10:28 PM // 22:28

Wow, I can see whole ele teams chaining these insane 'doublecast' skills. They are like mini paras now with localized party protection but with the bonus of added damage and condition infliction. Gg

And why f with SoS???

HigherMinion · Dec 14, 2011, 11:44 PM // 23:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xsiriss

As a few side notes: Necros suck and curses are useless on their own

Do you need reminding that this is a team game?

Kunder · Dec 15, 2011, 12:15 AM // 00:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

Do you need reminding that this is a team game?

Breaking news! Solo Heal/Prot monks deal even less damage than a solo Curse Necromancer, confirmed to be worst class in the game

Swingline · Dec 15, 2011, 02:57 AM // 02:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris616263

Nerfing Mesmers to make Eles better in HM, and then randomly nerfing Rits.

Mistrust dealt 142 damage and Searing Flames did 34 damage in HM. See a problem? When the game first started Eles were the main nukers of the game, not Mesmers and Rits. So this small skill nerf is in order with the blanket HM armor loss/hp increase.

@Xsiriss

PoD, SS, FoC, Defile/Desecrate Enchantments and Enfeebling Blood(reduces melee damage by 66%) all stand great on their own. Then theres Barbs, MoP, etc that support other party members. Even the single target skills are good but are overshadowed by the AoE curse skills and people don't want to sit and spread them when they have 50 other mob groups to kill for the VQ. I don't see why you have a problem with necros.

Also HM has better AI than NM. Higher levels and attributes were not the only thing they gave the mobs

Jeydra · Dec 15, 2011, 04:17 AM // 04:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swingline

Mistrust dealt 142 damage and Searing Flames did 34 damage in HM. See a problem? When the game first started Eles were the main nukers of the game, not Mesmers and Rits. So this small skill nerf is in order with the blanket HM armor loss/hp increase.

@Xsiriss

PoD, SS, FoC, Defile/Desecrate Enchantments and Enfeebling Blood(reduces melee damage by 66%) all stand great on their own. Then theres Barbs, MoP, etc that support other party members. Even the single target skills are good but are overshadowed by the AoE curse skills and people don't want to sit and spread them when they have 50 other mob groups to kill for the VQ. I don't see why you have a problem with necros.

Also HM has better AI than NM. Higher levels and attributes were not the only thing they gave the mobs

Unless you are trying to hit Burning Spirits or something with Searing Flames (when I'd call you an idiot), you do not deal 34 damage per cast -_-;;

Incidentally Enfeebling Blood and Shadow of Fear (and Spiteful Spirit) are all weak skills. No comment on Necros beyond that.

Swingline · Dec 15, 2011, 06:31 AM // 06:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Unless you are trying to hit Burning Spirits or something with Searing Flames (when I'd call you an idiot), you do not deal 34 damage per cast -_-;;

I was not saying Searing Flames does 34 damage across the board. That would be ludicrous. Armor scales in HM and in some cases a 16 fire magic Searing Flames can be reduced to that much while Mistrust will still deal 142 damage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Incidentally Enfeebling Blood and Shadow of Fear (and Spiteful Spirit) are all weak skills. No comment on Necros beyond that.

EB and SS are not weak skills, they are just not surging with retarded OPness.

Jeydra · Dec 15, 2011, 10:04 AM // 10:04

And there are some cases where a 16 Fire Magic Searing Flames does the full 106 damage without team support (i.e. no Cracked Armour and no EBSoH). What's your point?

Don't quote 34 damage as though it's representative. It isn't, just like 106 damage isn't representative. Searing Flames damage is generally much closer to 60-70 iirc, which is still a full 100% increase over your "34 damage".

Quote:

EB and SS are not weak skills, they are just not surging with retarded OPness.

Second Wind is not a weak elite, it's just not surging with retarded OPness.

Your sentence is so vague as to be useless ~_~

Elnino · Dec 15, 2011, 11:14 AM // 11:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

And there are some cases where a 16 Fire Magic Searing Flames does the full 106 damage without team support (i.e. no Cracked Armour and no EBSoH). What's your point?

His point is that in every case, mistrust still does 142 damage. Whereas, searing flames only does full damage in some cases. Which is a problem that'll be solved once the update hits so idk why we're still talking about it. ^^

Jeydra · Dec 15, 2011, 11:37 AM // 11:37

Yes - but it doesn't deal 34 damage. That is blatant exaggeration and obscures the differences, viz. if Searing Flames got buffed to deal 1060 damage per hit, it is going to be hugely overpowered even though it still "only does full damage in some cases".

If Swingline wants to argue that Searing Flames / Elementalist damage in general is underpowered, he ought to do it fairly.

HigherMinion · Dec 15, 2011, 12:29 PM // 12:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

If Swingline wants to argue that Searing Flames / Elementalist damage in general is underpowered, he ought to do it fairly.

Mistrust deals 140dmg vs Destroyers whilst Searing Flames does 0! Tadah!

Amy Awien · Dec 15, 2011, 04:01 PM // 16:01

Lol

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Incidentally Enfeebling Blood and Shadow of Fear (and Spiteful Spirit) are all weak skills.

Just to stay on the side track, Enfeebling Blood reduces enemy melee to powerless meatbags - nothing weak about that.