Curse

Martin Alvito · Dec 28, 2011, 07:27 PM // 19:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Missing HB

About snowball At's, i think that there would be the same amount of players, whatever the reward was, because it will still be free rewards for those people...

The reason the PvE-ers are around is because the rewards outstrip what they could collect playing PvE. You'd still have the serious guilds that just want to play, as well as the afk guilds. It's the mediocre competition in the middle that would disappear.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

As long as they are sat at the keyboard and pressing keys, I have no issue with macros (I dont use macros as I can play well without them, but others can if they want to).

The issue is that the keyboard will straight outperform anything a real human can do by legitimately pressing keys. Are you also arguing that they should be allowed to run drop-and-dodge bots and the like? Both produce results that a legitimate player cannot reproduce, and both are therefore cheating given the context of zero-sum PvP.

Macros are fine if they enable sloth; it's when they enable clearly superior play that they cross the line.

Quote:

Originally Posted by drkn

I'd suggest using fraps every time you enter the SAT, and if you record any illegal activity, submit it to ANet via their official support forum. If they get enough complaints, i'm sure they'll let the banhammer out and/or fix some stuff.

It's been a problem for years, people have been very vocal, and they still haven't done anything about it.

They've banned for this sort of thing in the past IIRC, but there will never be an official statement because that would imply responsibility to solve the problem.

Quote:

Originally Posted by drkn

exploiting the system for outright rewards - is quite serious, even though it's 'only a game'.

Everything players do in PvE exploits systems created by the developer for rewards. There's a clear line between abusing developer idiocy and cheating. Cheating denies other players rewards they would otherwise earn; abuse of systems does not. The semantic problem is that we've conflated things such as duping (which abuse developer idiocy) with cheating in common parlance. (This happened because things like duping have serious effects on wealth that spill over into who owns what.)

What we need is a clear set of rules that tells us how we can and cannot abuse screwed up systems, and a developer that will stand behind those rules. ANet's stance that "common sense" should be the standard is so laughably terrible that I won't demolish it again here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BladeDVD

I don't really PVP and so don't know the rules as well, but isn't this match manipulation and therefore, against the rules?

Debatable. Match manipulation is essentially defined as not making a good faith effort to win. A pure afkway is pretty obviously in violation. They make no effort to win, which is equivalent to throwing the match.

Things get into a gray area once you start talking about teams that have afks but still try to win.

Essence Snow · Dec 29, 2011, 01:44 AM // 01:44

Want to cut down on bots?...Simple remove the rewards! Most of ya'll say you play for the fun of it anyhow. Take the rewards out of PvP and ppl won't have as much of a reason to bot it.

Yet, I doubt many will agree with this b/c they non-vocally play for the rewards.

Polgara Val · Dec 29, 2011, 02:47 AM // 02:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Essence Snow

Want to cut down on bots?...Simple remove the rewards! Most of ya'll say you play for the fun of it anyhow. Take the rewards out of PvP and ppl won't have as much of a reason to bot it.

Yet, I doubt many will agree with this b/c they non-vocally play for the rewards.

Bots are obviously an issue, however removing the rewards and playing for "fun" would make it almost a non entity event for most people. Clearly most people play for it for the rewards and for the challenge in some cases.

Regardless its been like this for years from what I have seen, not much we can do about it since im sure Anet knows what the issues are and its up to them to rectify it.

Pol

*lemming* · Dec 29, 2011, 03:15 AM // 03:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Essence Snow

Want to cut down on bots?...Simple remove the rewards! Most of ya'll say you play for the fun of it anyhow. Take the rewards out of PvP and ppl won't have as much of a reason to bot it.

Yet, I doubt many will agree with this b/c they non-vocally play for the rewards.

Aren't you usually in favor of increasing rewards as a way for promoting activity?

Just to make it clear, I'm not disagreeing - I feel like the disproportionate rewards are taken advantage far more by those exploiting than by the casual audience that is theoretically supposed to be attracted by them.

Ariena Najea · Dec 29, 2011, 04:26 AM // 04:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

Aren't you usually in favor of increasing rewards as a way for promoting activity?

Just to make it clear, I'm not disagreeing - I feel like the disproportionate rewards are taken advantage far more by those exploiting than by the casual audience that is theoretically supposed to be attracted by them.

The current rewards are definitely far higher than they deserve to be. I would rather they be lowered so that farmers can profit better from the typical event farms (Raptors, Vaettir, PvE Snowball Thing) and would thus generally go there.

Essence Snow · Dec 29, 2011, 04:36 AM // 04:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

Aren't you usually in favor of increasing rewards as a way for promoting activity?

Just to make it clear, I'm not disagreeing - I feel like the disproportionate rewards are taken advantage far more by those exploiting than by the casual audience that is theoretically supposed to be attracted by them.

It's a "Catch 22". Yes I am for increased rewards in reg PvP, but it'll increase bad things such as bots/smurfing/etc. I am not for severly increased reward for tournies....like the ones we have now.

I agree with Ariena...keep the higher rewards in PvE where the bots don't interfere with the players as much.

Missing HB · Dec 29, 2011, 09:00 AM // 09:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Essence Snow

It's a "Catch 22". Yes I am for increased rewards in reg PvP, but it'll increase bad things such as bots/smurfing/etc. I am not for severly increased reward for tournies....like the ones we have now.

I agree with Ariena...keep the higher rewards in PvE where the bots don't interfere with the players as much.

That's probably the best idea, but it still leads to an infinite circle.. Make better rewards in PvE and people will go bot there, thus PvP is going to lack players, thus normal PvP'ers won't be able to get a match and the place will be inactive, thus people will come to sync for free titles, etc.. leading to the same situation as today..

Martin Alvito · Dec 29, 2011, 04:20 PM // 16:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Essence Snow

Want to cut down on bots?...Simple remove the rewards! Most of ya'll say you play for the fun of it anyhow. Take the rewards out of PvP and ppl won't have as much of a reason to bot it.

People have been playing for the rewards since there was e-peen to be gained from the ladder and fame to be had in Tombs. In other words, since the beginning.

One major reason there's such a huge number of afk guilds that hasn't been mentioned is the change from 4 members/14 days to 2 members/7 days for ATs. That permits a lot of additional abuses, some of which increase the returns on afkway and henchway dramatically.

jazilla · Dec 29, 2011, 05:04 PM // 17:04

It's too bad really. These are the reasons I don't do RBR, SB, FA, JQ, or GvG.

Missing HB · Dec 29, 2011, 05:55 PM // 17:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

People have been playing for the rewards since there was e-peen to be gained from the ladder and fame to be had in Tombs. In other words, since the beginning.

One major reason there's such a huge number of afk guilds that hasn't been mentioned is the change from 4 members/14 days to 2 members/7 days for ATs. That permits a lot of additional abuses, some of which increase the returns on afkway and henchway dramatically.

I'm not sure if it would however change anything.. Most of non-playing teams i face are 4 guildies + 4 henchs, but some can be 6-8 afk humans.. Besides, if you consider it's been shown people are syncing Codex alone or HA almost alone, they probably could afford doing an AT alone...Really, earlier i saw some guy was syncing Heroes Ascent( several accounts going and leaving in asian district) and after i won UW some guy faking offline whispered me " hf, i'm raging my map ", and we didn't get any further.. It's about players mentality towards the reward also

Restrictions would today not change anything upon syncers but just annoy some guilds who get a 14 dayers dc, who lack 1 player only , etc....Once again, the problem is only linked to multi launch abuses, i hardly believe someone will find 7 other players willing to just stand and do nothing...

What i however don't get is why those guilds aren't afking GvG At's neither, considering it's still giving some rps( and quite many if you have several accounts..)

Mireles · Dec 29, 2011, 07:19 PM // 19:19

The problem with all PvP in general is that its real problems are being ignored... there is no participation based way to rank your experience.... If Anet rewarded respective title points for completing matches in a way that does not involve resign would be helpful for entry level players to find groups.... But to make it more fun and casual... I think Anet needs to host another community "build a bar contest" where x-number of bars are chosen for each class to have the format have fixed bars to choose from, and only these bars... This would cut down on the knowledge base people would need to have and cut down on some of the time burden of coordinating a team, and put people on more even ground by making it about executing that bar and less about whats on that bar.

This may not feel ideal for some of the people, but i think if pve can be dumbed down and titles made less expensive for the sake of ease and playability... the same needs to be done to pvp if its ever going to be revived. Bots and syncing are not a direct problem, they are the product of lack of interest and participation.... People are not playing snowball AT because there is a automated alternative and people generally have a negative view of any PvP that is team coordinated.... Anet either needs to remove rewards or fix things... its not doing anyone any good to have these open exploits except for the people willing to pay real money to exploit them

coil · Dec 30, 2011, 10:12 PM // 22:12

remove rewards and see the 3 pages dwindle to ~1/2. on the plus side there will be more
gifts/tonics flooding the market since pve'ers will just do that.

how about anet

- tier competition based on team's totaled skill title points. doesn't completely negate smurfing but may help
- limit pickup commands registering at server so bots/macros can't flood the server
- fix the server issue -- if a server can decide which team wins, something is wrong
- monitor the event so you can pick out bots and kill them (in pve as well...)

The Tinman · Dec 30, 2011, 11:44 PM // 23:44

Bots, cheating, leechers, macros...Yes A-net does need to get their act together to improve the character of this game.

Maybe banning accounts every month will clear up a good bit of trash...ever since those 3500 accounts got banned I have not see another announcement( I could be mistaken here but Im pretty sure I 'm not)...sure they might get the one's and two's ..but that's not enough?

Really hope they monitor the game more closely to make it a better environment to play in.

Swingline · Dec 31, 2011, 05:50 AM // 05:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Missmelady

First off Macro's are completly 100% legal to use.

They really shouldn't be because GWs lacks a macro system within the game itself. Most other games have a system in place where a gaming keyboard with special macro buttons is a very small advantage at best. Mostly they are just extra buttons that keep your key bindings more organized. Sadly Anet didn't take the time to create an in game macro system and now you have people using a legal tactic that risk getting banned. They should formally announce that if you want to use macros you risk getting banned.

makosi · Dec 31, 2011, 10:30 AM // 10:30

On paper, macros aren't "100% legal to use". They're third party software and provide an in-game advantage.

Then again, when there's nobody to enforce the rules, anything goes.

Missing HB · Dec 31, 2011, 02:52 PM // 14:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by makosi

Then again, when there's nobody to enforce the rules, anything goes.

Exactly... Well, some people would deserve a ban though, as most of bot users are usually in addition trollers or bad talkers... Abusers attitude( whether it's words or things like " we lost to a real team, now hf with restarts, we're raging halls " or people waiting you to stop codex to go sync it again) is intolerable and there should be something in /report for those cases...

Martin Alvito · Dec 31, 2011, 03:15 PM // 15:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by coil

how about anet

- tier competition based on team's totaled skill title points. doesn't completely negate smurfing but may help
- limit pickup commands registering at server so bots/macros can't flood the server
- fix the server issue -- if a server can decide which team wins, something is wrong
- monitor the event so you can pick out bots and kill them (in pve as well...)

A more workable set of suggestions that would actually fix the problems:

- Eliminate item dropping/pickup entirely. Automatically assign the item to the nearest enemy team member legal to pick up (ie: not KD'd/engaged in an action) within range if the carrier is knocked down, or the nearest such team member if no enemies are within range. Leave it on the ground as normal if no one is legal to pick up. That eliminates the macro/pingwars problem.

- Rearrange the awarding of tournament reward points. AFK guilds exploit the fact that a small number of keys are awarded to each team member if the team finishes in the top 32. Forfeit guilds exploit the fact that a sufficiently large number of guilds will divide into multiple groups, increasing everyone's expected key output. So:

- Have one group with a huge cap. Something like 160 teams is about as many as we've seen, even with forfeits and afks.
- Cut to single elimination for the top 16 and only give TRPs for placement to those teams.
- Instead of giving away 5 TRPs per actual (ie: non-forfeit) win, have an escalating number of TRPs that are awarded for each match win. That way, teams that legitimately play still get their TRPs but the afkways get little or no return at all.

We'd still have drop-and-dodge bots once the flux ends, but reworking the drop/pickup system would help. It wouldn't eliminate the problem, but you'd think people would be smart enough to Icicles and then go hold the carrier's hand.

floor · Dec 31, 2011, 03:33 PM // 15:33

Any competent GvG/HA guild who has some idea of general PvP gameplay is able to make top 4 or 8 at least in a snowball AT. Losing out to the select few guilds who are very very good at the format. Some players bot, and a lot of people macro, its fairly obvious. Although its nowhere near as big of an issue as many people make out, for the most part people just complain because they lose. Even though they are pretty clueless as to how 8v8 team PvP formats work. Poor communication over vent/teamspeak is one of the biggest differences, not bots.

my guild [QC] did a few snowball AT's at the start of the season, i'll admit now 1 guy on our team is macroing, the other 7 not, yet we would repeatedly get flamed and called bots by teams just because we would beat them 10-0. Then an hour later we would go into the playoffs and lose 10-0 to [LR], surely if we were really botting we would at least cap 1?? Its simply a case of Skillz players > GvG/HA players > PvE players in this format at least.

Whilst bots and macros are problematic, the bigger "problem" is the enormous gulf in skill level between those at the top and everyone else. People just get annoyed when they repeatedly lose and thus come on forums to complain about it. This is particularly true for those players coming from a primarily PvE background, they are very used to winning as there is no real "failure" in pve, combined with very little tactical knowledge and an otherwise limited PvP skillset. These together mean that most people are not used to losing, and then enter an arena where they are going to lose a lot...

Its the same thing that happens in RA, good mesmers for example see a monk get kd'd, and "randomly/predictively" rupt him as soon as he stands up. They power block patient spirit or something and get reported for being a bot, even though they basically just know how to play the game and understand that a lot of players will cast immediately after being KD'd. People regularly confuse experience for a bot. Whilst nobody denies bots exist, they are a very small problem, most people are just clueless as to what constitutes a bot and what does not.

The problem is that most players on guild wars do not PvP regularly enough to understand all the tactics and associated knowledge that better players have. The majority of people who cry about bots have no idea what they are talking about.

consumer · Jan 01, 2012, 05:05 PM // 17:05

I think that Anet should increase the RP rewards for snowball ats so that the people who don't place in top 3 still get some rewards and can stop crying about bots and macros.

Dunbari Facestomper · Jan 01, 2012, 05:15 PM // 17:15

I don't understand where all this bot- stuff is coming from, I understand macros are really a big problem and I'm against them but nobody said you could not use them. You basically get to top8 just by picking up the presents.

People crying about drop and dodge bots make me laugh, especially in the recent flux we had; snowballs were so easy to dodge, even from the closest range. You didn't even have to drop the present for that