Curse

bj91x · Jan 07, 2012, 10:56 PM // 22:56

Yes but by then, majority (if not all) of the enemies would be dead so one character doing less damage for the remainder of the fight doesn't mean a whole lot. Some skills/builds are meant to deal burst damage at the beginning of a fight as opposed to sustaining the same amount of DPS for the whole fight.

Unfortunately, exhaustion taking forever to expire often means that when the next battle starts, the caster is still severely exhausted, defeating the point of using exhaustion to give some builds burst damage without letting them sustain it.

Kaida the Heartless · Jan 07, 2012, 10:58 PM // 22:58

Why have a char run options that will lessen their DPS at some point when you can run something that never loses it's DPS value and is just as effective?

Swingline · Jan 07, 2012, 11:10 PM // 23:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

Problem is that if he is "using it all the time" then he's casting his other stuff a lot less. This is particularly bad for a MM, who already wants to spend 95% of their time either casting minion spells or BotM/OoU/whatever. Feels very unoptimal to slot Weaken Armor and measurably decrease the effectiveness of everything else he does.

I use the MM not as a source of damage but as field control and support. That's why hes AoTL + prot spells. I watch him cast all his skills frequently. It only takes 1-2 weaken armors to kill mobs in a VQ. I saw this in sparkly swamp, the ruptured heart and salt flats today. Minions are amazing ballers.

Kunder · Jan 07, 2012, 11:14 PM // 23:14

Idea for MoM: Stone Striker + Mantra of Earth and Prismatic insignia for some serious tanking ability and energy gain. Have more than enough attribute points to run whatever damage spells you like in a 2nd mesmer attribute along with all non-elite ele stuff. Could be new TanknSpank, and certainly opens up options otherwise.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless

Why have a char run options that will lessen their DPS at some point when you can run something that never loses it's DPS value and is just as effective?

The idea of exhaustion is that it should be the tradeoff for an over-powering spell. Making those spells worth the exhaustion would be part of the intended balance

Kaida the Heartless · Jan 07, 2012, 11:18 PM // 23:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

The idea of exhaustion is that it should be the tradeoff for an over-powering spell. Making those spells worth the exhaustion would be part of the intended balance

On people, sure, but because Heroes will never understand the trade-off, it's better to run skills on them that won't hit the "exhaustion-cast-cap".

Kunder · Jan 07, 2012, 11:31 PM // 23:31

If its a sufficiently good spell and heroes didn't overload on exhaustion with it, I would see no problem. If, as I mentioned earlier, Chain Lightning inflicted cracked armor on all enemies it hit (before the damage too), I would consider it worth it. A PvE version of Invoke could probably use another 15-20 damage on top of that. That would be a good spell worth casting once at the start of battle to do a good 130ish damage and prime the 3 enemies with cracked armor. Rest of Air Magic would still be weak still, but it makes CL worth the exhaustion.

Swingline · Jan 08, 2012, 12:01 AM // 00:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

Idea for MoM: Stone Striker + Mantra of Earth and Prismatic insignia for some serious tanking ability and energy gain. Have more than enough attribute points to run whatever damage spells you like in a 2nd mesmer attribute along with all non-elite ele stuff. Could be new TanknSpank, and certainly opens up options otherwise.

Don't get me wrong, I like MoM as an elite but as an enchantment on a hero I don't. Too much rides on this skill for an entire build to be effective and the heroes ability to cover it properly worries me greatly. I do realize its a 10s recharge but there a shit load of enchant strip out there. I would like to see a MoM team build tested.

Daesu · Jan 08, 2012, 12:04 AM // 00:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swingline

Don't get me wrong, I like MoM as an elite but as an enchantment on a hero I don't. Too much rides on this skill for an entire build to be effective and the heroes ability to cover it properly worries me greatly. I do realize its a 10s recharge but there a shit load of enchant strip out there. I would like to see a MoM team build tested.

I tried MoM on heroes and the problem is, the AI doesn't always cast it before casting other spells, which is a disappointment.

Same problem as Symbolic Celerity. It may work some of the time or even most of the time, but at other times they are casting with 0 attribute.

On a human player yes, MoM should work great.

Jeydra · Jan 08, 2012, 02:17 AM // 02:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rezz Anna Nicole

For me, mes nec and rit heroes were ALWAYS faster than invoke eles. I tried both in lots of places and invokes never seemed as efficient as mes nec rit.
That's a fact sir

Prove it with screenshots, then. I've posted way too many screenshots in way too many areas (Swingline, you can / should go search the Heroes and AI forums) and they were all done with Invoke Eles, and they were all the fastest - beating out for example 5-Mesmer teams by half a minute or something in an area that takes 8 minutes to clear (Raisu HM).

Invoke Eles are not as strong as Me / Rt / Mo / N when you're playing with a physical, admittedly. But I'm an Ele primary.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

AP was the most ridiculous way I've ever seen ellys played. You devote a whole skill bar to just 2 elementalist skills (chain lightning and lightning orb), only actually use chain lightning, and claim that this is the best 'elementalist' skill bar when it uses just two offensive elly skills and relies on several PVE skills plus an assassin elite.

If its so good, then give your elly heroes AP + Chain Lightning instead of Invoke + Chain, and thats your minor invoke nerf sorted out.

I dont subscribe to this method of logic. Compare elementalist options now with with elly elites and skills to the same thing before, they are a huge improvement to having only two options as a player elly - ER or AP, or for heroes only having Invoke as an option.

You know nothing. AP is strong not because of Chain Lightning, but because of the PvE skills. AP + Chain Lightning does not work. Use that thing you have in between your ears. AP Air is the best bar for player Elementalist primaries whether you like it or not. You can call it not an Elementalist bar if you want, it does not change the fact that it is the best build possible with Elementalist primary.

Far as I'm concerned, I'm done with you. Have fun.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

SF now beats old IL's DPS so badly it isn't even funny, even without burning it still wins easy. Thats because it can be spammed faster and also activate EBSoH faster.

Against 80 AL enemies, IL/CL hits ~27 DPS with EBSoH. SF hits ~30 DPS before you include burning. Not even considering the fact that can hit a lot more than 3 targets, and Fire has Liquid Flame as well (not calculating it since it's not for DPS, but for spike).

You and your theorycrafting ... just prove it with screenshots. Do something that we had /age screenshots with Invoke Eles of from pre-update, and do it now with SF Eles. Beat those times, if you can. I'm actually positive that post-nerf Invoke Eles are still better than SF Eles in most areas.

FWIW, SF loses to Invoke because of 1) armour and 2) you need the target to be burning before you get the damage. Ensign hit the bull's eye on why AP Air + Invoke Eles was so strong. I'll add that YMLAD + EBVAS from full range allowed superb shutdown of single targets, and you can pick the most dangerous of them to destroy first (e.g. Ruby Djinn, Stone Summit Defenders, etc). Pure damage output is valuable, but not necessarily stronger than having shutdown.

I have overall not had success with Searing Flames. There are too many conditions required out there: you need burning, EBSoH and Weaken Armour. Balling stuff without EBVAS is hard work and requires more healing than I have been running, while balling stuff with EBVAS but without AP has long cooldown. Balling stuff with AP Fire ... idk, maybe. I've not covered all the new ground, we'll see.

Daesu do you play the Mist Form Ele in that team? What is the full team composition? It doesn't matter if it's in the testing phase, I still want to see it.

As for MoM, the big problem is that it competes directly with Elemental Attunement, and as of now I can't see any reason to pick MoM instead of Elemental Attunement (save Prismatic Insignia).

Kunder · Jan 08, 2012, 02:44 AM // 02:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

You and your theorycrafting ... just prove it with screenshots. Do something that we had /age screenshots with Invoke Eles of from pre-update, and do it now with SF Eles. Beat those times, if you can. I'm actually positive that post-nerf Invoke Eles are still better than SF Eles in most areas.

You are joking right? Post Nerf Invokes hit exhaustion limits after a few battles. Simple DPS calculations aren't theorycrafting, they are cold facts. Its not like mesmers where the damage is variable, SF has the same AoE, does more damage and hits more things.

I can't do any speed runs at the moment, I have no characters with the ability to run the correct builds. Not that I give a crap in any case, speed runs are very poor indicators of build strength (considering the margin of error between runs), they are indicators of luck and practice abusing monster AI. The cold hard fact is that in any case you ran an Invoke before doing the exact same run but replacing it with an SF ele would be outputting more damage, unless it is against an uber armor enemy or something like destroyers.

Quote:

FWIW, SF loses to Invoke because of 1) armour and 2) you need the target to be burning before you get the damage. Ensign hit the bull's eye on why AP Air + Invoke Eles was so strong. I'll add that YMLAD + EBVAS from full range allowed superb shutdown of single targets, and you can pick the most dangerous of them to destroy first (e.g. Ruby Djinn, Stone Summit Defenders, etc). Pure damage output is valuable, but not necessarily stronger than having shutdown.

Armor just got nerfed if you didn't notice, and the Burning is actually a net benefit in most cases, very rarely can it be a net loss. And if we are talking clear speed, pure damage output is pretty much all that matters.

Still, what makes you think you are unable to take YMLAD or EVAS just because you changed the eles from Invoke to SF?

Quote:

I have overall not had success with Searing Flames. There are too many conditions required out there: you need burning, EBSoH and Weaken Armour. Balling stuff without EBVAS is hard work and requires more healing than I have been running, while balling stuff with EBVAS but without AP has long cooldown. Balling stuff with AP Fire ... idk, maybe. I've not covered all the new ground, we'll see.

No, you don't actually need any of those. SF is and always has been approximately equivalent damage against AL 80 enemies without EBSoH or Weaken Armor. With either of those it becomes significantly better.

Quote:

As for MoM, the big problem is that it competes directly with Elemental Attunement, and as of now I can't see any reason to pick MoM instead of Elemental Attunement (save Prismatic Insignia).

There's definitely that. You really need to take advantage of a secondary to make MoM worthwhile.

Lanier · Jan 08, 2012, 03:29 AM // 03:29

/age is a poor way to compare builds between different people. Good pulling/aggro strategies and the degree to which you micro-manage will affect your speed a lot more than builds, but everyone pulls different, and there is no way to verify that two people have used the same method for pulling or microing heroes.

Lithril Ashwalker · Jan 08, 2012, 03:45 AM // 03:45

Bsurge is still OP, instead of a tapout, they gave it some freakin steroids, its not worse, spam blind, thats all you can do now with it and more dmg. increase the freakin recharge and lower the duration of blind!

Chthon · Jan 08, 2012, 04:01 AM // 04:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

You are joking right? Post Nerf Invokes hit exhaustion limits after a few battles. Simple DPS calculations aren't theorycrafting, they are cold facts. Its not like mesmers where the damage is variable, SF has the same AoE, does more damage and hits more things.

This particular calculation happens to be a bit of a pain. Searing Flames has to account for the fact that some casts cause burning rather than damage. And then it gets even worse since how many casts go towards burning depends on how many other SF eles there are and whether something like Mark of Rodgort is also causing burning. Finally, the recycle time is so quick that casting other skills can have an effect on the actual cycle. On the flip side, the damage on Invoke/Chain does not scale with monster armor the same way everything else does, so we can't do a comparison at one arbitrary armor level and generalize the result for all armor levels.

All that said, my instinct is that you're correct. When I have time, someday I may sit down and check the math to verify that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

/age is a poor way to compare builds between different people. Good pulling/aggro strategies and the decree to which you micro-manage will affect your speed a lot more than builds, but everyone pulls different, and there is no way to verify that two people have used the same method for pulling or microing heroes.

There's really no foolproof method of comparison. Having two different people run the builds that they champion leaves us unsure how much of the difference comes from the builds and how much from the differences between the players. On the other hand, having one person run two builds doesn't really take away the problem of a potential skill differential (I might be much better at playing a physway team than a casterball) and introduces problems of unconscious bias, self-deception/cognitive bias, and maybe even deliberate dishonesty. A third method (which has its own problems) is to try to model both builds mathematically. Every option has impediments to accuracy. The best we can do is try to pick the method whose impediments to accuracy are least strong in whatever case we're examining.

Essence Snow · Jan 08, 2012, 04:59 AM // 04:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

/age is a poor way to compare builds between different people. Good pulling/aggro strategies and the degree to which you micro-manage will affect your speed a lot more than builds, but everyone pulls different, and there is no way to verify that two people have used the same method for pulling or microing heroes.

Although I have disagreed with Lanier in the past, I'm going to have to agree here. Jeydra...you yourself have admitted that your above average aggro control has more to do with your times than the builds you run.

Wenspire · Jan 08, 2012, 05:30 AM // 05:30

When time differences are within a few minutes, I feel the it can be attributed to playstyle tactics rather than builds. It gets even more hazy if areas have cutscenes and other factors that can shorten time based on familiarity.

*lemming* · Jan 08, 2012, 06:20 AM // 06:20

Based on one match against it, I have tentatively concluded that Stone Sheath is absolutely bonkers.

Kunder · Jan 08, 2012, 06:26 AM // 06:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

This particular calculation happens to be a bit of a pain. Searing Flames has to account for the fact that some casts cause burning rather than damage. And then it gets even worse since how many casts go towards burning depends on how many other SF eles there are and whether something like Mark of Rodgort is also causing burning. Finally, the recycle time is so quick that casting other skills can have an effect on the actual cycle. On the flip side, the damage on Invoke/Chain does not scale with monster armor the same way everything else does, so we can't do a comparison at one arbitrary armor level and generalize the result for all armor levels.

All that said, my instinct is that you're correct. When I have time, someday I may sit down and check the math to verify that.

I ignored burning. Reason being that 5s of burning = 70 damage, the same amount that SF would do against 80 armor. 5s from first SF shot to death is probably pretty close to the average enemy lifetime. More time would increase DPS, less would decrease DPS. For the most part I think the difference is negligible, keep in mind it includes things that aren't the main target and are burning while you pummel the main target. In any case, when you have 4x SF casters about 90% of the casts are full on damage, so the minute change in burning DPS would only affect that minute 10% of casts.

Also ignored skills other than Invoke/CL/SF. Reason being that its almost exactly the same cycle time (SF is 1.75s / 3s, Invoke + CL is 4.5/7.75s). SF has the slight problem of shorter intervals, but CL has the problem that its recharge rate doesn't operate on the same wavelength as Invoke, causing them to clash and dip in casting speed as the battle drags on.

Interestingly enough, if you run just a single SF vs a single invoke, SF wins easily no matter how high armor goes because the burning is 100% armor ignoring. Against AL 140 you don't even need to cast SF a second time for damage, Invoke + CL's DPS is well under the 14 of burning alone. Not relevant to the discussion, but a fun tidbit.

Quote:

There's really no foolproof method of comparison. Having two different people run the builds that they champion leaves us unsure how much of the difference comes from the builds and how much from the differences between the players. On the other hand, having one person run two builds doesn't really take away the problem of a potential skill differential (I might be much better at playing a physway team than a casterball) and introduces problems of unconscious bias, self-deception/cognitive bias, and maybe even deliberate dishonesty. A third method (which has its own problems) is to try to model both builds mathematically. Every option has impediments to accuracy. The best we can do is try to pick the method whose impediments to accuracy are least strong in whatever case we're examining.

The reason I propose the third method for this is because there really isn't much different from how the two builds operate. Its clear if one ele presses A to do 30 DPS in nearby range, then the other presses A to do 40 DPS in nearby range, and both sides have no other distinguishing features, the 2nd is more effective. With Ele vs Mesmer there is a large difference in how damage works (mesmer damage might not trigger, but might also stop healing), and the relative AoE sizes + hero intelligence in usage, so controlled tests are therefore more relevant.

I don't even want to bother trying to beat Jeydra's time that he has honed constantly on his own chosen mission with my heroes who I don't even bother to change the equipment on and my mesmer who still doesn't have a single PvE skill title. I have better things to do then to start rolling d20 vs enemy spawns until I get natural 20s for an entire mission.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

Based on one match against it, I have tentatively concluded that Stone Sheath is absolutely bonkers.

Yeah. Trying to spike the equivalent of a backline warrior with crit immunity is rather futile.

Essence Snow · Jan 08, 2012, 07:16 AM // 07:16

Is it just me or is the 2 other foes "near" target of invoke...vs all foes "nearby" of SF being completely ignored in this debate? Btw "near" and "nearby" are the same range.

madriel222 · Jan 08, 2012, 07:42 AM // 07:42

The proponents of Invoke usually said that in general pve, you wouldn't have 4+ monsters grouped up in most situations anyway. You can go looking through some of the old threads for quotes, but that was one of the caveats: "Invoke was better than X provided you aren't efficiently balling foes or dealing with abnormally large mobs."

Ensign · Jan 08, 2012, 08:00 AM // 08:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by madriel222

The proponents of Invoke usually said that in general pve, you wouldn't have 4+ monsters grouped up in most situations anyway. You can go looking through some of the old threads for quotes, but that was one of the caveats: "Invoke was better than X provided you aren't efficiently balling foes or dealing with abnormally large mobs."

Invoke Eles were something you ran for blowing through areas quickly. They were for charging a mob, spiking down a couple targets, and charging to the next mob. If you were taking the time to ball up foes, you should not be using Air guys.