Curse

bhavv · Jan 06, 2012, 05:00 PM // 17:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Invoke and Chain Lightning were the best damage skills for Elementalists, prior to their nerf. They are spammable, they are unavoidable, they deal heavy, fully ranged AoE damage. There is no comparison.

I disagree again. Invoke and Chain Lightning could only hit a limited number of targets. Energy Surge, Unnautural Signet, Mistrust and Overload all hit unlimited targets within range with armour ignoring damage.

Invoke and Chain Lightning were mostly useful in PVP only, they had very little use in PVE and were no where near as effective as Mesmers were for raw damage output.

[QUOTE=Jeydra;5621841
Invoke @ 16 Air vs. AL 100, 80 and 60 dummies does 75, 95 and 125 damage respectively.
Thunderclap @ 16 Air vs. AL 100, 80 and 60 dummies does 42, 53 and 70 damage respectively.
[/QUOTE]

The test dummies are only indicative of damage against players in PVP, or enemies in NM. HM enemies tend to have much more armour than those dummies do.

Xsiriss · Jan 06, 2012, 05:01 PM // 17:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

I disagree that the update made elly heroes weaker, invoke and chain lightning were rarely ever used in PVE, and they still work if you simply use either one on an Air hero

Er the only reason why would take an ele in both PvE and PvP(e/mo protters aside) would be for an invoke+chain lightning ele. It could (emphasis on past tense) constantly churn out aoe, armour penetrating damage (even better with numerous cracked advantage possibilities in pve) that was superior to other damage types. It also had relatively decent energy management and support (shock arrow,shell shock,blinding flash for PvP.) Now you can't take both, exhaustion is still a pain and Thunderclap's inferior damage and range make it a weak alternative. Trying out a mindburn build made me realise that one exhaustion skill that's remotely spammable is still a big downside.

In comparison to an e-surge mesmer it could do a lot of damage and much more frequently. Rarely are mobs so stacked together where their slightly better aoe ability makes the difference

I agree with Jeydra, and until we see normal skill getting a buff we won't see much change.

bhavv · Jan 06, 2012, 05:04 PM // 17:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xsiriss

Er the only reason why would take an ele in both PvE and PvP(e/mo protters aside) would be for an invoke+chain lightning ele.

That was true previously, but now you have many more valid options to pick from.

There was very little point to taking an Invoke Elly instead of armor ignoring damage prior to this update anyway.

Actually, I remember it wasnt true. Recently my guild was doing successful HM Urgoz runs with fire nuker ellys.

Daesu · Jan 06, 2012, 05:05 PM // 17:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

I've been testing arcane mimicry - it wont work on heroes for anything other than UA because they cast it on recharge which wastes it, and microing 7 mimicries would be a tedious nightmare.

It would work on heroes if you choose the skill that they mimic wisely. You don't need a maintained enchantment like UA, all you need is a longer lasting enchantment, e.g. MoM, Mist Form, Energy Boon. Once they cast the enchantment, it doesn't matter if mimicry goes through recharge, the enchantment stays until they can mimic again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

I disagree that the update made elly heroes weaker, invoke and chain lightning were rarely ever used in PVE, and they still work if you simply use either one on an Air hero.

I agree with you.

My ele team feels much stronger in HM than they were before the update. Your video proves it, even though there are more powerful build alternatives. I don't think Invoke is the best elite right now, but heck neither is SoS, so we all have to adapt. I am still testing it, but air seems to be a weaker line now compared to the rest.

Xsiriss · Jan 06, 2012, 05:09 PM // 17:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

Actually, I remember it wasnt true. Recently my guild was doing successful HM Urgoz runs with fire nuker ellys.

Special circumstance. This is because there are mostly plant enemies, and fire actually has an advantage there and because the sheer number of enemies makes them the most effective way to take the mobs out. Especially as they're much easier to ball up as the spawns are very linear (no patrols etc.) You wouldn't say a knocklock warrior was THE build to run because you use it in the deep.

bhavv · Jan 06, 2012, 05:16 PM // 17:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Your video proves it, even though there are more powerful build alternatives. I don't think Invoke is the best elite right now, but heck neither is SoS, so we all have to adapt.

I'm not bothered if there are more powerful alternatives, I've simply always wanted to be able to play the game with full Elly teams with builds from all elements, and now I can.

Previously, the only thing that worked was Invoke. Now every element works in PVE, it doesnt bother me what is weaker or stronger, as far as I can tell I will be able to beat what I have left in the game which is HM dungeons with at least 6 ellys and 2 monks, if not 8 ellys.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xsiriss

Special circumstance. This is because there are mostly plant enemies, and fire actually has an advantage there and because the sheer number of enemies makes them the most effective way to take the mobs out. Especially as they're much easier to ball up as the spawns are very linear (no patrols etc.) You wouldn't say a knocklock warrior was THE build to run because you use it in the deep.

And the only real reason for why people would take Invoke ellys anywhere else in PVE was due to pity for their favourite class, not because it was the best, or an enjoyable choice.

DiogoSilva · Jan 06, 2012, 05:16 PM // 17:16

Against the Am Fah spellcasters, Shaterstone dealt the full 105 damage. That makes me VERY satisfied. 210 single target + 105 neaby > far better than Invoke Lightning; but as known, the non-elites are lacking. I used Ice Spikes, Glowing Ice to recover my energy right after, and Blurred Vision and Maelstrom for the lack of better choices. Maybe I'd take those last two out for some PvE skills. Also had the Glyph+Attune+E.lLord for energy management, and usually didn't have much e. problems.

However, it really depends a lot on the enemies you face. I went to the Marketplace, and against Mantids, SS was at 68 damage per hit. And like I stated before, against Ministry of Purity spellcasters, in Shadow's Passage, the damage was about 65.

Cracked Armor is still definitely needed, if only because the foes armor is way too variable. People might need to check the individual elemental resistances of foes in the area before using their elementalist builds, because that might make a difference in determining if they are worth over some other hero builds or not, and if cracked armor is really needed or just optional.

Necromancers with weaken armor is a must, derv heroes should also probably take that attack skill that applies cracked, and I wonder if Shockwave does fine on melee characters. A constant aoe reapplication of cracked armor might be important to keep ele's numbers big (and make those melee stronger as well), but half of this will only be relevant after the melee AI update (which might come out with WoC part 3).

bhavv · Jan 06, 2012, 05:20 PM // 17:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by DiogoSilva

.... but as known, the non-elites are lacking. I used Ice Spikes, Glowing Ice to recover my energy right after, and Blurred Vision and Maelstrom for the lack of better choices. Maybe I'd take those last two out for some PvE skills. Also had the Glyph+Attune+E.lLord for energy management, and usually didn't have much e. problems.

I agree with this, I really hope that Water magic non elites can be improved for PVE to make Shatterstone / Mirror of Ice / Water Trident builds more valid. I will also try using maelstrom instead of deep freeze, this should help to compensate for the lack of panic.

BTW if you havnt tried it out yet, Arcane echo > Double Dragon is superb fun in RA, and very effective if you have a melee on your team. Otherwise just cast it on anyone thats being attacked.

Daesu · Jan 06, 2012, 05:30 PM // 17:30

Yes double dragon is great with melee.

I am finding Mist Form to be overpowered with multiple copies of it in an Ele team. My heroes also arcane mimic my MoM and just spam. Water magic shows promise. The AoE spells like Ice spike and churning earth are especially devastating.

DiogoSilva · Jan 06, 2012, 05:47 PM // 17:47

I just tested Blinding Surge against Mantid Drones/ Am Fah too. When it fully connects, it's almost as strong as Chain Lightning, damage-wise, but with less range and with lots of blind. It dealt about 100-110 damage after cracked armor on assassins (Chain Lightning dealt about 115-130). Seems to be about on par with Ineptitude, with slightly less damage but being more spammable both in casting time, recharge and energy cost. But when it doesn't connects, Blinding Surge damage is that of a Lightning Strike (lol). I suppose heroes might use it wisely (the AI is usually decent at checking conditions), but that might also mean then won't use it for a spike.

Lightning Orb + Blinding Surge + Chain Lightning also have the extra to be very spammable, and after glyph, attunement and E. Lord, you still have two slots left for whatever you want. I tried intensity and EBSoH, but they were a bit underwhelming. I was thinking of Technobabble for a good alternative against non-physical attackers, and maybe an extra spike skill for the same reasons. It would make the build very balanced in support and damage for a player to use.

I'm unsure of this elite, and I think either a base damage of 75 (instead of 50) or a nearby range would have made it an easier choice to pick. Thunderclap might have a more general use (for less damage), but TC suffers more from the lack of spammable non-elite choices, because it substitutes one of them for PvE.

Xsiriss · Jan 06, 2012, 05:51 PM // 17:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

And the only real reason for why people would take Invoke ellys anywhere else in PVE was due to pity for their favourite class, not because it was the best, or an enjoyable choice.

No you're missing the point in your bias. The invoke build was an all round good thing, capable of consistently dealing large amounts of damage to multiple or single targets as well as being able to take support skills for cracked armour or even stuff like rend enchantments or blind. It was versatile. Something like a mesmer or a rit is more situational and has different functionalities (splinter wep/spirit support and anti caster/interrupts respectively). Yes they deal damage, but through utility. You can't compare the single damage factor of E-surge to the Air line, which is designed for the main purpose of dps. Especially seeing as do make a decent mesmer dps built you need the help of pve skills.

Invoke also has a much better role in places where the raw damage outclasses armour ignoring damage in most cases. This can spell classes or the whole of Normal Mode. Yes NM, it's still a large part of PvE that people play and is worth taking into account.

Caerulei · Jan 06, 2012, 06:01 PM // 18:01

Just gotta say, love this update, but perhaps being an Elementalist makes me biased. I know my Ritualist friend is going to be ticked, all of those nerfed skills he uses in his current build.

I love my Starburst build and this update seriously improved that. I win against just about any Warrior or Dervish in pvp (barring a mystic) if both of us have full health/energy. This certainly makes me want to use it against the hordes in pve as well.

Very pleased.

Daesu · Jan 06, 2012, 06:21 PM // 18:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by DiogoSilva

I just tested Blinding Surge against Mantid Drones/ Am Fah too. When it fully connects, it's almost as strong as Chain Lightning, damage-wise, but with less range and with lots of blind. It dealt about 100-110 damage after cracked armor on assassins (Chain Lightning dealt about 115-130). Seems to be about on par with Ineptitude, with slightly less damage but being more spammable both in casting time, recharge and energy cost. But when it doesn't connects, Blinding Surge damage is that of a Lightning Strike (lol). I suppose heroes might use it wisely (the AI is usually decent at checking conditions), but that might also mean then won't use it for a spike.

Lightning Orb + Blinding Surge + Chain Lightning also have the extra to be very spammable, and after glyph, attunement and E. Lord, you still have two slots left for whatever you want. I tried intensity and EBSoH, but they were a bit underwhelming. I was thinking of Technobabble for a good alternative against non-physical attackers, and maybe an extra spike skill for the same reasons. It would make the build very balanced in support and damage for a player to use.

I'm unsure of this elite, and I think either a base damage of 75 (instead of 50) or a nearby range would have made it an easier choice to pick. Thunderclap might have a more general use (for less damage), but TC suffers more from the lack of spammable non-elite choices, because it substitutes one of them for PvE.

Very cool for confirming that air magic is still powerful. I thought of only trying to bring multiple copies of Gust, in an ele team, for KD.

The most promising elite so far, at least personally, is MoM. It makes previously impossible builds with various non-elite skills possible. As for water magic, I smell water magic solo farming builds in the horizon.

bhavv · Jan 06, 2012, 06:25 PM // 18:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xsiriss

No you're missing the point in your bias. The invoke build was an all round good thing, capable of consistently dealing large amounts of damage to multiple or single targets as well as being able to take support skills for cracked armour or even stuff like rend enchantments or blind. It was versatile. Something like a mesmer or a rit is more situational and has different functionalities (splinter wep/spirit support and anti caster/interrupts respectively). Yes they deal damage, but through utility. You can't compare the single damage factor of E-surge to the Air line, which is designed for the main purpose of dps. Especially seeing as do make a decent mesmer dps built you need the help of pve skills.

Invoke also has a much better role in places where the raw damage outclasses armour ignoring damage in most cases. This can spell classes or the whole of Normal Mode. Yes NM, it's still a large part of PvE that people play and is worth taking into account.

Im not talking about nor bothered with NM, anything works in NM. In fact in that case, Searing Flames would be better than Invoke.

Invoke is a good build, but in HM PVE it wasnt close to as good as people are pretending / hyping it up to be. Against larger mobs, both Energy Surge and Mistrust easily dealt far more raw damage than Invoke ever could, and the conditions for them were easily met in PVE (also for Cry of Frustration, Overload and Unnatural sig).

Fire magic was meant to have been designed for more DPS than Air, but as we all know nothing about ellys worked as the class was intended once HM was turned on, and this update is specifically concerning the effectiveness of ellys in HM, not in incredibly easy NM.

The nerf to Invoke is meaningless to a player controlled character, all it affects is heroes. It is still easy to use, and heroes can still use wither one of Invoke or Chain lightning without any problems.

Invoke and Chain Lightning were also incredibly brainless skills to use in their previous form, all you had to do was stand there mashing buttons 1 + 2 without ever thinking about anything. I suppose that is why people enjoyed using them in PVE, as most other builds tend to require additional thought and skill. Now you simply have to be careful not to over spam them, hardly anything worth complaining about.

Avatar Exico · Jan 06, 2012, 06:36 PM // 18:36

This just thought but has anyone notice that with all conditions now that elites are putting wouldn't be smart to bring Fragility. Combining Fragility with Shockwave because the spell what I saw alone does 150 dmg to dummies with 100 armor in AoE and add fragility with that almost 200 dmg per cast. Fragility be very Overpowered now with Eles with all conditions that now afflict.

bhavv · Jan 06, 2012, 06:38 PM // 18:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avatar Exico

This just thought but has anyone notice that with all conditions now that elites are putting wouldn't be smart to bring Fragility. Combining Fragility with Shockwave because the spell what I saw alone does 150 dmg to dummies with 100 armor in AoE and add fragility with that almost 200 dmg per cast. Fragility be very Overpowered now with Eles with all conditions that now afflict.

I've already tested that too and it is very powerful - dont forget to also try crystal wave after shockwave.

Fragility > Earthquake > Aftershock > Shockwave > Crystal Wave will be very powerful in PVE.

ashes · Jan 06, 2012, 06:45 PM // 18:45

How will foes flee from aoe dmg now compared to pre-update?

DiogoSilva · Jan 06, 2012, 06:49 PM // 18:49

MoM is more exciting than it seemed to me at first glance. It can have so many uses. You don't even need to make a four-elemental build; you can even just focus on one element and having more for additional effects, and MoM can work like a dual-attunement too.

I've tried for Jade Quarry a build that revolves around Fireball, Eruption, Tenai's Heat, Meteor and Ward Against Foes. Eruption+Heat was great for capping, with Fireball giving the final blow and Meteor disabling the annoying cappers in-between the nukes. Fireball is the spammable skill of choice, Ward Against Foes is excellent for so many things there: against melee, to allow your nukes to kill the melee or any other; against cappers/ runners, and against the kurzick/ luxon creatures. This build took MoM over E.Attunement, because the later forced me to spread too much my attributes, and the extra energy wasn't that needed.

E. Attunement is still the best one for dual-attunment, especially when you want to spam some Rodgord's after (if for PvE) an early Deep Freeze.

EDIT: I'm interested in trying Glyph of Energy with Earthquake and Dragon Stomp.

bhavv · Jan 06, 2012, 06:50 PM // 18:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by ashes

How will foes flee from aoe dmg now compared to pre-update?

They still flee from AoE spells like Searing Heat and Churning Earth, but Double Dragon doesnt cause any scatter.

Water hexes and AoE is a good combination to use to reduce scatter too.

Swingline · Jan 06, 2012, 07:09 PM // 19:09

I call it Icy Flames

Perfected