Curse

Gill Halendt · Jun 11, 2012, 06:59 AM // 06:59

Actually, the Guild Wars the game was named after are historical events predating the Searing.

It has nothing to do with GvG at all. The Guilds we can join are nothing like the Guilds involved in the wars. If anything, they can be considered a mere kickstart for the whole PvE story in Prophecies.

drkn · Jun 11, 2012, 08:45 AM // 08:45

Quote:

You are also quite silly to think that this game is named after a tiny nugget of lore that is only briefly mentioned indirectly during the prophecies campaign.

It is really ignorant to think that the game was called after a PvP format, or PvP side of the game in general. Guild Wars is a catchy name - and that's good enough to choose it, especially that it made sense in terms of the game's lore. I think that the old lore, like guild wars from Adelbern's times, were much more important when the game was initially developed, but then the add-ons and expansions went down a completely different road.

Lasai · Jun 11, 2012, 12:31 PM // 12:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swingline

snip

Your worries and mine however are not the same. Anet has bigger problems than just grind at the moment, mostly centering around WvW and connectivity issues. There's also the matter of will the game actually be playable on mid range machines that Anet has stated numerous times. The answer points to a negative one in WvW and highly populated areas. I also think there are problems with the movement mechanics and the camera not zooming out far enough, not to mention that partical effects become downright silly and will lag up many people machines.

The spot where Anet really ticks me off is where they abandon their philosophy of making great games for people with not much hardware under the hood for a cheesy MMO knockoff that will probably lag like a bitch for everyone in WvW.

My thoughts also. MMO Developers seem to forget that everything they create is eventually funneled through a pipeline that frankly is not keeping up with them. All of the computing muscle in the world on your desk does not matter when all of the whiz bang effects, customizations, etc are packets being shoved through the same old pipe. Connectivity and packets will be the biggest problem people see in large scale anything, as it has been in all mmos, particularly pvp, to date.

The old, lower reqs had the side benefit of sending less info. We have all experienced issues of just NOT being where our screen said we were. Add in real time dodge and move to target.. people are going to be raging.

That aside.. I will not be purchasing GW2. I have RA. 2 fingers of my left hand are permanently clenched. WASD..no. They have gone from one of the most disabled friendly games I know of to a model that just won't really allow successful play with limited hand movements. I know, Im not target market. Just sayin.

projectmercy · Jun 11, 2012, 05:44 PM // 17:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lasai

That aside.. I will not be purchasing GW2. I have RA. 2 fingers of my left hand are permanently clenched. WASD..no. They have gone from one of the most disabled friendly games I know of to a model that just won't really allow successful play with limited hand movements. I know, Im not target market. Just sayin.

While I don't have anything that bad, I have a hard time with WASD also at this point. I have a Logitech G13. I replaced the thumbstick inside it with one from a Logitech PS3-style gamepad (it's just a simple swap), and I drive with the stick. Due to the odd angle of the keypad (For some reason Logitech STILL thinks people want to drive with WASD, so the stick is designed so you move your hand over to it to move the map around instead of driving with it, even though just about everyone on the forum drives with the stick.. baffles me), I find you're left only able to use 10-15 of the buttons on the keypad (depending on your hand size), instead of the full compliment. But with macroing and such, you can play most games.

I also use a USB foot pedal for things like PTT and auto-run. It gives me time to pull my hand off the pad and flex/relax my arm.

This is why the current MMO style of "make more skills!" always feels dumb to me, both from usability and good design. Instead of making the game more interesting and complex in design, they make the UI more complex. Yes, it accomplishes the goal, but it does it in an unfriendly way.

AION had the right idea by putting skill chains in. It was at least a nice start to taking what people like about fall-through macros and making them more usable.. but no. we just get games now with larger stacks of macro bars and mice with 35 buttons on them.

Actual Malice · Jun 12, 2012, 02:35 AM // 02:35

I just segued over here from the official support forum thread "From an old disgruntled mmo player" and can't find the difference in tone more stark. That thread is from veteran players who have tried GW2 during the BWEs and are reveling in it. Okay, Brightsides, I admit to more than a little trepidation re certain aspects of GW2 (so long 20th level max) myself, and I too have noticed the emptiness in the farther reaches of GW. I love GW and still play it, and I can wish it was more populated -- and I know no game will ever fully measure up to those early halcyon days when I thought Pre-Searing WAS the game, and then I learned differently ....

But GW2 has much to recommend it. Anet is really trying to get back a sense of civil community. It has been heartening to see players travel considerable distances during the BWEs and take no few risks just to rez a total stranger. There really has been a sense of helpfulness and "we're all in this together" during the dynamic events. Strangers will answer a map-wide call to arms, group and then disperse, or continue onto the next dynamic event. It all has a casual ebb and flow, at least up to this point. It will be interesting to see the effect guilds will have when they gear up on release. It's no GW1, but then nothing ever will be. But Anet took huge risks in its gameplay in GW and it's doing likewise in GW2. So far, I have found the game mesmerizing. Let's keep our fingers crossed that it will at least approach the standard that GW1 has set.

Kula · Jun 12, 2012, 08:20 AM // 08:20

Don't worry and just enjoy it while you can. Even 1 year of enjoyment is worth the price of the game.

Swingline · Jun 12, 2012, 09:23 AM // 09:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by enter_the_zone

And actually, the lore on the Guild Wars has nothing to do with GvG, at all.

uhhhh yea it is. The game was named Guild Wars because of the present events, guilds created by players fighting each other. The lore is just there because every rpg type game needs history.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lasai

2 fingers of my left hand are permanently clenched. WASD..no. They have gone from one of the most disabled friendly games I know of to a model that just won't really allow successful play with limited hand movements. I know, Im not target market. Just sayin.

Sorry man, that sucks.

ValaOfTheFens · Jun 12, 2012, 03:44 PM // 15:44

We were all different people when GW1 was released. I had recently graduated from college and my "job" was being my Nana's caretaker. Since she slept alot I had tons of free time on my hands and GW was there to fill the time. Soon I was suggesting it to my Magic:the Gathering buddies and we even formed a guild. It was a great time and simply impossible to recapture. I remember running to different places so I could get certain armor pieces(before insignia armors had specific functions). I died alot in the Crystal Dessert and even on Drok's Run(never go afk!). I defeat that foul fiend Galrath and beheld the floating Wizard's Tower. ^_^ I have infused 6 armor sets and killed the Eidolon simply because it was there.

Now I'm just a bored old Necro. I spend alot of time making up awesome stories about Vala as a captain of the Ebon Vanguard and prance about the Charr Homelands sticking it too those filthy curs.

enter_the_zone · Jun 12, 2012, 05:51 PM // 17:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swingline

uhhhh yea it is. The game was named Guild Wars because of the present events, guilds created by players fighting each other. The lore is just there because every rpg type game needs history.

To quote myself :

Quote:

Originally Posted by enter_the_zone

Yes, and it's so sensible to think it's called Guild Wars after PvP when the closest it's ever managed via pvp is GvG tournaments, with prizes and no real consequences for anything in the game at all. No actual implementation of any competitiveness between guilds, outside of having a ladder...not exactly a war... if it was legit named for the pvp aspect, then that's just plain stupid given the pvp implementations they chose.

Then to quote Gill :

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

Actually, the Guild Wars the game was named after are historical events predating the Searing.

It has nothing to do with GvG at all. The Guilds we can join are nothing like the Guilds involved in the wars. If anything, they can be considered a mere kickstart for the whole PvE story in Prophecies.

Oh, and tl;dr : you're wrong, or you're right and Anet are idiots....

Skyy High · Jun 12, 2012, 06:26 PM // 18:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by fireflyry

Pretty much that Anets initial mantra of...

...is now totally incorrect, if not totally hypocritical.

Grind is a core component for many titles and HoM rewards.That's flawed game design in regards to Anet's initial philosophy and if players have to grind to attain reward that is certainly Anets fault, they conciously decided to add the mechanic to the game.Repetition of content to attain reward is not what hooked many into this game and in regards to the threads theme is something that has put many players off the game compared to the "good old days" before titles and HoM when such mechanics were purely optional.

I'm not anti-HoM either, I don't care to much for it but it's keeping the game ticking but I vastly prefer the days playing before it's arrival.

Each to their own.

I really hope your wrong but have to agree in part.

Rank requests from day one?God I hope not.

GW1 had aesthetic grind from day one. Rare weapons? Hell, getting any kind of useful weapon that wasn't a collector's weapon was a pretty big deal. 15k armor was a big deal. Obsidian armor was just insane. We have guaranteed aesthetic rewards for beating campaigns and certain content now (think Oppressor weapons), but back then if you wanted a reward, there was nothing to do except grind, because you sure as hell weren't getting rewarded with one for just playing.

Actually, it had power grind too, a heck of a lot more than we have now. Perfect mods were difficult to find, perfect weapons (that weren't collector's weapons) were even more difficult. Unlocking gear and skills via PvP was incredibly difficult (IIRC, Balthazar Faction wasn't even around at release, so you HAD to PvE to PvP, and the initial rate of faction gain was pathetic). Leveling was slow and boring enough that powerleveling was a decent way to make money. I made hundreds of platinum running people around the desert on my ranger in the first year of the game.

The only thing that's changed now is that more people are interested in doing the aesthetic grind, because a) it's transferring to GW2, and b) there's not much else to do. People just have rose-tinted glasses about the early days of GW1; the skill > time policy has never been applicable to aesthetic rewards.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lasai

MMO Developers seem to forget that everything they create is eventually funneled through a pipeline that frankly is not keeping up with them.

GW2 was made on computers that weren't exactly top-notch when they started, and that was years ago. I don't think you can seriously claim that GW2 is only being coded for high end computers. My 3 year old laptop chugged like hell in the first BWE, particularly in WvW, but this past weekend I played WvW with a decent framerate, and PvE was completely smooth. I think performance issues have far more to do with the fact that the game isn't optimized yet than the fact that they aren't coding the game with older tech in mind...because they demonstrably are doing exactly that.

carnage-runner · Jun 12, 2012, 08:35 PM // 20:35

Gah. All the negatoryisms of doom. I love the grind. The grind and the highend areas only. Man, the shit's fun. I love running my accounts through dungeons and hoping to get nice loot. It's like chest running in 07 hoping for that r8 to drop, or farming in 05, 06 hoping for that r7 to drop. It's the new aspect of the old ideas and I'm ok with it. Gw1 has tons of active guilds, tons of things to do, and more than enough diversity to keep you or anyone occupied. Those who say it's "dead" or that it sucks or that it's broken. W/e. It is broken, all games are broken, but it still works half decent. It still has a shit ton of things to do, and a lot of areas of the game have been forgotten. I see everyone whine and complain about the same old shit. Figure out what you want to do in the game, no matter how bizarre it is, and find others with like minds. If people would give up their holds and just join other guilds that suited their desires over the prestige of a certain cape or guild tag.... DOT DOT DOT.... ... W/e. GW2 looks sick, is fun to play and will be a fantastic game. Gw1 is sick, is fun to play, and is a fantastic game. My 452 cents.

Martin Firestorm · Jun 12, 2012, 09:08 PM // 21:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by carnage-runner

Those who say it's "dead"

People have been saying this just pretty much since day one. I remember my first forum debate on that topic. It was in September....2005!

Lasai · Jun 13, 2012, 04:12 AM // 04:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

snipped

GW2 was made on computers that weren't exactly top-notch when they started, and that was years ago. I don't think you can seriously claim that GW2 is only being coded for high end computers. My 3 year old laptop chugged like hell in the first BWE, particularly in WvW, but this past weekend I played WvW with a decent framerate, and PvE was completely smooth. I think performance issues have far more to do with the fact that the game isn't optimized yet than the fact that they aren't coding the game with older tech in mind...because they demonstrably are doing exactly that.

Dude, if you are going to quote me, don't snip to make some unrelated point. My post was about connectivity, the net, the "pipeline". It will effect large population activities, as it does now, always has, and will continue to. Wake up and realize that a pretty high % of the population is not on fiber optic, not on DSL, and is chugging along on Broadband. Increasing the number of packets sent along with real time mechanics is not going to work well for a lot of connections, and yet MMO Devs seem to ignore it.

fireflyry · Jun 14, 2012, 12:04 PM // 12:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by ruk1a

It's amazing people make such big deals out of such small rewards you get for titles/HoM

I don't think many here think it's that big a deal at all, personally I won't be going for any of it, but it certainly merits debate and discussion when considering it's actual effect on the game as a whole as was seemingly the OP's theme.

Anything else it purely subjective opinion.

Imagine for a second being a new player trying to complete the game on NM with just PuG's and henchies.Urrgghhh.

Sure the game has aged but players have been specifically directed towards certain goals and styles of play.It's about more than the reward at the end of it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

GW1 had aesthetic grind from day one.

Agreed.

I never said it did'nt but compare the effect of grind back then to it's effect on the game now?

Exactly.

Skyy High · Jun 14, 2012, 04:00 PM // 16:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lasai

Dude, if you are going to quote me, don't snip to make some unrelated point. My post was about connectivity, the net, the "pipeline". It will effect large population activities, as it does now, always has, and will continue to. Wake up and realize that a pretty high % of the population is not on fiber optic, not on DSL, and is chugging along on Broadband. Increasing the number of packets sent along with real time mechanics is not going to work well for a lot of connections, and yet MMO Devs seem to ignore it.

Honest mistake, I thought you were talking about the development pipeline, and I didn't read your post closely enough.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fireflyry

Agreed.

I never said it did'nt but compare the effect of grind back then to it's effect on the game now?

Exactly.

Well, I just went through a comparison of the effects of grind then and now, but since you didn't seem to recognize that...

Then: if you want to get ANY weapon skin that isn't completely outclassed by a collector's weapon, you need to grind. If you want to mod ANY weapon to perfection, you're going to need a hundred platinum, at least.

Now: 95% of the weapon skins in the game are below 20k for a perfect, near perfect, or inscribable weapon. Mods, including inscriptions, are about 1k each, and the most expensive are 20k each.

Then: grind your little eyeballs out for ectos to make obsidian armor, or buy them at 15k each.

Now: same, except drops rates are up, there's an end chest with guaranteed ectos, and ectos are about half the price.

Then: collect as many skills as possible, because your power relative to the monsters was much lower, and build optimization before every area was a necessity. Areas would be filled with mobs that were resistant to certain effects or damage types, and "resistant" here could easily mean "will kill you before you can kill them".

Now: PvE skills, power inflation, and 7 heroes means that you can pretty much stick with one bar of 8 skills through the vast majority of PvE. PvE skills at one point required a bit of grind (but honestly, not really. Grinding to max Slayer so your Finish Him! does an extra 20 damage wasn't really necessary), but even that's gone now, since you'll max (or close to it) these skills just finishing the campaign you get them in.

Grind hasn't changed. It hasn't even gone up. What has changed is that a) little new content is coming in, so more and more players are piling up at endgame with nothing to do and little else to look forward to, and b) GW2 is coming out, and so the HoM is all that a lot of people care about. It's not like these people are grinding in place of playing; if they weren't grinding, they'd be shelving GW.

Ergo, the mantra of "skill > time" hasn't changed. It's just a fact that aesthetic grind was never a component of that mantra, and now aesthetic grind is all that's left for a lot of people. There's no "hypocrisy" here, is what I'm saying; there is nothing different between the HoM of today and the titles and rare weapons and armors of years past, except that more people care about the HoM because that's all that's left moving forward.

fireflyry · Jun 15, 2012, 02:39 PM // 14:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

Grind hasn't changed.

Of course it has.

Choosing to argue the relevancy of grind based purely on aestheic reward just detracts from the actual topic in order to make yourself sound correct.Just a couple of examples of what's changed since the "good old days":

Firstly:Many skill potencies are directly related to repetition of content and grind.You stated as much.I don't care how shiny someone's sword is but I do care if we are using the same skill yet theirs is vastly more effective and potent merely because they repeated the same mission 500 times.

You may right that off as "tiny" or link the mechanic to a one skill example.Many don't.Being subjective about that does'nt change the mechanics involved.

Secondly:Many areas, be it PvP or PvE, have preferential treatment based purley on rank/title.Unless you have repeated the same level/PvP area, etc 500 times and have the right tag beneath your name good luck getting into a group or even getting a look in.

As such reward from grind can be directly related to how a new player is treated/accepted and what areas, levels or PvP they can access.

Both points are imo valid and dictate that...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

Ergo, the mantra of "skill > time" hasn't changed.

...is now totally incorrect.

Sure the "old game...all that's left is HoM" is a totally sound argument.It's fact.The point being is what if the game had'nt changed it's philosophy and mechanics in such a way.Anyway I think the tangent is pretty irelevant if you re-read the OP.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

Well, I just went through a comparison of the effects of grind then and now, but since you didn't seem to recognize that....

lol

That's akin to saying:"No offense....but....".Then again I've been around here long enough to recognize your skill at cyclic debate so I'm happy to agree to disagree.

Good luck to you.

MithranArkanere · Jun 15, 2012, 11:29 PM // 23:29

You should check skill updates.

They have reduced so much the title requirements in PvE skills that you get the max effect in a single playthrough of the game, without dungeons, challenges, secondary quests or hard mode.
Just playing the plot.
And well, you should at least play the plot to get the benefit from the skills. As opposed as just farm it and buy the skills like you can do with the PvP ones.

Now all of my characters have the max effects in all of their skills, and they were way under the max before the update.
It took them over 4 years to make as it should have always been, but hey, they did it.

enter_the_zone · Jun 16, 2012, 12:53 AM // 00:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by fireflyry

Secondly:Many areas, be it PvP or PvE, have preferential treatment based purley on rank/title.Unless you have repeated the same level/PvP area, etc 500 times and have the right tag beneath your name good luck getting into a group or even getting a look in.

See, now the only places that has any real relevance are speed clears or PvP.... and if you're bitching that you have to grind titles to be able to make it into speed clear groups.... how to put this nicely..... screw you? Yeah, seems about right.... the whole point of SC's is to be fast BECAUSE you've spent the time elsewhere grinding titles...you could always have loaded a Spirit Spammer and farmed UW instead.

As for PvP, that's the people you're trying to group with requiring a certain title level as an indication of experience. If you have R8 and you suck, they'll kick you when you get back to town, title or no title. The barrier isn't part of the game, it's imposed by the players.

Oh, and I've done no speed clears at all, because that shit doesn't interest me. On the other hand I'm working on GWAMM for 3 accounts and the only pvp I do is JQ. And that has nothing to do with rank, I just lack the situational awareness and twitch reactions needed to be really decent at PvP, imo.

Aleta · Jun 16, 2012, 01:30 AM // 01:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by cosyfiep

I have goals for my characters, however, I dont really grind to get them...I play the game--I enjoy doing quests and mapping (yeah I know I am one of the few who enjoys hugging walls)....the HoM just gave me a better chart of goals. I am still doing the stuff I wanted to--not what I need for the HoM (if that were the case I would have gotten my f-ugly-ow armor long ago).
I enjoy playing by myself or with my hubby (who got me to buy the game so we had something we could play together without hundreds of others)....I will still be playing after gw2 comes out--its a TOTALLY different game (just about ONLY the name is the same).
so I am not worried, and if they decide to turn off the servers...then I will be able to think back on the past 7+ years and look at my screenshots folders and see how much time I spent ....playing a video game

lol that's pretty much how I feel. Been playing since almost the beginning and still play it. It's true that there is just something about it.

So when GW2 goes live I'll be playing both

fireflyry · Jun 16, 2012, 12:38 PM // 12:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

It took them over 4 years to make as it should have always been, but hey, they did it.

Great point.

Same could be said for 7 heroes I guess but any excuse to dumb the game down and let everyone c-space to GWAMM.The real hardcore "Grindwars" vets in my guild left ages ago exactly for such reasons.I recall one commenting that they should just give everyone a million ecto, automatic GWAMM, 50/50 and be done with it.

lol

Quote:

Originally Posted by enter_the_zone

the whole point of SC's is to be fast BECAUSE you've spent the time elsewhere grinding titles....

Exactly.

Direct cause and effect on both gameplay and the communities direction and motivations.