Curse

mrmango · Jul 29, 2012, 08:11 PM // 20:11

I agree it should be at least 50 gold zcoins.

akelarumi · Jul 29, 2012, 10:10 PM // 22:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Bulldozer

If the cost is prohibitive and really want a guild hall, why not join a guild that already has one? As a guild leader myself who won a sigil though PvP and single-handedly bought every upgrade for the G.H. I don't see why sigils need to be made easier, especially with the number of nearly empty guilds out there with halls. If anything, the number of guilds has gotten so large that it might be best to consolidate down to a smaller number anyway.

I disagree with you. There is a thing called freedom to do as you please. Given this is going to be a near dead game soon I hink that forcing a way of playing it onto people is wrong. I have a guild and a guildhall and im not activly recruiting. Even if im recruiting people should have the freedom to decide to join or decide to try and make their own guild. Who are you to decide there are too many guilds? If people want to do it (and are willing to pay the price) let them.

Ayuhmii Shanbwa · Jul 29, 2012, 10:29 PM // 22:29

lol, so many z coins for something that mostly was cheap

if you like to pay 50+ gold z coins, then give it to someone in exchange for 1 sigil

dont destroy other people's fun, cuz as i've seen, anet learned about that

so if someone wants to get or change GH, they should pay a fortune on it?
soon pvp will be mostly dead, not to mention the timezones with even less people due to GW2 and maybe other MMO's
cuz GW is old now, and only make stuff harder to get will shoo away people, as it gets boring to farm that many z coins for a simple change... which prolly wont mean much in august anymore

thats what i call elitism, some want the game to be hard, so they say everyone should suffer through the same

big "NO" to stuff becoming way harder to get like this and make people work hard just to get something simple
and (as said several times before) especially since GW is going to lose alot due to both its age and GW2 (and everytime more new MMO's pop out of the ground)

i doubt the little group staying in GW will like this attitude

1 tip: dont destroy other's fun and freedom

ps. dont overreact like some did with "should all expensive skins be given away too?" and such, cuz thats a totally different thing
it wouldnt be if all GH's had their own prices, but they were the same, as you only needed sigils

Wielder Of Magic · Jul 29, 2012, 10:40 PM // 22:40

There are loads of Guild Halls and loads of guilds at this point.
Guild Wars has the word Guild already in it, and encourages people to band together and form a guild.
A guild should have a guild hall.
I normally dislike most suggestions when it comes to dumbing something down or make something more easy to get, but in this case it makes sense.
From my experience it never was the sigil itself that made a guild hall a cost investment, but all the possible adds ( traders and the likes ) you could buy for your hall.
Therefore I think there should be more ways of getting sigils, and also that they should not cost millions of gold.
25 gold zaishen coins OR the equivalent in gold should suffice to get yourself a sigil.
Even for casual players that is not an unreasonable price.
Up the cost of possible adds for the guild hall if you need to balance out the total costs.
But it would be a shame if people could no longer create a guild hall because of a lack of pvp'ers.
Forcing people into a format they don't like ( pve people being forced to do pvp ) for the possible chance of getting a sigil from a chest is not a good way with player numbers lowering.
Alternatives should be looked at.

Premium Unleaded · Jul 30, 2012, 12:29 AM // 00:29

A guild hall was only ever needed so one could take part in gvg. That was the whole premise iof the progression system: win halls > get sigil > buy gh > move up to the next tier ie. gvg.

*lemming* · Jul 30, 2012, 03:23 AM // 03:23

I wonder if people whined about it in the first week when sigils went for $100+ on eBay.

Ayuhmii Shanbwa · Jul 30, 2012, 08:06 AM // 08:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wielder Of Magic

There are loads of Guild Halls and loads of guilds at this point.
Guild Wars has the word Guild already in it, and encourages people to band together and form a guild.
A guild should have a guild hall.
I normally dislike most suggestions when it comes to dumbing something down or make something more easy to get, but in this case it makes sense.
From my experience it never was the sigil itself that made a guild hall a cost investment, but all the possible adds ( traders and the likes ) you could buy for your hall.
Therefore I think there should be more ways of getting sigils, and also that they should not cost millions of gold.
25 gold zaishen coins OR the equivalent in gold should suffice to get yourself a sigil.
Even for casual players that is not an unreasonable price.
Up the cost of possible adds for the guild hall if you need to balance out the total costs.
But it would be a shame if people could no longer create a guild hall because of a lack of pvp'ers.
Forcing people into a format they don't like ( pve people being forced to do pvp ) for the possible chance of getting a sigil from a chest is not a good way with player numbers lowering.
Alternatives should be looked at.

why so many gold z coins for something thats mostly so cheap?
should anet now raise prices cuz its rare, prolly due to the almost dead pvp?

i'm not good at farming, yet i could buy many for a long time, so i think its best to make em 1 gold z coin at most. although cuz its not that much worth in the future due to GW2 being new AND GW being old, i think 1 silver z coin would be better

i doubt anyone would like having a guild without GH yet, if it was that expensive, except for the ones who enjoy grinding/farming so much

and saying it should be expensive, is just an excuse to let YOU do more, yet others suffer from it, while they just wanna check out what GH's are best

remember: everytime someone buys a sigil, its 1 less at the trader, but if it happens rarely that people buy them, and even more rare that people sell them to the trader, then they will be out of stock forever... and then anet would (cuz some of you say they should) make something barely obtainable due to lack of pvp (especially since its just 1 part of pvp people gotta do to get em), and thats a bad move toward the community... all that thx to some people on forums who dont need sigils or like to farm/grind all day

and forcing people into grind/farm would be a worse move
and dont count regular z coin rewards, cuz those are just an extra, and were added much later, so its an optional farm/grind, while many guilds could need a GH, or guilds wanting a new one

well, i hope Anet wont ever listen to the "elitism" like that, and make it a normal price.... the community makes everything overpriced anyway... unless you like farming/grinding all day, which not many people like in GW, as i've seen... some even leave GW cuz of some farming parts, i've seen that happen

Captain Bulldozer · Jul 30, 2012, 08:36 AM // 08:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by akelarumi

I disagree with you. There is a thing called freedom to do as you please. Given this is going to be a near dead game soon I hink that forcing a way of playing it onto people is wrong. I have a guild and a guildhall and im not activly recruiting. Even if im recruiting people should have the freedom to decide to join or decide to try and make their own guild. Who are you to decide there are too many guilds? If people want to do it (and are willing to pay the price) let them.

Freedom to do as you please is not now and never has been something that exists in Guild Wars (or any other game for that matter). You've always been at the whim of the dev's choices. It was decided early on that sigils should generally be achieved with team play or by people who can pay loads for them. Being able to buy them with untradable z-coins just encourages more 1 person guilds, which goes against the whole point of a guild.

Since the beginning of guild halls, they have needed to be obtained with a sigil. If you don't want to pay the cost of buying one with gold when its 100k, good luck buying most of the upgrades for it. Due to the relative lack of players in PvP these days, it probably wouldn't even be that hard for you to get 8-12 players together from your guild and play through Halls enough to either get one, or get someone else one they can sell to the trader (or you).

Daesu · Jul 30, 2012, 08:40 AM // 08:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Bulldozer

Being able to buy them with untradable z-coins just encourages more 1 person guilds, which goes against the whole point of a guild.

Who says they are untradable?

50 gold zcoin is already worth much more than 100k. 8 gold zcoins would be more appropriate.

akelarumi · Jul 30, 2012, 09:39 AM // 09:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Bulldozer

Freedom to do as you please is not now and never has been something that exists in Guild Wars (or any other game for that matter). You've always been at the whim of the dev's choices. It was decided early on that sigils should generally be achieved with team play or by people who can pay loads for them. Being able to buy them with untradable z-coins just encourages more 1 person guilds, which goes against the whole point of a guild.

Since the beginning of guild halls, they have needed to be obtained with a sigil. If you don't want to pay the cost of buying one with gold when its 100k, good luck buying most of the upgrades for it. Due to the relative lack of players in PvP these days, it probably wouldn't even be that hard for you to get 8-12 players together from your guild and play through Halls enough to either get one, or get someone else one they can sell to the trader (or you).

Z-coins have been tradable since jun 2th 2011. So my proposal (by setting a high price) actually means that you need a group of bout 8 people doing all zm, zb and zv's for bout 2 weeks. The second point your wrong is that you assume a sigil cost 100k. The main problem is that 99% of the time they are sold out.

As to others who have been discussing the amount of zcoins. I strongly think that adding the possibility of zcoins should be done very carefully. On one hand I think a guildhall should be available without doing a dead pvp format. On the other hand I want that dead pvp format to have a change of reviving. By taking away one of the last incentives there still is to play HA it's not only declaring the patient dead but also burn the corpse and say a prayer for its soul. so maybe 100-200 golden zcoins is too high a price. But 8 is too low imo. Making it possible to obtain a sigil outside of pvp doesn't mean it should be the easiest way imo.

tummlykins · Jul 30, 2012, 09:50 AM // 09:50

Some of the people in this thread are being ridiculous. This is clearly not working as intended - the system was designed to provide Sigils at the rate that the PvP format could produce them when it was constantly active. For one of the first time in the game's history this has changed - the format is no longer constantly active and the supply of something which is for the whole game is being cut off because one niche format is dieing off. Sigils weren't designed to be distributed in such small numbers. When GW2 launches the problem will be dramatically worse.

I just looked at the trader and he was offering to buy my sigil for 49k which I bought for 7k, but you can't buy one any more.

Personally I think it's time to change the source of sigils. Zaishen Coins seem the most obvious choice seeing as they are accessible to everyone in the game, can't be farmed as easily as other high end items (such as ecto) and one gold coin is worth more than 14k which is double the price sigils consistently sold for a couple years ago. Zaishen Coins are also going to suffer when GW2 launches seeing as many of the casuals earning them and selling them for HoM points won't be filling the market. The game is going to change dramatically in a couple of months time, solutions to current and continuing problems are going to need to take that into account. This game is for everyone who plays, not just those who can afford to pay 50 gold coins for a Guild Hall. A max guild in GW2 is going to be a lot more achievable through normal play than a basic guild hall would be at even one gold coin never mind 50, and that's before you consider the players supporting a guild in GW2 will be greater than the numbers supporting the average guild remaining after the great exodus that will happen over the next few months in GW1.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coast

keep it how it is, they shouldn't need to hand everything out on a silverplate and chew it too.

Someone who is exploiting the situation to make a quick buck is probably not the best to look at how to deal with the problem, you clearly don't have the community's best interests as your number one priority here. I don't think one gold coin is a silver platter and I hope you don't design a game, because if that's your definition of a silver platter no-one would buy your game.

A clear problem has formed here and it's only going to get worse. It's time to move the sigil source to something less dependant on a player starved format. The safest and fairest bet would be Zaishen Coins, but the Zaishen Chest, elite dungeon chests and maybe even strongboxes could be alternative options.

Let's also not forget that a Guild Hall is required for another PvP format. If you make them any harder to obtain, you are not only seeing the death of HA but are also creating a rock solid wall blocking any future people from joining in GvG. Let's try not to kill off every PvP format because some of us have no empathy for people who haven't amassed fortunes or have been playing as long as the rest of us. Some of these goals might seem reasonable when you've had thousands of platinum move through your account over the years, but when you've just started the game and you don't have anything of value, buying armour is going to be a problem (hell traders might run out of mats in the future) never mind buying skills and now some insane grind for Guild Halls. The bar for access of a Guild Hall has to be at a level that considered people who just purchased the game, not people who have been here for several years and don't have the start up costs everyone else has. Guild Halls are essential for a PvP format, they have to be accessible to everyone if you want that format to survive.

Coast · Jul 30, 2012, 10:41 AM // 10:41

It should only be avaible through winning the hall of heroes, its been like this for 7years.
If this is removed then u essentially take away a big part of the intensives for playing Heroes Ascent.
And if u want it to be achievable in zaishen coins then I think 15 or 20golden coins would be proper price tag for it(like the heavy pack).
This way people got a few options:
1 they get one for golden coins for a bit higher cost while being in pve-attitude.
2 they buy one from other players for prolly a bit cheaper then method 1 while still being in pve-attitude
3 they play the game how it was intended and they get one themselves by playing ha

Also: people never had any issues with them being 100k back in 2005 while 100k back then was a lot of money compared to 2012

Wielder Of Magic · Jul 30, 2012, 11:26 AM // 11:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ayuhmii Shanbwa

why so many gold z coins for something thats mostly so cheap?
should anet now raise prices cuz its rare, prolly due to the almost dead pvp?

i'm not good at farming, yet i could buy many for a long time, so i think its best to make em 1 gold z coin at most. although cuz its not that much worth in the future due to GW2 being new AND GW being old, i think 1 silver z coin would be better

i doubt anyone would like having a guild without GH yet, if it was that expensive, except for the ones who enjoy grinding/farming so much

and saying it should be expensive, is just an excuse to let YOU do more, yet others suffer from it, while they just wanna check out what GH's are best

remember: everytime someone buys a sigil, its 1 less at the trader, but if it happens rarely that people buy them, and even more rare that people sell them to the trader, then they will be out of stock forever... and then anet would (cuz some of you say they should) make something barely obtainable due to lack of pvp (especially since its just 1 part of pvp people gotta do to get em), and thats a bad move toward the community... all that thx to some people on forums who dont need sigils or like to farm/grind all day

and forcing people into grind/farm would be a worse move
and dont count regular z coin rewards, cuz those are just an extra, and were added much later, so its an optional farm/grind, while many guilds could need a GH, or guilds wanting a new one

well, i hope Anet wont ever listen to the "elitism" like that, and make it a normal price.... the community makes everything overpriced anyway... unless you like farming/grinding all day, which not many people like in GW, as i've seen... some even leave GW cuz of some farming parts, i've seen that happen

Yawn..
Even when for a change I am agreeing with your basic point you still manage to twist my point and call me elitist..
You really are a troll..

A price of 1 gold/silver coin is complete bullshit.
Despite the fact tha sigils should be obtainable in other ways then HA such a low price is complete nonsense.
That would make a guild hall cheaper then the equipment packs and on par with elite skill tomes!
Think before you post.
I think 20-25 gold coins or the equivalent in platinum is fair, it puts it above the equipment pack in terms of coins or cost, yet not out of reach of casual players. Since you can pay either zaishen coins or platinum you are not forced to grind the zaishen quests if you don't want to.
And accumulating money is a natural result of simply playing this game.
There is nothing wrong with having to do a bit of work to obtain something nice, which is my stance with most things in games.
But because a Guild is such a vital part of this game the barrier of getting it should be low enough for people willing to pursue it.
But there is a difference between putting a little bit of effort into it and simply being lazy because you do no want to accumulate 25 gold coins or ~ 200/250k.

To balance the fact that HA has a continuously diminishing stream of players, and to make sure the fact of getting sigils by trading zaishen coins or platinum is viable, I would remove the law that traders can only sell sigils they have bought from players. Allow the few traders that would sell the sigils to have their own supply that gets refreshed from time to time.

In response to Coast,
I understand your point, but when nobody will play HA in the future, it would mean that Guild Halls would no longer be possible to obtain.
Since Guilds are an important part of Guild Wars that would be unacceptable.
And iirc HA has never been played for the sigils ( except maybe in the beginning ), but for fame and perhaps that lucky rare drop from the hoh chest.

Winner · Jul 30, 2012, 11:37 AM // 11:37

HA is not dead, there are plenty of HoH wins every day. If you want a sigil you have 2 options: 1. play the game the way it was supposed to be played and win one for yourself. Or you can simply message the halls winners and ask them to sell you a sigil.
I'm also selling them for 100k each, I think it's more than a fair price since imo they're worth at least 20 ectos.

tummlykins · Jul 30, 2012, 12:06 PM // 12:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coast

It should only be avaible through winning the hall of heroes, its been like this for 7years.

That's an incredibly poor argument. The situation was dramatically different over the last seven years. HA was active and supply was fine. The situation is not the same. Refusing to change for the sake of staying the same without considering the changed situation the game finds itself in is foolish.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coast

If this is removed then u essentially take away a big part of the intensives for playing Heroes Ascent.

If you're playing HA for sigils the arena is already screwed. There are plenty of more profitable ways to play the game and this certainly isn't one of the primary reasons to play the arena and hasn't been for many years.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coast

And if u want it to be achievable in zaishen coins then I think 15 or 20golden coins would be proper price tag for it(like the heavy pack).
This way people got a few options:
1 they get one for golden coins for a bit higher cost while being in pve-attitude.
2 they buy one from other players for prolly a bit cheaper then method 1 while still being in pve-attitude
3 they play the game how it was intended and they get one themselves by playing ha

The game wasn't intended to have so few people in HA. This is a different environment and requires different thinking to what we had when the game was first designed and later redesigned. Zaishen Coins are not easy to obtain and getting 15 of them through normal play is a huge feat for one person, getting them through several people is a challenge in itself, getting enough people with access to the areas Zaishen quests take place in a guild farming them together. I think many of us overestimate the access to funds some of the entry level people have in this game. In a time when we need to be encouraging as many people into GvG as possible so it doesn't die, creating more barriers to entering GvG doesn't make any sense. I wouldn't be surprised if they removed sigils completely and made Guild Halls an affordable and flat platinum purchase.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coast

Also: people never had any issues with them being 100k back in 2005 while 100k back then was a lot of money compared to 2012

Some people didn't and some people did. The game is going to have to work much harder to encourage people to get into GvG. The access barrier presented by a GH is a stupid wall working against the game and it's community to keeping formats like GvG alive.

Coast · Jul 30, 2012, 01:12 PM // 13:12

ha needs these kinda of intensives, like it or don't.
also people who didn't wanne gvg in the past definatly won't wanne play it now.
and people who do gvg got enough sources to get the sigils.
Whats next, free crystallines for everyone?

drkn · Jul 30, 2012, 01:31 PM // 13:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coast

sold a few at 25ectos each yesterday

This should be the only post of yours in this thread, as each subsequent post bears the stigma of 'i have the sigils and i'm making loads of money from them', thus invalidating your 'arguments'. Which are rather poor anyway, as tummlykins noted.

Everyone that wants to keep the sigils at 100+k price totally forgets that with GW2 just around the corner, GW1 is in its decline, including its 'PvP scene' and general 'shinies value'. If there still are some newcomers who'd like to set up a new guild and get a guild hall, keeping old and now artificial 'challenges' for them is a way to only promote the 'old HA crew' which (1) has spare sigils for sale and (2) will steamroll said newcomers in HA, so that in the end they have to buy the sigils from the ones they've got stomped by.

It's not about how the game used to be, it's not about any moral principles, it's not about our hopes and wishes. Economy enters the scene and takes all the spotlight onto it, and keeping potential newbies away of the economy is a very bad thing in the long run, even to that economy itself. While the game is in its decline, it'll still stay out there and possibly some new people will roll it, even if only to experience the prequel of their new favourite GW2 in a few months.

Why? · Jul 30, 2012, 01:44 PM // 13:44

Look, if you don't want to play HA, you won't play GvG. It really is that simple. Any decent team of 8 should be able to win HA if it is really getting that empty. That means that anyone who really wants to play GvG can spend a day or two and win a sigil from HA. That is how it was meant to be. If you have zero experience in Guild Wars pvp, you will be embarrassed by jumping right into GvG. HA will help you get some experience into the difficulties and tribulations of GW pvp.

PvE players do not need a guild hall. Especially now with Embark Beach. It really serves no purpose. If you want a place for your guild to gather, pick one of the totally empty Embark Beach districts. I am sure there are many of them that never see a player.

akelarumi · Jul 30, 2012, 02:44 PM // 14:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winner

HA is not dead, there are plenty of HoH wins every day. If you want a sigil you have 2 options: 1. play the game the way it was supposed to be played and win one for yourself. Or you can simply message the halls winners and ask them to sell you a sigil.
I'm also selling them for 100k each, I think it's more than a fair price since imo they're worth at least 20 ectos.

Thank you,
At least your honest bout the fact that your misusing the situation to make money. Others shoul'd be as honest as you.

Captain Bulldozer · Jul 30, 2012, 02:50 PM // 14:50

1) It may well be that the game is in such a decline that a change to how sigils are gained becomes warranted. However, that's not up to us to decide. The live team will ultimately make that decision, so getting nasty at each other on guru isn't likely to have any real effect.

2) Guild Halls are almost entirely cosmetic. Some of you are treating it like a guild can not function properly without a hall, but that's not at all true. There are only a few primary functions of a hall... first as a meeting place for members of the guild. This function is easily accomplished by meeting somewhere else. The second function is for a quick and easy place to upgrade/sell/use your storage. Hell, I picked my guild hall specifically because it's the one whose spawn point is closest to the z-chest. This function is also easily served by other outposts. Thirdly, the NPC services area large money sink. This would be a more serious function to miss out on if it weren't for the fact that the GW economy is already flooded with wealth (these NPCs are only one time sunk costs anyway).

3) The problem with making one cosmetic item easier to get is that it opens a slippery slope. If guild halls are easier to get, who shouldn't armbraces be? Why should't voltaic spears (or any other skin for that matter) be sold for z-coins? Certainly buying a v-spear will become harder as the game declines in the same way as a hall, why should one be made easier to obtain and not the other (this is devil's advocate... not really my opinion)

4) Even if it was a good idea, is this really how you want the live team spending its time? GW no longer even has the resources to make a new festival hat and you want them to spend their time coding sigil changes? I for one would rather see the live team's time spent in better ways.