Curse

Lethorn Maeran · Sep 14, 2006, 06:51 AM // 06:51

Hey there...I would appriciate some advice..
I'm getting a new computer for Christman but I'm not sure what to get..Something for gaming of course but if someone could give me some tips, that'd be great. I have a budget of AUD$2,000.

Bowman Artemis · Sep 14, 2006, 07:08 AM // 07:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lethorn Maeran

Hey there...I would appriciate some advice..
I'm getting a new computer for Christman but I'm not sure what to get..Something for gaming of course but if someone could give me some tips, that'd be great. I have a budget of AUD$2,000.

Ok, these are threads I like, a decent budget and a system to build from the ground up. Here are my recommendations:

CPU: Intel Core2Duo E6600. - $495
Mobo: Asus P5B-Deluxe-WIFI 775 - $335
RAM: DDR2 1024MB(2x512M)PC6400 800Mhz Red Heatspreader G.Skill - $200
Hard Disk: Hitachi 200Gb SATAII 8M - $115
Case/PSU: Antec Top Quality Sonata II (Black) - $180
Graphics Card: GALAXY 7900GT 256meg DDR3 256Bit HDTV SLi Ready Dual DVI PCI-E - $425
Optical Drive: LG DVD16X+- Super Multi DVD Rewriter with Software(DUAL LAYER Black )
Total: $1805

All prices are in Australian Dollars.

The left over money can go into games or better RAM.

-Dan.

Lethorn Maeran · Sep 14, 2006, 12:57 PM // 12:57

Thanks

meerkats · Sep 14, 2006, 01:59 PM // 13:59

The system bowman has described is very good, they only change to it that i would suggest is to go for 2Gb of ram as this will provide you with some future proofing against Windows Vista and other games. Stay with the Gskill ram as they have risen to be a well known quality brand and the importer for australia are decent with support in the event of troubles down the track.

The system will run just about anything extremely well and you will be very happy with the performance.

Locutas · Sep 14, 2006, 04:09 PM // 16:09

Deffenatle get as much ram as you can..... It always helps

Mushroom · Sep 14, 2006, 06:17 PM // 18:17

I will give the same advice here that I do to everybody:

Go to your local small computer store, and see what they can do for you.

The biggest advantage is that you are working with people in your community. And you are keeping the money in your local community, as opposed to sending it off elsewhere. And if you have any problems, your support staff is a short drive or call away. These businesses want to keep you as a customer, and often rely on word of mouth as their best advertising.

In addition, they will sell you components that they have worked with and trust. And you can be sure that what you get is exactly what you want and need.

Mr D J · Sep 14, 2006, 10:31 PM // 22:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Locutas

Deffenatle get as much ram as you can..... It always helps

No it doesn't. The MAX load I ever get is only about 690 MB out of my 1000. 2 GB of RAM is useless right now unless you use dual monitors to do 10000 things at a time or you do video editing.

Mushroom · Sep 14, 2006, 11:06 PM // 23:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr D J

No it doesn't. The MAX load I ever get is only about 690 MB out of my 1000. 2 GB of RAM is useless right now unless you use dual monitors to do 10000 things at a time or you do video editing.

This is very true, and something I try to explain to people every day. Adding more RAM will not make your system any faster. And in some cases, can actually make it slower.

Just like anything else you add to a computer, RAM requires resources (CPU time) in order to be managed. The more RAM you add, the more CPU time is required. When your system does not have enough RAM, then you benefit because it frees up the need to access the hard drive. Add in to much, then you are simply wasting money and resources.

The best rule of thumb I have found for RAM performance is this:

PC-66 and lower: 256 MB
PC-100-PC-133: 512 MB
DDR: 1 GB
DDR2: 2 GB

Of course, this is for normal operations. Web browsing, word processing, and the like. Things like CAD, Sound & Video editing can benefit from a little more RAM. But then you run into the issue of RAM Bus Speed.

Older RAM is often greatly hampered by the slower bus speeds. This prevents the higher amounts from being used efficiently. And if it not efficient, you might as well not even have it.

The mistaken belief that more RAM made systems faster started in the days of Windows 95/98. Back then, most systems only had 8-16 MB. So of course, increasing to 32 or 64 MB made a performance boost. But with 95 and 98, once you hit 128 MB, it started to become an issue of diminishing returns. You could double it again to 256 MB, but the OS would really not use it, and you got maybe a 1% boost for the money. Much better to upgrade the CPU then the RAM at that point.

Eldin · Sep 14, 2006, 11:18 PM // 23:18

I won't give you advice on everything, but here...

RAM
I believe that 512MB RAM is the "casual" amount, but if you game even a little, 1GB is good (it's what I have, and surprisingly a fair amount of people still don't even have one gig). 2GB if you want to be prepared for future games.

Video Card
I know nothing of ATI, but if you are an Nvidia user, obviously get one of the high-end GeForce 7 cards. If you aren't a PCIe user yet, this is definitely a good opportunity to switch from AGP.

CPU
Core 2 Duo is where it's at right now. If you don't get double processors, you should get something with at least 2.80GHz or more...preferably 3GHz or more.

jesh · Sep 15, 2006, 12:06 AM // 00:06

I agree with the system recommended, esp. the CPU. I also agree with TWO gigabytes of ram. Whoever is trying to game with 1gb, go play Oblivion for me and record your FPS. It's not only needed for games of the future, it's needed now. Same goes for advanced war fighter, etc. For GW? Of course you don't need it. I often have a couple GW clients, Winamp, Photoshop, BitTorrent, and Firefox open with 12+ tabs. I need the 2gb of ram. You may not.

I also wish to suggest something that no one else has - get a sound card. Specifically, get a Sound Blaster XFi. Upgrading from a built in Nforce4 sound card to the XFi was the best 130 dollars I ever spent, and they're cheaper now. Not sure how much in AUD. Even if you only have lowly headphones for your computer, you *will* notice the difference.

Also some things that people normally skimp on - keyboard, mouse, monitor. This is how you interract with your computer. If you don't have these three things, high quality, and comfortable, chances are you won't enjoy your computer as much/at all, no matter how much FPS you're getting. A 15" CRT with plastic speakers and a 10 dollar keyboard only gets you so far. The key here is to buy what *you* like best. It is your computer, isn't it?

Power Supply - I don't know what comes with that Antec case, and frankly, on dial up I can't be bothered. It's very important with a high end system like that to have adequate cooling and power, which definitely means 500w+.
People often say that the CPU is the brain of the computer. If this is true, then the power supply is the heart. You're going to have nothing but instability with a power supply that isn't large enough to keep all those voltages as high as they need to be, and happily regulated.
Both Antec and Enermax make awesome PSs, as do OCZ and Raidmax.

Bowman Artemis · Sep 15, 2006, 12:33 AM // 00:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by jesh

I agree with the system recommended, esp. the CPU. I also agree with TWO gigabytes of ram. Whoever is trying to game with 1gb, go play Oblivion for me and record your FPS. It's not only needed for games of the future, it's needed now. Same goes for advanced war fighter, etc. For GW? Of course you don't need it. I often have a couple GW clients, Winamp, Photoshop, BitTorrent, and Firefox open with 12+ tabs. I need the 2gb of ram. You may not.

I also wish to suggest something that no one else has - get a sound card. Specifically, get a Sound Blaster XFi. Upgrading from a built in Nforce4 sound card to the XFi was the best 130 dollars I ever spent, and they're cheaper now. Not sure how much in AUD. Even if you only have lowly headphones for your computer, you *will* notice the difference.

Also some things that people normally skimp on - keyboard, mouse, monitor. This is how you interract with your computer. If you don't have these three things, high quality, and comfortable, chances are you won't enjoy your computer as much/at all, no matter how much FPS you're getting. A 15" CRT with plastic speakers and a 10 dollar keyboard only gets you so far. The key here is to buy what *you* like best. It is your computer, isn't it?

Power Supply - I don't know what comes with that Antec case, and frankly, on dial up I can't be bothered. It's very important with a high end system like that to have adequate cooling and power, which definitely means 500w+.
People often say that the CPU is the brain of the computer. If this is true, then the power supply is the heart. You're going to have nothing but instability with a power supply that isn't large enough to keep all those voltages as high as they need to be, and happily regulated.
Both Antec and Enermax make awesome PSs, as do OCZ and Raidmax.

That case comes with an Antec Smartpower 2.0 500w.

I was assuming that he had a decent monitor, keyboard and mouse, but I stayed under budget just in case.

I game with 1gb of RAM and so far have had no problems, but then again, I can't surf the net and use photoshop while I'm in the middle of playing a game. Also, you're running bittorrent, firefox and 2 GW clients on dial-up? Wow, that's impressive.

EDIT: Wanted to add. Ordinary RAM won't have a huge impact on frame rates, VRAM will, as will the video card.

Mushroom · Sep 15, 2006, 02:50 PM // 14:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by jesh

I agree with the system recommended, esp. the CPU. I also agree with TWO gigabytes of ram.

I also wish to suggest something that no one else has - get a sound card. Specifically, get a Sound Blaster XFi. Upgrading from a built in Nforce4 sound card to the XFi was the best 130 dollars I ever spent, and they're cheaper now. Not sure how much in AUD. Even if you only have lowly headphones for your computer, you *will* notice the difference.

As you mentioned yourself, the amount of RAM can also depend on what games you want to play. If GW is the most system intensive game you plan on playing, you really do not need more then 1 GB. And RAM is always something you can add at a later date. When I bought my current system, DDR 3200 was "bleeding edge", and cost an arm and a leg. So I bought 512k and was happy with that. Then last year after the RAM had dropped, I upgraded to 1.5 GIG, for less then my original 512 cost.

And while high ended sound cards are nice, their performance is also only as good as the speakers you plan on useing. Having a high-ended Audigy or XFi does you no good unless you hook them up to a $100+ speaker system. If you are content with $10-40 speakers, then that extra ability of the high-end card will do you no good at all.

In fact, if you want to get some great sound cheap, look around for the Audigy and Audigy 2 cards. These were state of the art only a few years ago, and are still among the best cards ever made. Yet because of the newer cards out, these are dirt cheap. I bought my current Audigy for $10, and am about to upgrade to an Audigy 2 for $25.

Both of these cards are excellent, and I also do professional sound recording and mixing on my computer. A lot of sound engineers still swear by these cards.

Tachyon · Sep 15, 2006, 03:04 PM // 15:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr D J

No it doesn't. The MAX load I ever get is only about 690 MB out of my 1000. 2 GB of RAM is useless right now unless you use dual monitors to do 10000 things at a time or you do video editing.

Sorry, but you're wrong there. I play Battlefield 2, and that requires 2GB to run smoothly. On max settings, the textures alone utilise 1.5GB of RAM. The same goes for FEAR, you try to play that on max settings with only 1GB of RAM installed!

Mushroom · Sep 15, 2006, 03:40 PM // 15:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azagoth

Sorry, but you're wrong there. I play Battlefield 2, and that requires 2GB to run smoothly. On max settings, the textures alone utilise 1.5GB of RAM. The same goes for FEAR, you try to play that on max settings with only 1GB of RAM installed!

But remember, this is a GW forum. And GW simply does not put much strain on RAM if you have over 512 MB. And once you reach 1 GB, you have more then enough for GW.

Unlike a lot of games (Doom 3, Fear, etc), GW simply does not stress system resources like the others you listed. By recommending people stick close to the "bleeding edge" of technology, it leaves a lot of people questioning what they have and what they should get.

It is akin to suggesting somebody get a Camaro to go to the corner store, or a $2k computer to play Solitaire. "Dream Machines" have their place, but very few of us ever get them. And this years "Dream Machine" is next years "Common System", and the year afterwards the "Bargain Basement".

When I built my current system in November 2004, it was uber-high end at the time (I did not build a machine for a customer that beat it until a few months ago). Socket 939 3500 Athlon 64, 512 Meg DDR RAM, 250 GB SATA hard drive, DVD Burner, 256 MB Radeon video card. Well over $1,700. Now, I can build the same system with an AM2 Athlon 3800, 1 GB DDR2 and a Radeon X1300 512 MB for under $1,000.

Bleeding edge has it's place. But I never recommend for a customer to build one unless they have a large pocketbook, and can appreciate what is going into it. For a game like GW, the things I read in here about SLI, $400 video cards, $150 sound cards, and gross amounts of RAM is often overkill in the extreme. Most people simply want to play the game and have it look and sound good. And they do not have to skip on next month's car payment just to get good hardware sufficient to play the game.

Tachyon · Sep 15, 2006, 03:51 PM // 15:51

Yeah, very true.

Although I was just pointing out how wrong the poster was for claiming that "2GB is usless right now" unless you do video editing, have quite a few apps running or use dual monitors. Like I said though, for some of the games that I, and many others, also play 2GB is required for a smooth gameplay experience.

BTW, I'd never use a Camaro to go to the corner shop. Have you seen the price of petrol over here?

Saying that though, I am thinking about getting an '84 Monte Carlo SS sometime in the near future.

Meols Green · Sep 15, 2006, 04:30 PM // 16:30

Wow.

To say 2gb ram is useless is shocking to me. Im desperate to upgrade from a gig to 2gig, because of the games i play. More than a gig for GW / older games / web browsing etc etc is yes, not needed, and >2gb isnt used by windows anyway.

BF2 = Needs 2gig to run on full, i have a 7800GS, and it lags on full textures (i still use it though lol)
F.E.A.R = Try using Soft shadows and max textures without 2gig, it wont happen.
Oblivion = Obvious, WAY ahead of its time, not even 2gig with help this game run smoothly really... no hardware curently out can run this on MAX settings with 30fps constant in all areas.
PREY = Again, like FEAR, Utilises 2gig to run on max (although i run it on max now with high fps...does drop though when it has to swap some textures)

This is just how i see it,i also see how you mean that 1gig is by far enough for Guild Wars and games like it.

Again, just my 2c

Mushroom · Sep 15, 2006, 05:04 PM // 17:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meols Green

Wow.

To say 2gb ram is useless is shocking to me. Im desperate to upgrade from a gig to 2gig, because of the games i play. More than a gig for GW / older games / web browsing etc etc is yes, not needed, and >2gb isnt used by windows anyway.

Semi-right.

XP Home can address a maximum of 2 GB RAM.
XP Professional can address a maximum of 4 GB RAM.
XP Pro 64 bit can address a maximum of 128 GB RAM.

From what I am reading about Vista, it will be following the XP Pro RAM limits. Vista final should address 4 GB in 32 bit mode, 128 GB in 64 bit mode. This is a restriction placed on 32 vs. 64 bit operating systems, not by Microsoft itself. It is akin to a lot of the RAM restrictions we saw in the past. While MS can try and predict what future needs will be, they can't predict everything.

After all, when DOS could address 640k directly, that seemed like more then you would ever need. Especially considering most computers of the time only had 64k RAM.

And also, RAM need increases over time because newer programs are written that can take advantage of more RAM. When I first started to do video editing (1999), my system only had 64 MB and did it just fine. And in 2003 I built a high-ended video editing system for Nickelodean TV that only had 512 MB RAM (Avid system, 5 120 GB SCSI drives, 2 Athlon 1800MP processors). While it seems rediculously low today, that was all bleeding edge for the time.

I have been in this industry for over 20 years, and have seen "Dream Systems" come and go. To me it only seems a few years ago that everybody was talking about VooDoo and VooDoo 2 being "tha bomb". I remember friends buying these cards for $150. Now, we have them sitting in the $5 box in the front of the store. And next to them are the 2 GB SCSI II drives I paid $200 for in 2000. And those 1 GHz Duron, Athlon and Pentium III chips that were $250+ each are now available for $20.

And those "state of the art" K6-2, K6-3, and Pentium through Pentium II processors? We do not even bother anymore, we just throw them in the trash. Along with EDO RAM, 33.6 and 42k modems, 200 watt power supplies, AT cases, under 16X CDRW drives, and any hard drive that is not at least 2 GB in size.

Meols Green · Sep 15, 2006, 08:03 PM // 20:03

Of course of course, but what you said backs up the case that 2gb ram is indeed needed now-a-days.

you say technology is advancing rapidly, which of course, it is. The 7800GS card i just bought for £200 will be worth £90 in a year..and now, RAM is coming in sets of 2gb, within 6months its going to be the default amount, as 1gig has become.

I mean, look at the likes of the new Conroe CPU's... the 6800 extreme conroe (if i recall) is currently top of the line, but again in 6 months - 12 months it will be high-mid range...

Ghozer · Sep 16, 2006, 02:22 PM // 14:22

Personally I prefer the AMD and ATI Options, this is the spec of my newest machine (about 1 month ago)

CPU: AMD Athlon 64 X2 4200+ (Dual Core, 64bit, 2.2Ghz per core)
RAM: 3GB DDR 400Mhz (Corsair XMS Pro)
HDD: 200GB SATAII - Seagate Barracuda (16mb 7200rpm)
GFX: 2x ATI Radeon x1900XTX 512mb GDDR3 in Cross Fire Mode
Sound: Sound Blaster X-Fi Fatal1ty
Added a 19" Widescreen TFT to that list, as well as using my old 17" TFT With it, also got other things such as Ideazon Zboard, and Razer Diamond back..

I placed my 2 old hard drives in as I diddnt want to waste them (2x 120Gb Seagate Barracuda 4mb ATA)

I opted for the Socket939 version of the CPU / Motherboard, mainly because not alot is known about AM2 based systems and its stabilty yet, Pretty much like the 939's had issues with memory on release..

I will be upgrading in 8 months to a year, to go for AM2, Then I can go for DDR2 also..