Curse

Melody Cross · Jan 02, 2008, 10:40 PM // 22:40

What do I need for the next big one?

I was listening to some guys in vent the other night and it became quickly apparent that I’ve fallen below the curve where computer parts are concerned. I’ve been daydreaming about building a new system for a few months. I’ve been putting off a rebuild waiting for the next big jump from Intel, but the buzz is that they are going to slow down now. This is probably the best time for someone like me to build a new system. After my stint at eavesdropping, however, I’m worried I might not get something that can keep up for long. So, I’d like to show the system I want to build to you guys and get your opinions on it, or what I should change before I start making purchases to get what I want outa this thing. Guru gave me some good advice on my last upgrade and I’m hoping yall can deliver the same magic yet again.

The system I was going to build:

Intel DX38BT Motherboard (socket 775)
Intel Core 2 Quad Q6600 Processor 2.40GHz OEM (8MB cache)
450 for both in a bundle but…I don’t know if the board will keep up with tech

XFX GeForce 7950 GT Video Card - 550M, 512MB DDR3, PCI Express, SLI Ready, (Dual Link) Dual DVI, HDTV, Video Card
170 for 1 atm

Ultra 1024MB PC3200 DDR 400MHz Memory
60 (just 1 right now I’ll move my half gigs around so I have 2 gigs total, then upgrade as I need to)

Thermaltake Silent 775D CPU Fan
30…kinda hard to find a good OEM fan nowadays. Go figure

Ultra Black Aluminus ATX Mid-Tower Case with Clear Side, Front USB, Firewire, Audio Ports and Ultra 700-Watt XVS Power Supply
150 for bundle

Cooler Master 120MM Blue LED Silent Sleeve Bearing Case Fan (2-Pack)
20

Miscellaneous
New hard drive(s) probably
OCZ Thermal paste
Sound card (Whatever wally world has thats compatible

)

And that puts me a little under 1k for everything. I’m getting the monitor free from a friend because he’s upgrading to the latest greatest (AGAIN) and is tired of me goofing around with a 9 year old CRT EV700 I got from Gateway.

Some of the specific things I want to do and learn this go around:

I want a 64-bit compatible system for running Vista once it’s worth running, but I’m not changing from my 32-bit XP Pro until the software Vista uses (and the OS) are actually worth my time. So what I get needs to be able to run both 32-bit XP and 64-bit. Should i wait for the yorkfields to come out before I mess with any of this?

I’ve considered using water-cooled heatsinks in the past, but am leery if they are still the cantankerous monsters to put together that they were 3 years ago.

The equipment I think I’ll need for the upgrade:

Core2 or quad processor and a heatsink that will let me overclock the hell outa either when I want to. I’d like a really good dual core now that I can give to someone later when I upgrade to a cheap quad core later (that’s usually how these things go, in my experience). TBH, I’ve yet to meet a process my 3.0 can’t run well. It’s all the other parts that have trouble. (250-350 preferred, but I’ll go higher[much higher] for quad if it means I don’t have to upgrade for a longo time)

A motherboard that can keep up with new peripherals and cards as they come out over the next (four?) years. I prefer intel manufacturer boards because I’ve had some horribad experiences with off-market manufacturers in my first 2 system builds. I want an easy to navigate BIOS that won’t be a pain in the rear, and Intel has always delivered on all fronts while intel compatible…always missed something. If it’s a brand name to build quality stuff I know like ASUS or something, I might be persuaded to give off-market one more shot, but direct from intel boards are my preference (200-300 range, I hope, but if I splurge anywhere, its here).

A solid video card that does NOT SOUND LIKE A JET ENGINE when overclocked (and then stays that way when you turn off overclocking). I’d like to try nVidia this go around. All I ever hear is how much better nVidea is over ATI chipsets, but ATI has always seemed to offer more bang for the buck. Because of that, I’ve been an ATI fan since the card wars started. Here’s your chance folks: find an nVidia Cross-fire like card setup that will blow my mind but doesn’t have an ATI equivalent for half the price and CONVERT ME! If I can get the card piecemeal, so much the better since I’m on a budget (I’ll go as high as 400 here at the start. As I understand crossfire, you can have 1 card for a good long time, then upgrade simply by buying another of the same or a compatible type)

I don’t know if my RAM will function on the new systems or not. I’ve got 2 half-gig sticks running in dual channel atm and even Hellgate is running semi-okay (slow, but I think my processor is powering through it the low memory cap). If I can keep that I only really need another gig to bump things up for now. Still, if anyone knows where I can get some exceptionally good 1-gig sticks on the cheap, that’d be a lucky find imo.

New case, preferably a mid-tower with slots for large (120mm) fans front and back, and I’d rather not cut a hole for the side intake. The case I have right now is noisy aluminum. I don’t particually like noisy aluminum, and most of the people complaining about my heavy background noise in vent obviously don’t either. I want a quiet case that doesn’t cast an arm and 2 legs.

A power supply that will keep up with energy needs as the systems grows.

I don’t want to spend too much more than $1000 on everything, which should give me a middle of the market system that I can upgrade with new cards and processors.

A friendly reminder: Please don’t turn this into your personal wishlist for the greatest computer you could build. Stick to the 1k budget; I can’t go over much unless I want to spend a year waiting for parts to build this critter.

Thank in advance

GGs

Melody Cross · Jan 03, 2008, 07:25 PM // 19:25

Lots of people looking, but not so many answers. Hope I didn't upset anyone

maybe if I cut my questions down to size so they're more managable, I will get more replies

Okay, query number the first: The card I am thinking of getting is an SLI ready XFX GeForce 7950. I understand that nVidia 8800s are recommended for dx10. Will a pair of SLI cards be able to run be able to run dx10 without problems, or do I still need to upgrade the card to an 8800?

Thanks in advance

GGs

Cataclysm · Jan 03, 2008, 08:24 PM // 20:24

7-series cards will not run DX10, no matter what. DX10 is more than pretty lights, it requires hardware designed for it. A 8000 GT is almost 1/2 the price of a 8800 Ultra and offers around 80% the performance. I'd get a 8800 GT for $300 instead of dual 7950s. AFAIK, dual 7950s will be faster than a 8800 GT, but not DX10 compatible.

400 MHz RAM is a little slow.

The Penryn processors from Intel are coming out soon. Wait for them. They'll be really cool.

http://www.pcguide.com/vb/forumdisplay.php?f=9 <-- These guys are awesome.

tijo · Jan 03, 2008, 11:09 PM // 23:09

Agreed, either get a GeForce from generation 8 or w8 till the next generation of video card hits the market.

Same for the processor, intel are due to release their new generation, and i'll bet that AMD will come up with something interesting soon enough too.

400MHz RAM is slow, but if you find that you can't afford faster RAM, just make sure that your motherboard can handle faster1000MHz RAM that way, you cna always upgrade to faster later.

Melody Cross · Jan 04, 2008, 01:57 AM // 01:57

TY for the advice. I will look at the mobos specs and make sure it can handle 1000MHz ( think it can, its supposed to support DDR3). Where can I get an 8800SLI card at though?

Why_Me · Jan 04, 2008, 02:27 AM // 02:27

RAM slots are not backwards compatible, you wont be able to use ddr2 in a ddr3 motherboard (unless, of course, it has both types of slots), so forget about ddr, your most likely going to need new ram if you want a mobo that can handle C2D or C2Q. Look into the gigabyte and asus motherboards, both are exceptional quality and you will most likely be able to find a mobo that fits your needs for around 150$, leaving that extra money to buy ram (you can pick up 2 gigs of ddr2 800, 4-4-4-12, at around 75$ if not less).
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813121090&Tpk=Intel%2bDX38 BT
this is the mobo you were going to get^ yes, its a ddr3, and its supported speed is 1333mhz

Cataclysm · Jan 04, 2008, 02:32 AM // 02:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melody Cross

TY for the advice. I will look at the mobos specs and make sure it can handle 1000MHz ( think it can, its supposed to support DDR3). Where can I get an 8800SLI card at though?

www.Newegg.com is always a great place to shop for PC parts.

Amei Leng · Jan 04, 2008, 02:49 AM // 02:49

There already XP patches being made to use DX10 and 7xxx cards.

Melody Cross · Jan 04, 2008, 05:30 AM // 05:30

While I'd rather splurge on the mobo, A good video card combination ranks #2 on the list of things i need to get my hands on.

XFX GeForce 8800 GTS Video Card - Alpha Dog Edition 512MB DDR3, PCI Express 2.0, SLI Ready, (Dual Link) Dual DVI, HDTV, Video Card=$ 350 atm (and a really kewl name...Alpha Dog Edition *giggles*)

I do believe I've found a video card i will be happy with for a long time, and upgrading later will give me a chance to work with SLI in a year or two

(query: do i have to get the EXACT same card, or another SLI compatible? I think it would be neat if you can your upgrade card is better than your original, and then you can just jump up one card at a time to keep up with graphics needs, but i'm clueless about SLI tech)

As for memory: Ultra 1024MB PC6400 DDR2 800MHz Memory is selling at tigerdirect (they have brick and mortar stores nearby in my state, so I can grouch to their face if something goes horribly wrong

) for $35 a stick.

I've been looking around on my own as well and am concerned that a 700W power supply will not meet the needs of all these new parts. Should I scrub the case/pws bundle?

450 for CPU/mobo bundle
420=total cost of Guru suggested parts atm
150 for PSU/case
20 fans
1040 for the ubbles. I was expecting to go overbudget some, so don't be shy if there is something I really need to grab or if there is a part that I should consider dropping for something else.

Thanx for the feedback

GGs

Cataclysm · Jan 04, 2008, 05:59 AM // 05:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melody Cross

(query: do i have to get the EXACT same card, or another SLI compatible? I think it would be neat if you can your upgrade card is better than your original, and then you can just jump up one card at a time to keep up with graphics needs, but i'm clueless about SLI tech)

I believe they must have the same core only. An 8800 Ultra will run in SLi with a 8800 GT or 8800 GTS but not a 8600 or 8400. I might be wrong though.

Musei Karasu · Jan 04, 2008, 06:28 AM // 06:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cataclysm

I believe they must have the same core only. An 8800 Ultra will run in SLi with a 8800 GT or 8800 GTS but not a 8600 or 8400. I might be wrong though.

I have read that the core is the only thing that needs to match, but to be honest, I've only seen same card so I sort of assumed there was a reason. Likely something like ease of install or something of the sort. I imagine that install is a bear if they're not the same card. Compatibility and such.

Lurid · Jan 04, 2008, 08:49 AM // 08:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amei Leng

There already XP patches being made to use DX10 and 7xxx cards.

No, there aren't. There was only one project going to do so, but it sank like a stone.

Buy a Penryn (End of January) imo, chipset wise grab a P35. Its currently the best available imo. Intel SLI blows btw, the 680i chipset is a joke, and 790i is a bigger one.

Don't skimp on the PSU, its by far the most important component. Newegg has some Crucial Ballistix DDR2 667's @ $45 for 2GB (2 x 1024MB). I own these and enjoy my set. If you're into overclocking they're D9's which are the shit.

You only have to have the same core, however SLI is really a crutch unless you're running whatever the top of the line is at the time, and it only makes sense then under these circumstances:

1) You have more money than you have sense.
2) You are benchmarking.
3) You have some insanely large monitor.

Whatever card has the lowest speed, thats what the other card will downclock to. Btw, 8800GT > 8800GTS, unless its a G92 core'd GTS. In which case the GTS is slightly better, but like $50 more...so yea not worth it. Get an EVGA 8800GTS 512MB (EVGA because their warranty is amazing...) they can be had for around $270 if you look.

EDIT - That Ultra PSU is garbage, do yourself a favor and avoid it like the plague. The only good Ultra PSU's are Channelwell units and even then it sonly on their higher end models, for the most part just avoid it. Oh and the onboard sound > most cheap sound cards. If you want a pretty good cheap card for music, look into the Chaintech AV-710. Which is around $20 iirc.

N E D M · Jan 04, 2008, 10:53 AM // 10:53

case/PSU - you can get a cooler master elite 330 case for about 30$ - Great value - I just got one-
Then get a good psu seperately. PSU's packaged with towers are generally inferior quality.
ALSO - make sure of how many IDE connectors your MOBO has - found out the hard way the new mobo i bought had only 1 on it - a hasle if you have 2 cd drives and 2 non sata hard drives

Melody Cross · Jan 04, 2008, 11:42 AM // 11:42

If i don't get SLI, there's much less reason to get the mobo/CPU combo I was thinking of. So...should I just bite the bullet and get a Bad-Axe?

But...I don't want to hold off for too long on getting started *cough*AGP 9800 makes me cry every day*cough* and mobo/new video card HAS to be the first step(physically I'm in a catch 22. i can't upgrade the mobo without replacing the video card; can't upgrade the card without a new mobo) even if most of my other stuff will run on it (I'll still need RAM at the least, since mine is obsolete. My SATA drives should transfer, but my 3.0 P4 is gone).

I don't want to skimp on anything, really, but I have a budget for this preliminary re-build (I don't have much sense, but my money is even less

). i need a good base to start off of. Something versatile enough to keep up with technology over the long run (so far, I've managed to average 4-5 years between overhauls and keep my platform competitive).

Thanks for the feedback

GGs

combatchuck · Jan 04, 2008, 01:10 PM // 13:10

The Core2 Quad is a good choice. Going for a non-SLI motherboard will save you money and headaches. Dual 7950 GT would be a waste, IMO, because their performance and features are eclipsed by newer cards that are cheaper.

Oblivion is, without a doubt, one of the most stressful games to test a computer with, even today. It will highlight performance deficiencies like a spotlight. According to Tom's Hardware (here for SLI tests), a pair of 7950 GT's will get 17 fps in Oblivion, 1920x1200, noAA, 8xAF, max quality, HDR enabled. A pair of 7950 GX2's (that's 4 7950 cores) will get a whopping 21.7 fps. A single 8800GTS with 320 MB of memory gets 20.9 fps on the same test. A single 8800 ultra gets 30.5.

The cost of each setup from Newegg:
Using the very first card on each page.

Dual 7950 GT: $379.98
Dual 7950 GX2: (Can't find it anywhere reputable)
Single 8800 GTS 320 MB: $219.99
Single 8800 Ultra: $659.99

From this list, my suggestion would be the GTS 320 MB. But, there's a video card not listed in Tom's VGA charts. It's an 8800 GTS with 512 MB of RAM, based on the newer nVidia G92 core, with 128 stream processors (as opposed to the 96 in the G80-based 8800 above). It reportedly gets an average of 56 fps in Oblivion at 2048x1536 at Ultra-High settings. What's more, it's even cheaper on Newegg than the pair of 7950 GT above, at more than three times the performance: $359.99

Edit: I guess I should read my sources more carefully. That is an 8800 GT, which uses the same core as the new GTS. However, the performance should be nearly identical, as the only tangible difference I can see between the 2 cards is that the GT comes with 640 MB, and the GTS comes with 512. Further study

I recommend buying the G92-based 8800 GTS. Here is a list of all available versions on Newegg.com.

I would also suggest getting at least 2 gigs of RAM, it is a minimal cost increase over 1, and you won't be disappointed. In reality, get as much RAM as you can afford.

Melody Cross · Jan 04, 2008, 01:42 PM // 13:42

combatchuck, thank you for the very informative rely. I've rather resigned myself to the fact that jumping from ATi to nVidia will be a big enough step atm, so a single card will do nicely. I like the specs of the card you recommend (and the price) so that is probably what I will get.

But on closer inspection of the Intel BX, it only supports 800 MHz RAM speed. The other mobo I wanted to get only says it supports DDR3, which remains quite high in price for what you appear to get.

Everything I've build before always revolved around the motherboard. Getting a good one meant a scalble computer that could be tweeked upward for years before it reached its ceiling, and then played there for a few more before the technology became obsolete.

I only ever use intel boards now. they just do everything I want, when i can find that one super good one.

What is the best intel mobo that I can get (something that I can start out with a small processor and build and build and build) in my price range? Every time I think I have one picked, I find a flaw an hour or day later.

Thank you all for the replies

GGs

combatchuck · Jan 04, 2008, 03:35 PM // 15:35

Yeah, DDR3 is pretty future-proof, but you will be paying the early-adopter's tax. I think that, at this point in time, DDR2 is perfectly sufficient. You can get DDR2 1066 for around half the price of DDR3 1066. The price of DDR3 just goes up from there. It's all your call, though. If you want to go with the new standard in this time of ever-changing standards, that's up to you.

As far as a scalable motherboard, you're pretty safe with Intel, I think. Maybe wait a little bit for the X38 chipset to come down in price, that seems to have all the features you want. It also supports DDR2 and DDR3, so you'll have a choice there. If you absolutely must buy now, you can buy an X38 board but they seem to hover around the $300 mark. A P35 board would also support DDR3, and they go around $150-200. The difference between the two is PCI-express 2.0. The X38 has it, the P35 doesn't. You won't see much performance difference today, as the video cards today are still 16x.

Lurid · Jan 04, 2008, 08:18 PM // 20:18

The Bad-Axe is a crossfire motherboard, which means that you are paying more for it simply being so. If you don't intend to use CrossFire, then its a waste of money. Getting it "in case you decide to" is also a waste of money, because chances are very high that you never will, or that when you decide to its not a good idea.

As far as chipsets go either X38 or P35, anything else is a waste of money at the moment. If you're into tweaking, then I reccomend the DFI series. Namely the P35-T2RL "Blood Iron" its a great budget board that consistently hits 475 - 500 FSB.

Quad cores in gaming...you see no difference in 99% of games that are available today. A fast dual or even single core (without multi-tasking) is just as good for this purpose. Therefore I would reccomend (If gaming is your primary concern) to pick up a 45NM Penryn dual core. The Penryn are on average 5% - 10% better than their Conroe / Allendale counterparts, run cooler, and on average overclock better. If you don't want to wait / don't think thats something you want, then pick up an E2140 IMO and clock the shit out of it.

My HTPC uses one sitting at 3Ghz and stock voltage, and anyone saying you can't game on it has never tried it. CPU bottlekneck from cache is next to non-existant.