Curse

Ariena Najea · Jul 18, 2009, 09:39 PM // 21:39

My poor computer can't handle much anymore, and I'm getting 10-15 FPS in Guild Wars at lowest settings, and Team Fortress 2 crashes after <5 minutes. Time to get a new one methinks.

I have an odd situation, since I'm not sure if I want a Laptop or Desktop. Fortunately it looks like I'm going to get some extra money on top of what I have allocated, however, this donor insists that building a desktop is a terrible idea, and is unlikely to understand the situation unless I give her a direct cost comparison of two nearly identical machines, one built and one bought. I already have a laptop, an old G3 Powerbook running OS10.4 that suits most of my needs for school, but it would be nice to have my more powerful machine be portable, so that I don't always have to work in my dorm room.

Requirements:

Budget is <$1000, I have functional keyboard, mouse, and monitor, etc
Be able to run games (TF2, GW, FF14 perhaps) and CAD software well with other programs open
Hardware must last for 4+ years, minor upgrades are acceptable
Be somewhat expandable in case it needs to last a year or two longer
Be able to be powered on all the time
Quiet running, no loud fans?
500GB+ 7200RPM HD
4GB+ memory
- Laptop specific:
- 15"-17"
- 3-4+ hour battery life (not while gaming)
- Desktop specific:
- Attractive case (Antec 300 is perfect)
- 2+ USB ports on front of case

I've been eying the Computer Parts List for about a year now, and I notice that it has not yet been updated for July. I lack the knowledge to make a good build, so I'm at a loss between my three options. I don't know what desktop companies (if any) to trust for decent components, although I know a little bit more about laptops and came up with a list of ones that would work. Here are some that looked decent from Acer, Toshiba, and Asus:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16834115540
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16834220528
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16834220560

So, basically I need a suggestion (even if it's not specific components just numbers and such) for a few computer builds from $500-$700-$1000, and for someone to look over my laptop selections and tell me how much I fail. I won't be buying the computer for a minimum of two weeks, so individual sales aren't as important as price ranges.

Thank you!

Elder III · Jul 19, 2009, 12:28 AM // 00:28

If you already have a laptop that will work for you to take to classes etc. then there is no reason not to get a desktop now. There are many benefit's to having a desktop (I'm thinking you know them already) and the only advantage of a laptop is portability - that's taken care of if you already have a serviceable laptop for class notes etc.... One thing you should try to explain to the lady involved is that buying a laptop when you have the option to go the other route is like throwing money in the toilet and flushing it away. Laptops have very little future upgrade room and are prone to dying much more quickly than a well built desktop. Laptops have poor ventilation/heat dissipation and we all know that heat is what usually kills computers.

Also with a desktop you can add a little here or there for the next decade and still have a decent PC - buy a laptop and it's a paper-weight in 5 yrs (if it lives that long).

In regards to the choices you have so far for lappies - I noticed that they all have screwball screen resolutions - something that may be a problem for older games and if you are using CAD or other like programs you may want a more standard resolution as well.
The second laptop (9300) will likely lag with newer games and may be borderline for extensive CAD work - dependent on the rest of your system and the resolution. I would wait on getting any laptop with a 220M chipset - they are so new that there is precious little info about them readily available .... they may be good but I would personally let someone else test them out first.

I'll post my thoughts on a desktop build for you abit later. XD

Espadon · Jul 19, 2009, 03:43 PM // 15:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ariena Najea

I give her a direct cost comparison of two nearly identical machines, one built and one bought.

Not sure what exactly you're comparing there but be aware notebook and desktop parts are not comparable at all whatsoever [except for that 2500$+ Clevo that runs on an i7]. Desktop parts are much more powerful than their laptop contemporaries. If you feel your G3 is fine, stick with it and get a desktop as Elder recommends. If your friends gather a lot of weekend LAN parties, a boutique laptop [midrange models are actually much better power/price compared to "name brand"] will work excellently.

dilan155 · Jul 19, 2009, 03:55 PM // 15:55

get a desktop since you already have a laptop, the desktop will have about 2x the power as the laptop at much lower cost, as well as the fact that laptops will bite you in the arse when you try to upgrade them, specially GPUs, meaning you cant upgrade them, in most cases at least. if your gonna build it yourself, then your gonna save a bit here and there. get about 4-6 gigs of ram, anf either GTX 260 core 216 or a Radeon 4870, as for CPU your probably not gonna fit a core i7 in there with that budget get a nice core 2 duo like E8400.

Espadon · Jul 19, 2009, 04:01 PM // 16:01

Definitely, the laptops with upgradeable MXM slots are pretty much all over $1000.

Also since I think MXM 3.0 is coming out soon there isn't going to be much of a upgrade future for current MXM2.0 laptops [oh my poor 8662 T_T].

Ariena Najea · Jul 19, 2009, 04:13 PM // 16:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Espadon

Not sure what exactly you're comparing there but be aware notebook and desktop parts are not comparable at all whatsoever [except for that 2500$+ Clevo that runs on an i7]. Desktop parts are much more powerful than their laptop contemporaries. If you feel your G3 is fine, stick with it and get a desktop as Elder recommends. If your friends gather a lot of weekend LAN parties, a boutique laptop [midrange models are actually much better power/price compared to "name brand"] will work excellently.

Sorry, I meant that I would need to compare the specs/price of a pre-built Desktop with an assembled one, separate from laptops.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dilan155

get a desktop since you already have a laptop, the desktop will have about 2x the power as the laptop at much lower cost, as well as the fact that laptops will bite you in the arse when you try to upgrade them, specially GPUs, meaning you cant upgrade them, in most cases at least. if your gonna build it yourself, then your gonna save a bit here and there. get about 4-6 gigs of ram, anf either GTX 260 core 216 or a Radeon 4870, as for CPU your probably not gonna fit a core i7 in there with that budget get a nice core 2 duo like E8400.

Would you suggest going DD2 or DD3 RAM? I'm sure I'll need to upgrade in a few years, and I know that DD3 has become a little cheaper in the last few months. For the video card, I understand Sapphire is a good brand to get ATI chipsets from?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Espadon

Definitely, the laptops with upgradeable MXM slots are pretty much all over $1000.

Also since I think MXM 3.0 is coming out soon there isn't going to be much of a upgrade future for current MXM2.0 laptops [oh my poor 8662 T_T].

That's good to know, I'd be really upset in a couple years if none of the newer graphics cards were even supported...

Espadon · Jul 19, 2009, 10:54 PM // 22:54

If you or someone you know and trust can build a desktop, definitely go for that. It's not unknown that a lot of brandnames will use lesser quality hardware that goes under the same name as the "real thing" just to maximize profit margins. Buying the stuff yourself guarantees you're getting top notch components while saving yourself from markups and assembly costs. Of course you only have yourself to answer to if it doesn't light up but if you make sure you follow the instructions and wear an antistatic bracelet assembling a computer is almost foolproof these days.

Elder III · Jul 20, 2009, 01:17 AM // 01:17

Potential Desktop Build:

PSU: I like OCZ for quality power supplies at very reasonable prices... this is a nice unit, plenty of wattage, and multiple +12v rails with good amperage on each... MOdular and 80%+ certified is pretty sweet too. XD

Mobo: GIgabyte makes good stuff... they have had a pretty good reputation for years and if anything that has increased with the release of their AM3 line... this baby has all that you are likely to need and it comes with a sweet combo deal too.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/ComboD...t=Combo.214782

CPU: You could spend another $25 and get a 955, but these overclock so easily, even with stock cooling that you can get it their yourself without breaking a sweat if you really want to. Also the Deneb series from AMD rivals the core i7 series from Intel when it comes to gaming and a i7 system is multiple Hundreds more $$$ too :/

GPU: Obliterate any game our there with this baby, unless you want to play Crysis at 2400x1600 res or somethign liek that on a 40" LCD this is all the video power you can handle and then some. HIS Ice Q series is very very fine too, btw... did I mention nice combo dicounts?

http://www.newegg.com/Product/ComboD...t=Combo.206758

RAM: I have this in my personal computer and I have been pleased with it's performance and reliability.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820227364

HDD: 1TB of WD storage room.. sounds like enough for a couple of years aye?

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16822136284

Optical Drive: LG has been good to me int he past and it's about the cheapest SATA drive that Newegg has.... can't really go wrong with this one anyways.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16827136168

CASE: This is such a matter of personal preference that I just went with the Antec 300 you mentioned. Note that this one is $15 more but it comes with 2 more 120mm LED fans pre-installed, so you are coming out ahead or at least even in the end. My personal opinion is that the Antec 300 is too small of a case, but I like to open mine up and mess around in it allot, so it's more important for me to have extra room for my big hands to move around in there. It's a quality case, but larger graphics cards will be a tight fit... esp NVIDIA ones which are longer than the current ATI offerings.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16811129066

TOTAL PRICE:

$742.89 (after Rebates does not include shipping.... shipping to NY was about $27, obviously that will vary a little - this build also includes a free game and a fee 4GB flash drive)

You could probably shave off a little if you spent more time checking every single item out... but I'll vouch for the above fore mentioned build and it's a super good price compared to what you'll spend elsewhere.... not to mention that this will eat any laptop for breakfast and crap it out by lunch time.

Ariena Najea · Jul 20, 2009, 05:14 AM // 05:14

Thank you for posting that Elder, although I have a couple of questions:

For the CPU, I thought that Phenoms weren't really worth it for the cost? I realize I can't really afford a core i7, but would getting a Core 2 Duo 8400 or something be better? Or, if I can keep this for more than four years and have it still be useful, I don't mind paying a little extra for a core i7 if it's really worth the money. Ideally I'd like the keep the machine under $800, but if I'm saving hundreds of dollars down the road, it may be worth it for me to invest in something better.

For the Radeon 4890, would it be more cost effective to get a lesser GPU that is crossfire compatible, since my needs aren't near what the one you suggested can do. Then, I could save some on my initial cost, and upgrade with another card in crossfire in a few years if needed?

For the Case, I don't really see any differences between the Antec 300 Illusion and the standard one apart from the fans, except for some blue lighting in the pictures for the Illusion? I'm a fan of more computer cooling (quiet is a must though) but not so much for glowing lights. Are these something you can easily turn off (or not turn on in the first place) without messing up the power to the fans, because those lights will drive me insane.

After looking over what you posted and the price, I'm very impressed, and much more keen on getting the desktop. Now I just need to find a "comparable" machine from Best Buy or some other non-NewEgg store with the usual "deals", so that I can make a nice comparison for my donor =)

SigurdTheBalmung · Jul 20, 2009, 02:10 PM // 14:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ariena Najea

Now I just need to find a "comparable" machine from Best Buy or some other non-NewEgg store with the usual "deals", so that I can make a nice comparison for my donor =)

You won't find a comparably priced machine, with similar components to what Elder has listed at a big box store like BestBuy. It is just a fact of retail. It will be more expensive to buy a pre-built machine at retail with high-end parts, than to do it yourself. Sometimes %50 more. You'll be able to find something similar to what Elder has listed, but it won't be anywhere near the price he has listed. Looking at BB's website you will be spending at least $1200 for a comparable machine, and even then much of what Elder has listed is going to be way better...

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage....2180964 48542

Ariena Najea · Jul 20, 2009, 02:58 PM // 14:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by SigurdTheBalmung

You won't find a comparably priced machine, with similar components to what Elder has listed at a big box store like BestBuy. It is just a fact of retail. It will be more expensive to buy a pre-built machine at retail with high-end parts, than to do it yourself. Sometimes %50 more. You'll be able to find something similar to what Elder has listed, but it won't be anywhere near the price he has listed. Looking at BB's website you will be spending at least $1200 for a comparable machine, and even then much of what Elder has listed is going to be way better...

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage....2180964 48542

I'm aware, the point of looking at pre-built machines from Best Buy or another retail store is to better emphasize the price difference. My donor trusts Best Buy and other stores more than an online site, even though NewEgg is amazing, so it works out better =)

Although I am liking the 9GB DD3 RAM, but then again, why would I need that much? Thanks for posting that, it looks somewhat comparable and will be a good base for price comparison for my donor!

SigurdTheBalmung · Jul 20, 2009, 10:36 PM // 22:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ariena Najea

Although I am liking the 9GB DD3 RAM, but then again, why would I need that much?

I was amazed by that myself... good luck to you.

Elder III · Jul 20, 2009, 10:44 PM // 22:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ariena Najea

Thank you for posting that Elder, although I have a couple of questions:

For the CPU, I thought that Phenoms weren't really worth it for the cost? I realize I can't really afford a core i7, but would getting a Core 2 Duo 8400 or something be better? Or, if I can keep this for more than four years and have it still be useful, I don't mind paying a little extra for a core i7 if it's really worth the money. Ideally I'd like the keep the machine under $800, but if I'm saving hundreds of dollars down the road, it may be worth it for me to invest in something better.

For the Radeon 4890, would it be more cost effective to get a lesser GPU that is crossfire compatible, since my needs aren't near what the one you suggested can do. Then, I could save some on my initial cost, and upgrade with another card in crossfire in a few years if needed?

For the Case, I don't really see any differences between the Antec 300 Illusion and the standard one apart from the fans, except for some blue lighting in the pictures for the Illusion? I'm a fan of more computer cooling (quiet is a must though) but not so much for glowing lights. Are these something you can easily turn off (or not turn on in the first place) without messing up the power to the fans, because those lights will drive me insane.

After looking over what you posted and the price, I'm very impressed, and much more keen on getting the desktop. Now I just need to find a "comparable" machine from Best Buy or some other non-NewEgg store with the usual "deals", so that I can make a nice comparison for my donor =)

The Phenom II series is worth every penny you spend on them - they overclock wonderfully and having a quad core may not make much difference in most games right now, but I surely expect more games int he future to be coded to utilize 4 cores - so that alone is a good enough reason to get them..... PLUS - a quad is much better for multi-tasking - play GW, download tunes, have a DVD encoding int he background, run 20 tabs in Firefox, and still have barely more than a blip on the performance chart... that is the beauty of the quad core. Anyways the 8400 you mentioned is good, but it's last generation and Intel mobos are more expensive than AMD... not to mention that a AM2+ or AM3 mobo will have more future compatiability than a Core 2 duo mobo.. which is on it's way out now.

Hyper.nl · Jul 21, 2009, 07:13 AM // 07:13

The question is simple really:

Do you really need the mobility that only a laptop can provide?

If yes, you need a laptop. If no, then a desktop is a far better choice for many reasons like:

Better price/performance ratio
Better upgradable
Less fragile
Better cooling possible
Repairs are less complicated

Ariena Najea · Jul 27, 2009, 06:35 PM // 18:35

Alright, I'm nearly ready to make a purchase, but I have one more question xD

Should I get a sound card? I noticed on your build elder that one is not listed, but I saw on various build-sites online that onboard sound is terrible?

Abedeus · Jul 27, 2009, 06:40 PM // 18:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ariena Najea

Alright, I'm nearly ready to make a purchase, but I have one more question xD

Should I get a sound card? I noticed on your build elder that one is not listed, but I saw on various build-sites online that onboard sound is terrible?

Nope. Unless you are a sound maniac, don't waste money or voltage on sound cards. Besides, most of the current motherboards have some sort of HD sound support, like Realtek or so.

Lord Sojar · Jul 27, 2009, 09:37 PM // 21:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

Nope. Unless you are a sound maniac, don't waste money or voltage on sound cards. Besides, most of the current motherboards have some sort of HD sound support, like Realtek or so.

This is 100% true.

The best advice I can give you on building a system is to look at what games you play most often, what you do most often, and base the system around that.

Intel's Corei7 CPUs will beat out the AMD PhenomIIs any day, but by how much is dependent on the application and usage.

ATi's GPUs will beat out nVidia's in some titles at some resolutions, and other titles at different resolutions nVidia will beat ATi out. Typically those margins are less than ~5%, but there are specific games that scale much better with each company (margins of ~15% or greater). Look at benchmarks and determine which of those games you play, and base your purchase on that.

As for RAM, for any standard usage, 6GBs is more than enough. The only reason you should need more than that is if you use any type of real world simulation software, do extensive database work, or very extensive graphic design work (the Adobe CS4 family is extremely powerful, but very very RAM intensive)

That said, typically the bottleneck with an AMD Phenom is the CPU, whereas with a Corei7, it is the GPU. That means the Corei7 build is inherently a more expensive build because of that.

In general, when building an AMD PhenomII build, it is best to go with ATi's graphics solutions, if for the simple reason that driver conflicts will be kept to a minimum.

The build I would highly suggest would be as follows:

Case: I have a thing for Cooler Master's products. They are quality.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16811119196

PSU: Corsair makes great PSUs. They aren't the best, but for the money, they are amazing.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16817139006

Motherboard: ASUS is still a great board maker, this board proves that. Though a bit on the pricey side, it will allow the components to really breathe.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16813131392

CPU: Excellent performance, can keep up with Corei7 in many circumstances.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16819103674

GPU: Great memory clocks, will perform beautifully. XFX uses high binned GPUs with us, so I don't see why it would be different for ATi. That leaves room for you to push the clocks up a bit.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814150359

RAM: Great timings, overclockable, GSkill is top company for me right now. Corsair is overpriced. Did I mention cheap?
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820231189

HDD: Despite past issues with them, Seagate remains one of my favorite companies because they are innovative and make very very solid drives that perform beautifully.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16822148433

DVDROM: Almost forgot this... lol. Same one suggested above, as you can't go wrong with LG.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16827136168

Grand Total: $1,018.78 (includes shipping)

Suffice to say, that system is a beast, and fits all your criteria. I am sure you could cut costs a bit by reducing the CPU to an X3 or X2, reduce the GPU to a 4870, cut the case cost a bit, maybe even the HDD, and go with a slightly smaller PSU... but honestly, if you want this to last 4 years with minimal upgrades, stick with that ^ build.

The last thing I could suggest would be to go with an HD4850/4870 and then upgrade later down the road when the DX11 cards are released for Windows7. You will lose performance now, but benefit then. That is totally up to you, as you could just upgrade when a DX11 game comes out that really gets you excited.

Anyways, best of luck.