Curse

ducktape · Jul 10, 2008, 08:56 PM // 20:56

With it being thunderstorm season, and especially after reading about Rahja's equipment getting electrocuted, I thought it would be a good opportunity to get a new, better surge protector for my computer.

Does anyone have any advice about surge protectors? I know to get one with coax connectors to surge-protect the coax line if you have cable internet, one with phone line connectors to surge-protect those if you have DSL or dial-up, and that's about it. I have no idea how many joules of protection are enough, and whether or not it would make a difference to get a UPS battery system, since those allegedly have the best kind of surge protector within them.

The surge protector I have now is a hand-me-down from a few years ago when I was pretty poor, and it's some brand I've never heard of, and neither the Protected nor the Grounded lights light up anymore, so just about anything would be a good upgrade from this!

zamial · Jul 16, 2008, 02:53 PM // 14:53

Uninteruptable power supply (UPS) that is what you want, not a surge protector. A Ups will save you from surges, brown outs and black outs. The more expensive they are the longer they power your system. Never plug a printer into them. Some even come with a equipment warrenty (the stuff plugged into it) for more than the equipment is worth, in the case of home users, most of the time. Most will even put the computer into hibernation and save files.

Namebrands that seem good are: APC (Best? hope you have deep pokets), tripplite + cyberpower + belkin about the same. I think I would choose belkin over the others, that is me. Belkin do have a "funny" smell for a few days on some models.

anything on this page that fits your needs:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc... =Top+Sellers

I suggest getting 1 locally if possible they are heavy = expensive to ship.
Another thing to consider is the price but if you have an unstable power grid that is the price you pay for keeping your equipment from getting nuked. I am suggesting a UPS for you for this reason: Lightning storm = power surge, normally followed by sudden power loss.

Riot Narita · Jul 16, 2008, 03:23 PM // 15:23

As zamial said. I don't put a lot of faith in surge protectors... great if you expect lightning strikes, but little else.

I use an Uninterruptible Power Supply. My domestic power is occasionally noisy, and some PC components are susceptible to damage from poor power supplies eg. memory and hard disks. I had two hard disks fail with 6 months of moving in... and the "bad power" giveaway was two desktop PC's, on seperate wall sockets, simultaneously resetting themselves.

So I bought a UPS, and made sure I put high quality power supply units in my home-built PC's. The first UPS I used was APC. It was OK, but on their consumer models it's impossible to turn off the (loud) audible alarm when it kicks in. Also, when there are dips/noise in your supply, it clicks loudly each time it switches on and off. This is annoying, since it might do this many times in rapid succession if your supply is "wavering". And if the power dips for more than a few seconds at a time, the alarm goes off.

If you leave the UPS and/or your PC switched on overnight... this clicking, and the alarm are EXTREMELY annoying when you're trying to sleep. Actually they're extremely annoying at any time.

I asked APC support if there was a way to disable the audio alarm - and just silently do a controlled PC shutdown if the UPS is activated and runs out of battery. Despite explaining why I would want this, they treated me like a dumb kid: "why would you want to do that, DUH? There's a reason the alarm goes off". They seem to think that people run 24/7 support services for mission-critical systems AT HOME, with their CONSUMER-LEVEL products, and need an alarm so they can come a-running when the UPS is activated. Bah.

I changed to a Belkin UPS instead, which doesn't click loudly when it switches in, and its audible alarm can be disabled. I won't touch an APC unit again.

the bourne hells · Jul 16, 2008, 03:58 PM // 15:58

I have a Cyberpower UPS works great when playing through a short powersurge or loss of power for a few seconds. I also have them on my TVs and Router so I can play Guildwars all the time XD.

But one thing I can tell you from experience is that they will not protect agaisnt a lighting strike as they all have a fine print that states they will not. And most the time when eletronics get demaged is because of a direct strike. Trust me not fun, I lost quite a few electronics.

But as for surge protection you best bet would be a UPS. Its just so nice not loosing power also.

And as for that annoying alarm Cyberpower units have a nice little button that can disable the alarm is you so desire.

zamial · Jul 16, 2008, 04:23 PM // 16:23

I also want to add in here that the idea of a UPS is not to "keep playing" with no power. It is so that you can safely shutdown your equipment.

the bourne hells · Jul 16, 2008, 04:31 PM // 16:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by zamial

I also want to add in here that the idea of a UPS is not to "keep playing" with no power. It is so that you can safely shutdown your equipment.

It all depends on your wattage and power out I can run my gaming equipment for 3 hours and 45 minutes so I personally can. If you get the lower end UPS then Obviously the 3-15 minutes inst sufficient for play and you'll have to shut down.

You can also set them to auto shutdown after X seconds/minutes after the power goes of to ensure a safe shutdown.

Quaker · Jul 16, 2008, 07:07 PM // 19:07

If you are concerned with "safely shutting down your computer" after a power failure, then you may need a UPS. But, a UPS is not a surge protector and doesn't protect your computer from lightning damage. Yes, most UPSs include a surge protector, but you can get surge protection without a UPS. A UPS is basically just a battery back-up so you can close out your apps and shutdown the system after a power failure (and by extension, after the surge.)

How much protection you get from a surge protector depends upon how big it is (how many joules it can handle) and how close to a lightning strike you are.

In practical terms a better-than-average quality surge protector is more than adequate for normal home use. If your house gets directly hit by lightning, there isn't any cost effective home surge protector that's gonna help.

Something like this:
http://www.tigerdirect.ca/applicatio...3934&CatId=232

or
http://www.tigerdirect.ca/applicatio...0684&CatId=232

should do nicely.

Beyond that you'd need something (expensive) wired into the main electrical panel.

Btw, since you say your current surge protectors "protected" and "grounded" lights don't light up anymore - chances are it "took one for the team" already and got fried. (If a surge larger than the SP can handle arrives it can fry the SP)

Lord Sojar · Jul 16, 2008, 07:30 PM // 19:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quaker

If you are concerned with "safely shutting down your computer" after a power failure, then you may need a UPS. But, a UPS is not a surge protector and doesn't protect your computer from lightning damage. Yes, most UPSs include a surge protector, but you can get surge protection without a UPS. A UPS is basically just a battery back-up so you can close out your apps and shutdown the system after a power failure (and by extension, after the surge.)

How much protection you get from a surge protector depends upon how big it is (how many joules it can handle) and how close to a lightning strike you are.

In practical terms a better-than-average quality surge protector is more than adequate for normal home use. If your house gets directly hit by lightning, there isn't any cost effective home surge protector that's gonna help.

He speaks the truth, as my apartment was just hit recently directly by lightning. Despite the very expensive UPS/Surge Protectors I had, my PC still suffered some damage and I had to replace (in my case repair) some parts. I couldn't repair my ethernet port #1 though. It is dead forever.

UPS with built in Surge Protection (which most have now) are the best option.

Alexandra-Sweet · Jul 16, 2008, 08:25 PM // 20:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rahja the Thief

He speaks the truth, as my apartment was just hit recently directly by lightning. Despite the very expensive UPS/Surge Protectors I had, my PC still suffered some damage and I had to replace (in my case repair) some parts.

Lightning rods ftw~

And a Surge Suppressor doesn't always protect your computer for 100% during a lightning storm.

Chthon · Jul 16, 2008, 09:03 PM // 21:03

1. Nothing is going to protect your computer from a direct lightning strike. (Hi Rahja!) Just be thankful that it didn't hit you.

2. Surge protection is more useful for situations with "noisy" power companies (possibly with poorly grounded lines that will carry an indirect lightning strike into your home) or poor wiring in your home or apartment.

3. I'd recommend a UPS with built-in surge protection.

4. I would not recommend one made by APC. I've had one fail completely and one that erratically mis-estimates its charge level by a factor of 10. And their support is not terribly helpful.

5. I have heard that a poor-man's solution to heavy surges is to chain garden-variety surge protectors in serial (that is, plug one surge protector into another). Given my limited knowledge of electrical engineering, that makes some sense to me. Anyone with a little more insight care to comment on this?

fusa · Jul 16, 2008, 10:02 PM // 22:02

Chaining surge protectors are a bad idea, bad fire hazard. As you said in point one, nothing will protect from lightning. It moves at the speed of light so no mechanical parts can stop something that fast. You best bet is to get one with a good warranty and trusted manufacturer. I've been using 2 APC here, not many problems other than their vista drivers are a huge waste of resources (but not needed at all) Biggest reason I use them is for the 1 or 2 second power drops which are enough to shut your computer down.

Dark Kal · Jul 17, 2008, 08:57 AM // 08:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by fusa

Chaining surge protectors are a bad idea, bad fire hazard.

How is it a fire hazard? Unless you're dumb enough to plug in a device in every power outlet of all the surge protectors and thereby exceed the cable's limit.

Quote:

It moves at the speed of light so no mechanical parts can stop something that fast.

It most certainly does not move at the speed of light. It moves at the same speed electricity does. The reason it's difficult to protect against is because it carries a boatload of energy.

A lightningrod is the best and cheapest solution to protect your house against lightning.

fusa · Jul 17, 2008, 10:00 AM // 10:00

Its speed is 93,000,000 mph, about 1/2 speed of light, more than enough to go faster then a surge protector can react. And chaining surge protectors is really stupid idea. They only work if plugged directly into a ground. Most companies void their warranty if they are chained. Lightning rods work sometimes, not anywhere close to being a guaranteed protection.

fusa · Jul 17, 2008, 10:30 AM // 10:30

might want to read http://www.lightningsafety.com/nlsi_lhm/magic.pdf about those "magical" lightning rods...

Quote:

Charge Transfer Systems and Early Streamer Emission air terminals are modern
incarnations of the “magic” wares peddled by Melville’s Lightning Rod Man — ornate devices with no
independent evidence that they live up to their fantastic claims, sold by a slick salesman who preys on his
customers’ fear of lightning and exploits their limited knowledge of lightning protection.

Dark Kal · Jul 17, 2008, 10:40 AM // 10:40

Eum... the speed of light is approximately 670,616,000 miles per hour, so... You also don't seem to know a lot about electricity either.

fusa · Jul 17, 2008, 10:51 AM // 10:51

Oops mistyped mps as mph, either way its still much faster than surge proectors can react and STILL 1/2 the speed as I stated before. Your magical lighting rod isn't going to protect you any better than an ornament on your house. There isn't anything that can give you your 100% protection against lightning.

zamial · Jul 17, 2008, 02:53 PM // 14:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by fusa

There isn't anything that can give you your 100% protection against lightning.

TURN off your PC, unplug the power and any wired cable rj-45/ rj-11 jack going to it. 100% protected. This is the only way I know of to protect your equipment during a bad electrical storm.

Quaker · Jul 17, 2008, 04:08 PM // 16:08

Lol. Some of this is getting pretty funny.

@Fusa - the surge protectors are not mechanical devices. They use solid-state devices.

@Fusa again - that story about "magical" lightning arrestors is not about lightning rods. It's about other devices that claim to work as well as lightning rods. Lightning rods do work.

@Fusa again - Not that I'm disputing whether chaining SPs is good or bad, but since each SP has grounded 3-prong connectors, each SP will be connected directly to ground. The quality of the overall ground connection would rely upon how well your main electrical power panel is grounded - which is something often overlooked.

@Zamial - Even unplugging everything won't protect your PC from a direct lightning strike. But it should protect it from any spikes coming in through the power lines.

Quaker · Jul 17, 2008, 04:17 PM // 16:17

And speaking of Surge Protectors - lightning is not the only thing they protect against.

A short story:

I once had a customer phone me and complain that his computer (which I had built for him) was shutting down randomly. I told him to bring it over and I'd have a look at it.

I plugged it in, turned it on and left it running overnight. No shutdown, no reboot. Just in case, of course, I did the usual clean out the dust and making sure all the fans were working and thermal paste was where it should be. I told him I couldn't find anything wrong with and he picked it up and took it back home.

He called me again a few days later. Same story, same routine, same result.

When he called a 3rd time a little light went on in my head. I asked him where the computer was located. Short answer: in a small 'computer' room in basement next to the freezer. The freezer and the computer's "power bar" were plugged into the same outlet. I told him to try to note if the freezer came on (or went off) at the same time as the computer rebooted. I also told him that he should get himself a power bar with a surge protector built in.

He never called back, so......

Edit: well, not never - I did sell him another computer a few years later, but I forgot to ask...

Hannes · Jul 17, 2008, 04:33 PM // 16:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by zamial

I also want to add in here that the idea of a UPS is not to "keep playing" with no power. It is so that you can safely shutdown your equipment.

Yeap, that's one reason I got mine.
The other reason is for insurance purposes... Even if I have 10,000 UPS / surge protectors connected 2 the pc, chances are that lightning will still fry something... (Murphy's Law - I always have bad luck)
So it's just to cover my own @rse incase something does happen, at which point my household insurance will pay out / replace my 2x pc's. (they are connected to a Mecer 800VA UPS)

I don't even know if it has a built-in surge protector or not lol \_(o_O)_/