Curse

Meridon · Aug 11, 2010, 09:30 AM // 09:30

Hey there people, I've got an issue with my GW PC so I'm posting here in the hope to get some information

Last night I got back from a 2-weeks holiday and of course, within an hour of my arrival, I was anxious to fire up ye olde GW

Basically, when I plugged in the circuitbox of my PC again, the entire 1st floor of my house short circuited. I spent some time restoring power and pinpointing the cause of the power failure, I also had a phone call with Antec (my PSU manufacturer)'s Technical support. Basically, here's the situation:

When my PC is plugged in, AND the little black button on the back of my PC is turned on (which as far as I know is the button of the power supply), it short ciruits. I can plug it in just fine if the button to the power supply is turned off, but when I turn it on, it short-circuits instantly, meaning I can't start up my pc or anything. Also, with power supply turned on, if I plug it in it also short circuits instantly.

Now, I'd like to have a go at fixing my PC myself. I'm just your average hobby gamer, with little technical knowledge of what's inside. I can distinguish the various parts, and I can sensibly read and follow instructions, which leads me to the following questions:

1. Do you think it's worth a try for me to fix my PC myself?

2. If the answer to 1 is yes, can I be 100% certain that the PSU is the cause of my short circuit, and that replacing it would fix the problem?

3. If the answer to 2 is no, what else should I do to pinpoint the cause?

4. If the answer to 2 is yes, what specs and other criteria apart from Watt's do I need to keep in mind when buying a new PSU?

5. If the answer to 2 is yes, could someone please provide me with (a link to a) detailed and comprehensible walkthrough on how to safely and securely replace my PSU?

For reference, my PSU is an Antec 350W Output Model SL350P, with PFC. AC input 230V/4A; 47Hz ~ 63 Hz. This is what the PSU says anyways, I really have no idea what half of that means.

Thanks for any response!

Sirrush · Aug 11, 2010, 10:49 AM // 10:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meridon

words

1. Do you think it's worth a try for me to fix my PC myself?

2. If the answer to 1 is yes, can I be 100% certain that the PSU is the cause of my short circuit, and that replacing it would fix the problem?

3. If the answer to 2 is no, what else should I do to pinpoint the cause?

4. If the answer to 2 is yes, what specs and other criteria apart from Watt's do I need to keep in mind when buying a new PSU?

5. If the answer to 2 is yes, could someone please provide me with (a link to a) detailed and comprehensible walkthrough on how to safely and securely replace my PSU?

For reference, my PSU is an Antec 350W Output Model SL350P, with PFC. AC input 230V/4A; 47Hz ~ 63 Hz. This is what the PSU says anyways, I really have no idea what half of that means.

Thanks for any response!

1. Sure

2. Yes (if possible, test with another PSU)

4. 80%+ efficiency, and same (or thereabouts) cabling as your previous PSU.

5. 1) Disconnect pc from electricity stuffs. 2) unplug PSU cabling from all video cards, mother board, HDD, etc. 3) get a screwdriver, and unscrew the screws, remove PSU. 4) Put in new PSU, screw. 5) Attach 20+4 pin to mobo, and other cables where they are required. 6) Plug it into a main power outlet thingamajig. 7) Turn pc on. 8) ???? 9) PROFIT!

Elder III · Aug 11, 2010, 12:47 PM // 12:47

I'd be more worried about the lousy wiring in your house than the PC my friend. Plugging a low powered PC into the wall socket should not short circuit everything on an entire floor. Of course if it's old wiring and the whole house is on one 15amp circuit......

Anyways, back on target here:

It does indeed sound like the power supply is bad; beware that it is a possibility that when short circuiting that some or all of the components in the PC itself fried. I believe most Antec PSUs have a kill point that should prevent this, but it is possible. Now that I have the doom & gloom out of the way here's the good news:

Yes you can replace the PSU by yourself & it's not very hard to do so. You have the benefit of seeing where every cable you unplug goes, so all you really have to do is retrace your steps when you put a new one in.

To be safe you should invest $5 in an Anti-Static Wristband - that will make sure you are grounded and that no static electricity is discharged inside your PC.

What are the specs on your PC? If you were running it all with a 350watt PSU I'm doubting that it's very power hungry, but you don't want to short sell yourself for future upgrades either....

Meridon · Aug 11, 2010, 01:06 PM // 13:06

Thanks for the advice so far!

First of all, I'm sure my house's electrical wireing is OK

it's not like it's hanging loose or anything so I'm not too worried about getting electrocuted or something

On the subject of my entire PC being fried, the guy from Antec support said all my other hardware components should be ok, and I as hell hope they are indeed.

My system itself is rather old, purchased around 2005, back then it was medium-high end. It's got an ASUS K8V-X mobo, AMD 3000+ processor, an nVidia 6800 LE gfx card, Creative SB Audigy 2 soundcard, 2 Seagate Barracuda 160GB HD's, a DVD drive, a DVD-burning drive, and a floppy disk drive. It's completely unknown to me how this translates to the amount of power it needs, but I guess 350W will do since that was already in it. I could really use some advice on what kind of PSU to buy, with a future PC-upgrade in mind indeed. I'm planning to just get my PSU from the local dealer's, to get my PC up and running again ASAP, and I have no idea how big their selection is, so I could best use some general advice on specs, price range and model/brand choice.

This brings me to my following point. I have no knowledge about the cabling. I don't know if there's any difference in the cable to my 6800 and my sound card for example, I do know however that the motherboard has 2 seperate cables. Should I keep the old cabling in use? If that's the case I guess I can just reroute everything the way it was.

So far, I'm quite confident that in the end I can get it done. I've dug up this guide:
http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/artic...r-Supply/362/1

I'll also be purchasing an anti-static wristband, thanks for that tip. If I can get a good idea of what PSU to buy and what to do about the cables, I'll be good to go.

-edit: here's a list of what my local PC dealer has in store:

Trust atx PSU 420 watt Big Fan € 42.00
Trust atx PSU 370 watt Big Fan € 37.00
Coolermaster Realpower 520watt modular € 73.99
Coolermaster Silent Pro 700watt € 109.00
Coolermaster Real Power M 620watt modular € 90.00
Corsair PSU 620watt HX Modular € 131.00
Corsair PSU 650watt TX € 108.00
Corsair PSU 750watt TX € 130.00
Konig 350watt Big Fan € 33.00
Konig 450watt Big Fan € 38.00

On a sidenote, don't ask me what modular stands for, I have no idea if it's important or not. Personally, I'm not planning to spend more than 75 euros on a PSU, unless that really limits my future gaming upgrade abilities.

Quaker · Aug 11, 2010, 04:20 PM // 16:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meridon

1. Do you think it's worth a try for me to fix my PC myself?

Definitely

Quote:

If the answer to 1 is yes, can I be 100% certain that the PSU is the cause of my short circuit, and that replacing it would fix the problem?

You can never be 100% sure. It's possible that some other component failed. However, normally, if some other component is shorted, the power supply just goes into a "shut-down mode" and won't start. The fact that the power supply shorts the whole electrical system would indicate that the power supply has fried. But there could be other problems as well.

Quote:

If the answer to 2 is no, what else should I do to pinpoint the cause?

If the power supply was just going into shutdown, you could unplug all the things connected to it and then plug them in one at a time until you find the bad one by process of elimination.

Quote:

If the answer to 2 is yes, what specs and other criteria apart from Watt's do I need to keep in mind when buying a new PSU?

Other than watts? Nothing really - any "new" supply is sure to have the proper connectors, etc.

Quote:

could someone please provide me with (a link to a) detailed and comprehensible walkthrough on how to safely and securely replace my PSU?

Unplug the mains (the AC cable) from the power supply. Unplug everything else from the power supply inside the computer. Remove the 4 screws holding the supply in place. Put in the new supply, install the 4 screws, reconnect the cables to their appropriate devices. The connectors are all "keyed" so they only go in one way, and they are different enough that you won't get them mixed up.

Quote:

Coolermaster Realpower 520watt modular € 73.99

I'm not familiar with Trust or Konig, but any of the CM or Corsair ones would do, since the original was only 350 watts. Modular only means that the cables connecting the power supply to the components are not permanently attached to the PSU. That means that you can connect only those cables you actually need. Unless you are concerned about the neatness of the insides of your computer, it doesn't matter much either way.

Meridon · Aug 11, 2010, 05:10 PM // 17:10

Thanks for the advice! Especially on what PSU to buy, I´m gonna go and pick it up tomorrow.

I have one last question: About the cables and their devices, are you saying I should unplug them at the side of the PSU, and not at the side of the devices? or can I do both, without it really mattering at all?

With that, I guess I'll just follow the instructions on the link I posted earlier. If anyone has anything to add, any tips or safety instructions, feel free to let me know. I'm new to doing any of this, so all knowledge is welcome!

Thanks again.

Pinkest One · Aug 11, 2010, 08:13 PM // 20:13

Few quick things to clear up...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quaker

Other than watts? Nothing really

Seeing he has a 6800LE and

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meridon

a future PC-upgrade in mind indeed.

its always good to keep an eye on the amperage of the 12volt rail(s) to feed those GPU's although with a video card upgrade in mind. As you said,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quaker

any of the CM or Corsair ones would do,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meridon

I have one last question: About the cables and their devices, are you saying I should unplug them at the side of the PSU, and not at the side of the devices? or can I do both, without it really mattering at all?

You most likely can only unplug the peripherals from the cables unless your 350watt is a modular

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quaker

Modular only means that the cables connecting the power supply to the components are not permanently attached to the PSU. That means that you can connect only those cables you actually need. Unless you are concerned about the neatness of the insides of your computer, it doesn't matter much either way.

Meridon · Aug 11, 2010, 09:07 PM // 21:07

Thanks!

Right now I'm working on removing the PSU from the box. I've got all the cables detached from the hardware, except for the one in the 6800. It's giving me a really hard time, and I don't want to break the damn thing

do you have any suggestions on how to safely unplug it? EDIT: Nvm I got it now

Also, forgive me but I have no idea what you mean by 'amperage of the 12 volt rails to feed those GPU's' or how to watch them

I also noticed that I can indeed not detach the cabling from my PSU's side. Does that mean I need to get new power cables along with the Coolmaster PSU i'm going to buy? Or do you think they come with the PSU?

I did a sketchup on the wireing, and this is what the various connections lead to:

- A 20-pin connector into my motherboard
- An auxilliary 4-pin connector into my motherboard
- A connector to my 6800 which I can't seem to remove without excessive force
- Two connectors, being fed straight into my two HD's, one each.
- An additional connector to the casing that holds my two HD's, to power its fan
- Two connectors for my DVD drive and DVD-RW drive, one each.
- A small connector for my floppy disk drive
- Another small connector for another fan that's in my box.

Would I need to buy specific wireing for each of these components, to connect them to my PSU? If so, is there anything specific to look out for? For example, I see several colours of wireing going to each connector (red, black and yellow mostly).

Pinkest One · Aug 11, 2010, 09:37 PM // 21:37

As for the wires,every wire you should ever need(plus some you wont for awhile) will come with your new PSU. So dont worry about detaching them from the old PSU.Just make sure the power supply you bought has the 4-pin molex connector your 6800LE uses and you should be golden. If you look at the wire(a 4-pin Molex Connector) going to your 6800 its got 4 wires red is the 5 volt,two blacks are grounds,and yellow is the 12volt.

As for "watching the amps on the 12v rail" i meant that some GPU's need so many amps(supplied by the 12v rail on the Molex connected to it) to operate. While quality PSU manufacturers(Like Coolermaster and Corsair) usually supply plenty of amps on the 12v(30amps+) some PSU may advertise having 800watt but providing few amps per 12v rail.
Getting the Molex off your 6800 might take some force and a little wiggling.Just be gentle and persistent.

Meridon · Aug 11, 2010, 09:59 PM // 21:59

That's some great info on the wires, thanks! I'll be running my old PSU through a multimeter tomorrow before buying a new one, just to check if it's really the cause of the short circuit or not. I'll be sure to check the voltages on the red and yellow pins on one of the molex connectors. My current system has me using 6 Molex connectors, along with the mobo connectors and my floppy drive connector. I'll make sure I get some more molex connectors with the new PSU so I'm able to run two graphics cards in Crossfire/SLI in the future. I'll ask the technician over at the vendor's specifically for the amperage the yellow 12v wires are able to output.

Going to bed now, thanks for all the help so far, I'll let you guys know when I have my new PSU tomorrow.

Elder III · Aug 12, 2010, 03:12 AM // 03:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meridon

I'll make sure I get some more molex connectors with the new PSU so I'm able to run two graphics cards in Crossfire/SLI in the future.

.

Don't worry to much about it - Molex is very out dated and hardly any new hardware other than perhaps case fans uses it. Also, you won't be SLIing your 6800 as that would be very pointless. When the time comes that you feel your current system is not able to handle what you want to do you will be looking at a complete new system (with the exception of your PSU and perhaps CD/DVD drive).

Quaker · Aug 12, 2010, 02:57 PM // 14:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meridon

Also, forgive me but I have no idea what you mean by 'amperage of the 12 volt rails to feed those GPU's' or how to watch them

Don't worry about it. It's one of those semi-techy things that people get overly concerned about without actually understanding it. The bottom line is that power is directly related to amperage (and vice versa) and any new quality power supply will have the wattage/amperage in the proper proportions for today's computer demands.

Quote:

I also noticed that I can indeed not detach the cabling from my PSU's side. Does that mean I need to get new power cables along with the Coolmaster PSU i'm going to buy? Or do you think they come with the PSU?

Would I need to buy specific wireing for each of these components, to connect them to my PSU?

The connectors are all "standard" and come with the PSU.
A ordinary, non-modular, PSU will have the wires and connectors permanently attached to the PSU like in your old PSU.
A modular PSU will have the connectors on several cables which you then plug into the power supply as needed.

Pinkest One · Aug 12, 2010, 07:31 PM // 19:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meridon

I'll ask the technician over at the vendor's specifically for the amperage the yellow 12v wires are able to output.

I wouldnt worry about asking, any name brand PSU will have a sticker on the side of the unit itself stating its power ratings.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quaker

Don't worry about it. It's one of those semi-techy things that people get overly concerned about without actually understanding it. The bottom line is that power is directly related to amperage (and vice versa) and any new quality power supply will have the wattage/amperage in the proper proportions for today's computer demands

"Video card operating in 'Low-power Mode'...WTF is going on!?" Ive seen people get flabbergasted as to why their 550watt PSU wont power their upgraded GPU.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elder III

Don't worry to much about it - Molex is very out dated and hardly any new hardware other than perhaps case fans uses it. Also, you won't be SLIing your 6800 as that would be very pointless.

This is all truths though. Theres not much upgrading you can do in AGP unless you want to spend an arm and a leg for a Radeon 3850 just to have it "slightly" bottle necked by the 8x AGP slot.
If you do a complete overhaul,keeping the PSU, you'll end up using 6,6+2 or 8 pin PCI-E Power Cables anyways

Showtime · Aug 12, 2010, 07:47 PM // 19:47

Whenever there are concerns of bad wiring etc in an old or newer house etc, bring and use a surge protector. Seems obvious to most since many use a surge with all electronics regardless. Those bigger battery back up systems could also help maintain your system, but they still cost a fair amount. Regardless, the power button should be off when you plug in. It's a safe habit to have with all electronics that use a decent amount of power.

Meridon · Aug 12, 2010, 07:53 PM // 19:53

Hey guys, just popping in to let you know on how things are going. Thanks for all the replies and support so far, it really has helped me figure all of this out.

I successfully took out my old PSU last night, and took it to the computer shop today. The technician confirmed the PSU wasn't working, by hooking it up to a test-rig. I ordered the Coolermaster 520W, and they said I'll be able to pick it up tomorrow. I had some doubts on it being able to handle a heavy enough system, but I figured that now I have a PS3, I shouldn't be worrying about a new top-quality gaming PC as long as it can run GW2

I'm going to pick up the Coolermaster 520W as soon as the shop gives me a call tomorrow, so I can install it the same day. I really really hope my other PC components weren't fried during the short circuit... cause that would be my nightmare, along with my GW account getting hacked during the time I was on holidays (which I won't be able to confirm until then) lol

A big thanks to everyone who has helped me with this in the thread, I'll let you know when anything new is up, when I have (or not been able to) successfully install the new PSU

Elder III · Aug 12, 2010, 09:24 PM // 21:24

Actually that PSU you are buying would be sufficient for a decent modern ccomputer when it comes time to upgrade. You won't be putting a high end video card in it, but if you are still happy with your current PC, chances are you won't have a need for a $300 video card down the road either.

Meridon · Aug 13, 2010, 05:28 PM // 17:28

Hey again!

I've picked up my Coolermaster 520W today, and I've been installing it this afternoon. Pretty much everything is done now (except for organizing and binding some cables together) but there is one more obstacle.

The motherboard connector of my new PSU is 24 pins, and the socket only has room for 20 pins. Now, at first I wasn't too worried, because I read about these connectors being able to split into a 20-pin connector by removing 4 pins. I also asked the sales clerk about this when I ordered the new PSU, who confirmed this was the case for my new PSU.

However.... it's not. My 24 pin connector is solid and I can't seem to seperate 4 pins without demolishing the thing. As soon as I noticed I made a phonecall to the store, and the technician said I should put the 24-pin connector in the 20-pin socket, leaving the two upper rows of pins open (1,2,13,14). He assured me it would work and not damage my system. I warned him of course that I've been given the wrong advice already when ordering the PSU so if his advice of plugging the 24 into a 20-socket is going to result in my PC to explode, it's not my fault and I will get back at him with a damage claim. Nevertheless, he assured me it would work.

Now, call me stubborn and hard-headed, but I still don't trust it

I've been comparing the info in my motherboard's manual on the socket with the manual of my CM 520, and there are huge differences in the pins it seems:

http://www.coolermaster.com/upload/d...520_Manual.pdf page 10

http://forum.greycomputer.de/downloa...asus/k8v-x.pdf page 31

As you can see, the layout for the pins is completely different, even if you start comparing from pin 3 and 15 in the CM layout, to have the upper 4 pins fall outside the socket as the store technician suggested.

My question: Am I seeing ghosts here or is my PSU cable simply not compatible with my motherboard? I really don't want to blow my pc up so sorry for the fuss

Quaker · Aug 13, 2010, 08:10 PM // 20:10

Well, that is a bit odd. I would agree with the tech - many of the newer power supplies have a connector where the last 4 pins can be separated from the rest for compatibility with older 20-pin connectors, which works because the main 20-pins are the same for each type of connector. It's also reasonable that at some point, new power supplies would drop the "split" and have a solid 24-pin connector, but the pin layout would, of course, still be the same. And I would think it should be possible to do as the tech says and plug the 24-pin into the 20-pin, especially since the connectors are "keyed" (note the different shape of the connector wells) and can only go in one way.

However, looking at your two manuals there does seem to be something odd going on there. I'll look it over some more and get back with an edit.

Edit, OK - it seems to be a combination of two things.
1. the motherboard manual shows the pinouts as seen by looking down at the motherboard. The power supply manual shows the pinouts as looking at the end of the cable.
2. The "pin 1" label on the connector in the motherboard manual is a misprint. Pin 1 would actually be the bottom-left of the drawing.

Bottom line, yes you can plug the 24-pin connector into the 20-pin connector. Just make sure that the "keyed" connectors are in the correct place (the extra four connectors would be at the "top" of the motherboard manual's picture) and make sure that the extra connectors do not short against any components on the motherboard where they overhang.

Meridon · Aug 13, 2010, 08:25 PM // 20:25

Nope, it's a desktop originally intended for gaming purposes back in '05-'06. The PC was assembled together by the specialist pc retailer it was ordered from, with specific parts in mind, so nothing prefab

-Edit because of your edit: Awesome, thanks a lot! I'm going to finish fitting it now. When I've successfully booted up, I'll let it know from that PC

-Edit 2: Yeah! I've successfully booted. There are some vibrations coming from the box, it's either my motherboard vibrating against the side of my pc or my PSU, I'll give that a check tomorrow or on sunday, since I'm rather busy this weekend. Regardless, Quaker, Elder, Pinkest one, thank you so much for all your help and support. When I get back in game (probably not before sunday), I'll think of something to show my gratitude

Elder III · Aug 13, 2010, 10:25 PM // 22:25

Hey man - glad you got it working again. May you vanquish many foes!