Monk positioning & awareness in PvP - Guild Wars Forums

Dragou Du Porzan · Feb 26, 2005, 12:00 AM // 00:00

We all know that everyone is going to pile on the enemy monk as soon as the PvP match starts. I knew what I was getting into when I signed up for this thankless job, and I'm prepared to accept it. Heck, I'll embrace it, taunting my foes while they trip over their feet trying to gang up on me. The problem is that's not so impressive when they actually do gang up on me and beat me to a bloody pulp. Most embarrassing.

That's where the positioning question comes in: as a monk, where exactly should you try to position yourself once the battle commences? I hear you: "As far back as possible!" But doesn't that isolate you from possible support from your party, giving sneaky warriors the chance to come up from behind and cut you off from your group? Would you be better off staying more to the front in an effort to stick by the warriors you're trying to keep alive (and in turn giving them a chance to aid you)? What's your take on a monk's optimal PvP position in relation to the rest of his party?

While I'm blabbering, anyone have any tips on improving situational awareness, especially as it pertains to monks? After 6 beta weekends I've gotten a little better (i.e. I don't usually get so wrapped up in my healing efforts that I fail to notice I was turned into road kill by some warrior 5 minutes ago), but I've got a lot to learn in this area. How do you balance the need to watch your party's health bars with the need to notice you're standing in the middle of an elementalist's Fire Storm?

Spooky · Feb 26, 2005, 12:59 AM // 00:59

The best position for a Monk to be in would have to be Lion's Arch, down by the beach, relaxing. But if it has to be whereabouts in PvP - then chances are, you're not going to want to be in the front or back, but somewhere in the middle. Reason being, a while back changes were made to effect casting ranges - they are now shorter - and because of this, Monks really can't afford to hang in the back. Sometimes a second is all you've got to determine if a teammate lives or dies, and if you find yourself running to get within range instead of casting, then it's already too late.
Part of this is psychological as well - if the other team sees a Monk primary or secondary that is purposely hanging back, then it is a fair assumption that they are strictly healing, and have little if anything in terms of offense or self defense. Being situated in the middle also makes it easier for teammates to notice your situation and respond to it.

As for helping awareness.. here's what I do when i'm playing a healer:
Let's say we've got two healers running in the Guild for that night. We structure the party invites so that our list ends up like so:
1) Player
2) Player
3) Player
4) Healer
5) Player
6) Player
7) Player
8) Healer
With this setup, the Monk in position four is responsible for healing themselves, and the three players above them. Likewise, Monk 8 heals themselves and players 5 - 7.
With only four players to have to look after, you'll be able to spend a lot less time staring at the red bars - and your overall efficiency at healing will benefit as well, since you need not worry about two healers targetting the same person while someone else dies.

Duality · Feb 26, 2005, 01:20 AM // 01:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spooky

Sometimes a second is all you've got to determine if a teammate lives or dies, and if you find yourself running to get within range instead of casting, then it's already too late.

yeah, and if you are taking a lot of damage and try to run, don't run -away- from your healer(s). i don't mean sit on top of them, but at least get in their range. we actually had one of our healers drawing on our map showing the limit of our range to the rest so they'd know when they needed to be if they expected help.

Dragou Du Porzan · Feb 26, 2005, 02:36 AM // 02:36

That's a clever idea about getting the monks in certain party slots so they only have to worry about half the group! I'll have to try that some time when I'm in a group with two healers.

Right now I pretty much cut the difference like you suggested, although I think I still tend to play a bit too cautious and end up having to run forward to heal somebody (which, as you said, usually means I'm too late). My problem is I'm anticipating being the target right off the bat and end up putting myself too much on the defensive at the start of the match. Of course that's precisely when you need to be in healing range of everybody because any good opposing group is going to lead off with a concentrated salvo, and you need to be in position to react wherever it comes.

On the other hand, I've seen a number of monks who kind of throw themselves to the wolves so to speak, thrusting themselves right out there at the start with little concern for their own well-being. They tend to end up splattered pretty quickly. Obviously there needs to be a balance, something like "5 paces back from the front line". Too bad I can't test it in-game for another month.

Terphin · Feb 26, 2005, 02:43 AM // 02:43

For me it's definately the advantage of being able to give each monk priority over who they have to heal and who they don't. As spooky already said making the healing much more effecient.

Also if people do decide to rush your monk that is positioned in the middle, they will find themselves very quickly under focused fire as the group will be close by instead of having to leave the front line and charge all the way back to defend your monk.

Freyas · Feb 26, 2005, 05:56 AM // 05:56

I definately being in the middle of the group as a healer. If you're far back, you'll end up losing people who get too far in front of you, and if you're too far forward, you're definately going to be seeing the pointy ends of several swords in the first few seconds of the battle. You can move from the spot your standing when in battle- if the enemy has several warriors attacking you, you can slow down their damage considerably by running around in circles, especially cutting close corners around your party members... just don't forget to heal while you're running around.

Similarly, if you're not a healer and getting focused, running in circles while in the range of your healers is far better than making a beeline away from them. The healers won't be able to help you out once you get a little ways away, while if you stay relatively close, they can bail you out. Running around in circles has the same effect as running in a straight line, has the advantage of occasionally dodging projectile attacks, and keeps you in range of your healers.... on the other hand, if you've got half their team chasing you, it can sometimes be strategic to lead them away and sacrifice yourself to give your teammates the opportunity to fight 7vs4.

Shrapnel_Magnet · Feb 26, 2005, 09:52 AM // 09:52

I agree with the running when targeted... I usually frequent the Arena's so it's limited to 4v4... As I've been playing a Ranger in the BWE's recently, every once in a while, some Warrior will take it upon himself to target me and me ONLY. lol, I simply run as I know that I can't just stand there unless I'm @ 100% health already.

Either way, it's annoying but I figure that if I can take the Warrior out of the battle by running far away or circling in some areas where my team is, then my role as a "support" character is somewhat fulfilled. As a monk, however, you are pretty important to the team, whereas the Ranger is disposable (sometimes).

I find myself looking for vantage points over the monk where I can attack and be less noticable. So as a Monk, you should always try to know where the enemy is and where he might be going. If you see someone on the map running in a weird direction, try and figure out why... unless he's really green and has no idea what to do, but that should be apparant soon enough.

Overall, I have next to ZERO experience with the monk so I really can't comment, but I still do, regardless, :P

Thundermaine Hilts · Feb 26, 2005, 11:56 AM // 11:56

Strategically the Monk/? character should be positioned within the fighting formation in the middle, with the Ranger/? characters close by... Always try for the high ground overlooking the battlefield if open spaces, if in woods, or town then by tree or building to cut the LOS of the people you are fighting against. The most important thing to remember is that if you work your spells correctly and work as a team with the other players in your Guild or group you should do fine.

Peace, and look for this Ranger/Monk, adventure well,

Thundermaine

Keramon · Feb 26, 2005, 04:28 PM // 16:28

I at huge opposition with the philosphy of healer 1 heals 1-4 Healer 2 heals 5-8. It really does not work under intense pressure. I played DAOC for a long time where people do not live anywhere near as long and, it was here that I first got my inkling of this not being an effective setup. Sure, we all tried it, but i would much rather have healing overlap rather than relying on another healer to take care of 1-4..... Sorry Spooky.

What happens when you get backfired, interrupted, are getting focus fired on, dazed etc... If healer two is jsut concentrating on 5-8 and expecting healer 1 to take care of 1-4, then you are going to have some serious issues. Even if you say that if anyone is below 50% then it is both healer's responsibilities... then I think you have lost some precious seconds, all of which are invaluable in intense PvP. I have tried many combinations of the above, since it seems like such a sound concept... In practice however, the reality is very different.

Now positioning ... Middle without a doubt. Now as to running, that is something my monk only does when I am out of energy (which almost never happens), thanks to my spell setup. I think as a Monk, stay in the center and absorb the damage, and rely on your group to help you out. I may be biased however, I had a build that enjoyed being focus fired on (as long as a mesmer was not in the action). I think I lasted around 30 seconds with a team of 8 on me and one of them was using blackout. I died when trying an 8 second rez. The number of times 4 warriors gave up trying to kill me was stunning, and I was not only healing myself, but the party as well.

It is one thing that I really think needs to be addressed. I think healing is a little too powerful in its current form. Healing and Damage Prevention spells seem to exceed damage output by a long shot. I think healing should be more, however, I think it is skewed in the favour of monks currently too much.

Xapti · Feb 26, 2005, 04:41 PM // 16:41

In GvG, the map is pretty linear, so hanging in the back is pretty safe I'd say. Just want to make sure you can heal the person the furthest up.

I find it's works somewhat good to hide behind stuff if you are strictly a healer, or even just keep your back towards a wall so they can't tell what team yoru on as easily (if you're rather general looking, and aren't against a team that knows their players too well)

If you're using skills like restore life, healing touch, etc. then chances are you'd want to be right in the middle of combat. Alot of Capture the relic and PvP (non-1v1) situations it's important to stay in the middle as well, since players on both teams are scattered all about like mad.

Position is really only important if you are strictly healer/supporter though I'd say.

And keramon I'm in your position 100%. Except I don't think healing itself is what's really overpowered, it's enchantments which offer or improve healing which are powerful, which of course can easily be broken.

Keramon · Feb 26, 2005, 05:07 PM // 17:07

Xapti,

Very true, I was using a number of enhancements, all of which were used on my team and myself. Still, alot of the enchantments I used had short recycle times (which reduces this effect) unless they get rended with perfect timing. The mesmer was still the only true bane.

There was one fight (strangely I didn't hit many Mesmers) ... and I assume it was a backfire hit just as I was in a 3 quick cast cycle and I died in about 2 seconds. Just as I saw the damage land, I was dead.... that a byproduct of very good timing and my bad.

Vermilion Okeanos · Feb 26, 2005, 05:32 PM // 17:32

I don't believe the monk should be "generalize" as each monk have their own purpose... instead of finding out what generally where a monk should be, people should focus more on "what their monk are" and hence place themselves in the most beneficial spot.

IceD'Bear · Feb 26, 2005, 05:54 PM // 17:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spooky

The best position for a Monk to be in would have to be Lion's Arch, down by the beach, relaxing.

The Watchtover Coast beach is much prettier then the LA beach...once you get rid of the mergoyles

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keramon

What happens when you get backfired, interrupted, are getting focus fired on, dazed etc...

The you start sreaming over the voice com :P
Or if you are in a pick-up team ctrl+click on Backfire etc.

BE|Dac · Feb 26, 2005, 06:21 PM // 18:21

Personally it all depends...
usually monks hang back, and if there are aoe spells like wards, stick semi together.... otherwise 3 monks in the back.

THis is what Fi etc use...

you gain health by stayin in the back.

Keramon · Feb 26, 2005, 06:26 PM // 18:26

Yes, I am not saying you can't get rid of those conditions/interrupts etc ... but it is valuable seconds lost ... and those seconds are all important in competitive PvP.
If you played a healer in the old days of DAOC, havn't played for 18 months so no idea what it is like now, you would see how the effects of a 1-4, 5-8 strategy work under pressure, and my main point is ... not very well.
Keeping people alive in GW is considerably easier.... but it is when you take an idea to its limits and put it under pressure that you really see how well it works and if there are flaws.
I would like to see each of the group members targetable by bindable keys however.

Shrapnel_Magnet · Feb 26, 2005, 06:39 PM // 18:39

I think in terms of Positioning, Spooky's order is pretty good though. Having One monk hanging back and one monk right in the middle is probably not a bad idea, but I do agree that a 1-4, 5-8 healing strat could fall apart. I just like the positions.

Feb 26, 2005, 12:00 AM // 00:00	#1
Dragou Du Porzan Frost Gate Guardian Join Date: Feb 2005 Profession: Mo/	Monk positioning & awareness in PvP We all know that everyone is going to pile on the enemy monk as soon as the PvP match starts. I knew what I was getting into when I signed up for this thankless job, and I'm prepared to accept it. Heck, I'll embrace it, taunting my foes while they trip over their feet trying to gang up on me. The problem is that's not so impressive when they actually do gang up on me and beat me to a bloody pulp. Most embarrassing. That's where the positioning question comes in: as a monk, where exactly should you try to position yourself once the battle commences? I hear you: "As far back as possible!" But doesn't that isolate you from possible support from your party, giving sneaky warriors the chance to come up from behind and cut you off from your group? Would you be better off staying more to the front in an effort to stick by the warriors you're trying to keep alive (and in turn giving them a chance to aid you)? What's your take on a monk's optimal PvP position in relation to the rest of his party? While I'm blabbering, anyone have any tips on improving situational awareness, especially as it pertains to monks? After 6 beta weekends I've gotten a little better (i.e. I don't usually get so wrapped up in my healing efforts that I fail to notice I was turned into road kill by some warrior 5 minutes ago), but I've got a lot to learn in this area. How do you balance the need to watch your party's health bars with the need to notice you're standing in the middle of an elementalist's Fire Storm?

Feb 26, 2005, 05:56 AM // 05:56	#6
Freyas Champion of the Absurd Join Date: Jan 2005 Guild: Spirits of War Profession: Mo/W	I definately being in the middle of the group as a healer. If you're far back, you'll end up losing people who get too far in front of you, and if you're too far forward, you're definately going to be seeing the pointy ends of several swords in the first few seconds of the battle. You can move from the spot your standing when in battle- if the enemy has several warriors attacking you, you can slow down their damage considerably by running around in circles, especially cutting close corners around your party members... just don't forget to heal while you're running around. Similarly, if you're not a healer and getting focused, running in circles while in the range of your healers is far better than making a beeline away from them. The healers won't be able to help you out once you get a little ways away, while if you stay relatively close, they can bail you out. Running around in circles has the same effect as running in a straight line, has the advantage of occasionally dodging projectile attacks, and keeps you in range of your healers.... on the other hand, if you've got half their team chasing you, it can sometimes be strategic to lead them away and sacrifice yourself to give your teammates the opportunity to fight 7vs4. __________________ Freyas- Spirits of War ~The best lack all conviction, while the worst are full of passionate intensity

Feb 26, 2005, 09:52 AM // 09:52	#7
Shrapnel_Magnet Pirate? Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: British Columbia, Canada Guild: Idiot Savants Profession: R/	I agree with the running when targeted... I usually frequent the Arena's so it's limited to 4v4... As I've been playing a Ranger in the BWE's recently, every once in a while, some Warrior will take it upon himself to target me and me ONLY. lol, I simply run as I know that I can't just stand there unless I'm @ 100% health already. Either way, it's annoying but I figure that if I can take the Warrior out of the battle by running far away or circling in some areas where my team is, then my role as a "support" character is somewhat fulfilled. As a monk, however, you are pretty important to the team, whereas the Ranger is disposable (sometimes). I find myself looking for vantage points over the monk where I can attack and be less noticable. So as a Monk, you should always try to know where the enemy is and where he might be going. If you see someone on the map running in a weird direction, try and figure out why... unless he's really green and has no idea what to do, but that should be apparant soon enough. Overall, I have next to ZERO experience with the monk so I really can't comment, but I still do, regardless, :P __________________ Show Some Beta Love!

Feb 26, 2005, 04:28 PM // 16:28	#9
Keramon Rogue Agent Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Surfers Paradise	I at huge opposition with the philosphy of healer 1 heals 1-4 Healer 2 heals 5-8. It really does not work under intense pressure. I played DAOC for a long time where people do not live anywhere near as long and, it was here that I first got my inkling of this not being an effective setup. Sure, we all tried it, but i would much rather have healing overlap rather than relying on another healer to take care of 1-4..... Sorry Spooky. What happens when you get backfired, interrupted, are getting focus fired on, dazed etc... If healer two is jsut concentrating on 5-8 and expecting healer 1 to take care of 1-4, then you are going to have some serious issues. Even if you say that if anyone is below 50% then it is both healer's responsibilities... then I think you have lost some precious seconds, all of which are invaluable in intense PvP. I have tried many combinations of the above, since it seems like such a sound concept... In practice however, the reality is very different. Now positioning ... Middle without a doubt. Now as to running, that is something my monk only does when I am out of energy (which almost never happens), thanks to my spell setup. I think as a Monk, stay in the center and absorb the damage, and rely on your group to help you out. I may be biased however, I had a build that enjoyed being focus fired on (as long as a mesmer was not in the action). I think I lasted around 30 seconds with a team of 8 on me and one of them was using blackout. I died when trying an 8 second rez. The number of times 4 warriors gave up trying to kill me was stunning, and I was not only healing myself, but the party as well. It is one thing that I really think needs to be addressed. I think healing is a little too powerful in its current form. Healing and Damage Prevention spells seem to exceed damage output by a long shot. I think healing should be more, however, I think it is skewed in the favour of monks currently too much. __________________ Keramon :cool:

Feb 26, 2005, 04:41 PM // 16:41	#10
Xapti Frost Gate Guardian Join Date: Feb 2005 Profession: Mo/	In GvG, the map is pretty linear, so hanging in the back is pretty safe I'd say. Just want to make sure you can heal the person the furthest up. I find it's works somewhat good to hide behind stuff if you are strictly a healer, or even just keep your back towards a wall so they can't tell what team yoru on as easily (if you're rather general looking, and aren't against a team that knows their players too well) If you're using skills like restore life, healing touch, etc. then chances are you'd want to be right in the middle of combat. Alot of Capture the relic and PvP (non-1v1) situations it's important to stay in the middle as well, since players on both teams are scattered all about like mad. Position is really only important if you are strictly healer/supporter though I'd say. And keramon I'm in your position 100%. Except I don't think healing itself is what's really overpowered, it's enchantments which offer or improve healing which are powerful, which of course can easily be broken. Last edited by Xapti; Feb 26, 2005 at 04:44 PM // 16:44..

Feb 26, 2005, 12:59 AM // 00:59	#2
Spooky Bokusatsu Tenshi Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bellevue, WA Guild: KEA Profession: E/Mo	The best position for a Monk to be in would have to be Lion's Arch, down by the beach, relaxing. But if it has to be whereabouts in PvP - then chances are, you're not going to want to be in the front or back, but somewhere in the middle. Reason being, a while back changes were made to effect casting ranges - they are now shorter - and because of this, Monks really can't afford to hang in the back. Sometimes a second is all you've got to determine if a teammate lives or dies, and if you find yourself running to get within range instead of casting, then it's already too late. Part of this is psychological as well - if the other team sees a Monk primary or secondary that is purposely hanging back, then it is a fair assumption that they are strictly healing, and have little if anything in terms of offense or self defense. Being situated in the middle also makes it easier for teammates to notice your situation and respond to it. As for helping awareness.. here's what I do when i'm playing a healer: Let's say we've got two healers running in the Guild for that night. We structure the party invites so that our list ends up like so: 1) Player 2) Player 3) Player 4) Healer 5) Player 6) Player 7) Player 8) Healer With this setup, the Monk in position four is responsible for healing themselves, and the three players above them. Likewise, Monk 8 heals themselves and players 5 - 7. With only four players to have to look after, you'll be able to spend a lot less time staring at the red bars - and your overall efficiency at healing will benefit as well, since you need not worry about two healers targetting the same person while someone else dies.

Feb 26, 2005, 02:36 AM // 02:36	#4
Dragou Du Porzan Frost Gate Guardian Join Date: Feb 2005 Profession: Mo/	That's a clever idea about getting the monks in certain party slots so they only have to worry about half the group! I'll have to try that some time when I'm in a group with two healers. Right now I pretty much cut the difference like you suggested, although I think I still tend to play a bit too cautious and end up having to run forward to heal somebody (which, as you said, usually means I'm too late). My problem is I'm anticipating being the target right off the bat and end up putting myself too much on the defensive at the start of the match. Of course that's precisely when you need to be in healing range of everybody because any good opposing group is going to lead off with a concentrated salvo, and you need to be in position to react wherever it comes. On the other hand, I've seen a number of monks who kind of throw themselves to the wolves so to speak, thrusting themselves right out there at the start with little concern for their own well-being. They tend to end up splattered pretty quickly. Obviously there needs to be a balance, something like "5 paces back from the front line". Too bad I can't test it in-game for another month.

Feb 26, 2005, 02:43 AM // 02:43	#5
Terphin Banned Join Date: Feb 2005	For me it's definately the advantage of being able to give each monk priority over who they have to heal and who they don't. As spooky already said making the healing much more effecient. Also if people do decide to rush your monk that is positioned in the middle, they will find themselves very quickly under focused fire as the group will be close by instead of having to leave the front line and charge all the way back to defend your monk.

Feb 26, 2005, 11:56 AM // 11:56	#8
Thundermaine Hilts Ascalonian Squire Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Tallahassee, Florida	Strategically the Monk/? character should be positioned within the fighting formation in the middle, with the Ranger/? characters close by... Always try for the high ground overlooking the battlefield if open spaces, if in woods, or town then by tree or building to cut the LOS of the people you are fighting against. The most important thing to remember is that if you work your spells correctly and work as a team with the other players in your Guild or group you should do fine. Peace, and look for this Ranger/Monk, adventure well, Thundermaine

Feb 26, 2005, 05:07 PM // 17:07	#11
Keramon Rogue Agent Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Surfers Paradise	Xapti, Very true, I was using a number of enhancements, all of which were used on my team and myself. Still, alot of the enchantments I used had short recycle times (which reduces this effect) unless they get rended with perfect timing. The mesmer was still the only true bane. There was one fight (strangely I didn't hit many Mesmers) ... and I assume it was a backfire hit just as I was in a 3 quick cast cycle and I died in about 2 seconds. Just as I saw the damage land, I was dead.... that a byproduct of very good timing and my bad. __________________ Keramon :cool: Last edited by Keramon; Feb 26, 2005 at 05:11 PM // 17:11..

Feb 26, 2005, 05:32 PM // 17:32	#12
Vermilion Okeanos Forge Runner Join Date: Feb 2005	I don't believe the monk should be "generalize" as each monk have their own purpose... instead of finding out what generally where a monk should be, people should focus more on "what their monk are" and hence place themselves in the most beneficial spot.

Feb 26, 2005, 06:21 PM // 18:21	#14
BE\|Dac Banned Join Date: Feb 2005	Personally it all depends... usually monks hang back, and if there are aoe spells like wards, stick semi together.... otherwise 3 monks in the back. THis is what Fi etc use... you gain health by stayin in the back.

Feb 26, 2005, 06:26 PM // 18:26	#15
Keramon Rogue Agent Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Surfers Paradise	Yes, I am not saying you can't get rid of those conditions/interrupts etc ... but it is valuable seconds lost ... and those seconds are all important in competitive PvP. If you played a healer in the old days of DAOC, havn't played for 18 months so no idea what it is like now, you would see how the effects of a 1-4, 5-8 strategy work under pressure, and my main point is ... not very well. Keeping people alive in GW is considerably easier.... but it is when you take an idea to its limits and put it under pressure that you really see how well it works and if there are flaws. I would like to see each of the group members targetable by bindable keys however. __________________ Keramon :cool:

Feb 26, 2005, 06:39 PM // 18:39	#16
Shrapnel_Magnet Pirate? Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: British Columbia, Canada Guild: Idiot Savants Profession: R/	I think in terms of Positioning, Spooky's order is pretty good though. Having One monk hanging back and one monk right in the middle is probably not a bad idea, but I do agree that a 1-4, 5-8 healing strat could fall apart. I just like the positions. __________________ Show Some Beta Love!