> Forest of True Sight > Questions & Answers Reload this Page Beating Hack0rs With a Stick Part Deux!
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Old Apr 05, 2005, 07:24 AM // 07:24   #1
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Default Beating Hack0rs With a Stick Part Deux!

I was asked to create a new poll- and so, a new poll is here.

Well I posted in the recent thread about possible hackers in the game ruining it because there is no monthly fee. The suggestion I had no one responded to. So I thought I'd make a poll just to see what you all think. Keep in mind im not attatched to any game developer or anything I am simply creating the possibility of bot prevention.

This would IMO help prevent a loot bot.

What if:
when you zoned into / or out of a town- you had to enter in a 4 or 5 digit alphanumeric code that was randomized by the server. So if I started a bot that was meant to go out and search / kill for items and I had to go back into town to sell theres pretty much no way a bot is going to be able to pick out the random number placed on the screen. Much like you have to do now when you sign up for many forums. This shouldnt be too difficult to code since the code like it oviously exists for forums.

I am just looking for feedback here.

I know that it wouldnt bother me to take .5 seconds to type in a random number or similar in an attempt to keep out money launderers.

Whatcha think?

Below you will see a post which upholds what I am attemping to help prevent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sausaletus Rex
Make no mistake, bots can be used in GW. As people have suggested, the main draw is to acrue items and wealth. As long as there exists a secondary market - your Ebay, your IGE, and anywhere else where real game items will be traded for real world cash - then there's an incentive for people to figure out the best way of grinding out items and gold. And what better way is there than to have a program do it for you?

Bots can be made, bots have been made, to farm in GW. As long as there's at least the perception that it takes time to get the equipment or the money that you need, then they'll continue to be used. The instanced system doesn't prevent this at all, if anything it makes it easier. There's no one in your instance to report you to a GM. There's no one to interfere with your bot. There's no one to steal kills from or anything else that normally gives bots a bad names. No, bots can quietly and quickly farm and pile up massive amounts of loot. And what that does, as has been said, is to wreck the ecconomy. If some people, those who can run or who can obtain the benefit of running bots, can pile up gold piece after gold piece while you have to grind them out then pretty soon, gold becomes meaningless. The work you'd have to put into getting the gold to actually trade for something of value is insanely high and your only reasonable recourse is to run a bot yourself or to run to an online auction store. The same goes for items as long. As the game includes any sort of scarcity and rarity to give those items value - if you can't just get anything you want right away - then there's going to be a desire for a shortcut. Think about how often gold dropped last BWE, think about how much a full set of max armor would cost you, then think about whether or not you'd be willing to use a program that let you get that gold in a fraction of the time. That's where bots come from.

If you think that's it's impossible or that it hasn't happened, you're wrong. Alphas have made, tested, bots and, indeed, have been encouraged to by the developers so that defenses could be made agaisnt such things. You might remember that at one point there was a hotkey to "target nearest item", a key you could press that selected the closest drop or something along those lines. There's another hotkey to pick up that item. Such things made developing a bot to collect drops a fairly simple matter. Remember that GW has been designed to run as a window or alt-tabbed out of so that people can run things like IRC or Instant Messanger or Ventrillo in the background more easily as they play, using "3rd party" software with GW isn't a big deal in the first place, all you have to know is a bit about how to program such things. The select nearest item hotkey was subsequently removed from the game along with a lot of other changes. But that's only made the job of Botters or people who'll come up with programs that will, say, let you toggle the function of holding down CTRL during PvP or programs that will ping every taget on your mini-map or help you scan for Monks or whatever else you might think of just a little bit harder. No system's perfect, certainly not one as open and accessable as the interface for GW, there'll always be flaws and gaps that people can exploit.

I know, without doubt, that some alphas, some guilds have run such bots and used them to gain an advantage. This was long ago, there's little need for such things now, but once the game is released, there will be again. Items are a significant part of your character. Gold is valuable and used to purchase your skills and armor. Don't believe for one second that farming well can't lead to success. War Machine won their Top 5 prize largely due to the fact that they had a few members already in the alpha who used the time leading up to the ladder competition to farm like mad. I've even heard fairly viscious, though I'll stress unsubstantiated, rumors to the effect that they were running bots in order to do so. It can happen, it does happen, and it will happen, if there's any advantage to be drawn from botting and other "hacks". As of now, it looks like there's going to be significant advantage to be drawn from such things, despite ANet's best efforts. The best to hope for is that they'll be quick to respond and eliminate the problems as they occur because it's getting a bit late to deal with the fundamental underlying causes and attack the problem from the demand side rather than the supply side.

Last edited by Darkmane; Apr 05, 2005 at 07:27 AM // 07:27..
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Old Apr 05, 2005, 09:06 AM // 09:06   #2
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In your previous thread (w/ the poll), I thought what you brought up was a great idea. It would keep the game consistant and make it better for true gamers to play without having to worry about the game economy going ka-poot! I can't stand the idea of lazy bastages ruining the game for those that really want to play and make it worth their while.

I whole heartedly agree with Rex too, not that I know tons about how bots work but because it makes complete sense. It'd be great to find as many ways as possible to keep the arrogant from thrashing the games as long as the "powers that be" have time to invest (which I'm sure they've done plenty of to this point) in finding ways to prevent "hakors" from manipulating the GW and future expansions and games.

The devs deserve props though because they (I can only imagine) have put some serious backbone into putting up walls to every little thing they can think of, that would allow those that want to cheat, to create an enormous dis-service to Anet and NCSoft.
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Old Apr 05, 2005, 02:04 PM // 14:04   #3
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What about OCR software? I personally would find it annoying and what happens when you're in a party and you transition? Do you boot people who don't type the number in fast enough or force the rest of the party to wait?

If you worked at a company would you really want to have developers/testers/doc writers implement this knowing that a large percentage of your user base will dislike it and there is no guarantee that it will keep out bots anyway?

There are other ways to keep out bots that don't put the burden on their customers and will be far more effective...

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Old Apr 05, 2005, 05:10 PM // 17:10   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdwoody
What about OCR software? I personally would find it annoying and what happens when you're in a party and you transition? Do you boot people who don't type the number in fast enough or force the rest of the party to wait?

If you worked at a company would you really want to have developers/testers/doc writers implement this knowing that a large percentage of your user base will dislike it and there is no guarantee that it will keep out bots anyway?

There are other ways to keep out bots that don't put the burden on their customers and will be far more effective...
Thanks for the feedback.. and, originally I intended to make this a new poll by the request of someone that changed his mind. However when I posted the thread I got that 'page cannot be displayed' error and the new poll options never showed up. So I edited the post to try and add the poll, but the options to add the poll were not there. So then, I tried to delete the post entirely, but there was no option to delete it, only to edit. So - go figure. I'll just leave this thread the way it is now since other people have posted in it.

So what your saying is- you want to have people in your group that are afk or simply a possible bot or unable to navigate a 'reality check' so to speak. Personally grouping with people that do not respond a lil agitating and normally they do nothing to help the party. And usually you are waiting for that slow loader anyway. Maybe not having to enter a code when leaving a town but maybe entering a town, the slash I have seperating them was meant to be either/or, but .. both wouldnt' be entirely bad. Are you saying it will take us gamers 5 minutes to type in a number/letter sequence? I think not. If your getting ready to go out on a mission with your party -- you want your said healer to actually be heading to the nearest cafe shop to have tea or heading to work? Or simply afk and when you hit the first big battle your entire party dies?

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Old Apr 05, 2005, 05:22 PM // 17:22   #5
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I say let the bots try and do a mission with a party that I'm in.For one I'll be entertained watching the bot run in and getting slaughtered.In past games I made it a mission of mine to spot bots and get them killed.I got pretty good at spotting bots.And truly enjoyed the fact that I was able to weed out the undesirables.Seeing their corpses lying on the ground for an hour or more was a real treat.I've seen when they would use follow and then assist.Just take them to a remote spot and then log or find a nice group of mobs that will take that bot out.You can have all kinds of malicious fun with stupid bots.I say bring them on!
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Old Apr 05, 2005, 05:23 PM // 17:23   #6
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I think you'll see the same type of hackers that you see in any of the other mmo's. There were cheaters in DAoC, EQ, etc... Hopefully arena.net will be as vigilant in banning those people as the other companies are, maybe even more.

I don't think you'll see the same type of rampant cheating that you have in counterstrike, Diablo, etc... because most of the stuff is housed on the servers and not your computer, but people will still try and in some cases succeed. Let's just hope they aren't too successful.
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Old Apr 05, 2005, 06:38 PM // 18:38   #7
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Quote:
So what your saying is- you want to have people in your group that are afk
Two parts:

1) This won't stop all bots, somehow the server will need to send the number down to the clients, the bot writers can use this information to simulate the response.

2) This will annoy players, especially since as many have pointed out bots won't be nearly as useful as they are in other games. It will drain time away from developers/testers of the actual game, and introduces problems when you're partied with someone that is afk. Right now if someone is afk, while slightly annoying, is not a huge deal since they will transition with you.

You could almost put up with 2) if 1) wasn't there... (though for this particular game I wouldn't want to)


I think they could do away with bots completely by writing something that would randomly generate the client/server protocol and every 4 or 8 hours simply change the protocol, by the time the bot writers figured out the new protocol the bot could only run for a short amount of time before it would be obsolete. (with a bonus that your customers will never even know you're doing it!)
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Old Apr 05, 2005, 06:55 PM // 18:55   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdwoody
Two parts:

1) This won't stop all bots, somehow the server will need to send the number down to the clients, the bot writers can use this information to simulate the response.
Again--- If its a picture of a number why would it have to send the number to the client? It doesnt. Do you not remember signing up for this forum and having to enter in the numbers in the box? If you have forgotten head to a forum you've never been to and sign up. 90% of forums require authentication to keep auto signup bots from flooding the server.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdwoody
2) This will annoy players, especially since as many have pointed out bots won't be nearly as useful as they are in other games. It will drain time away from developers/testers of the actual game, and introduces problems when you're partied with someone that is afk. Right now if someone is afk, while slightly annoying, is not a huge deal since they will transition with you.

You could almost put up with 2) if 1) wasn't there... (though for this particular game I wouldn't want to)
I am sorry but IMO that is utter bull!@#$ It will be very useful to make money annoying players by simply having to enter in a short code? Personally I am willing to take that extra .5 seconds to type in a code or whatever to keep macro bots from accomplishing their goals. Maybe I should spell out exaclty how its done so that more people understand, but I'd rather not to keep it from being abused. I think that in this case where the small efort of entering in a few numbers far outweighs the the possibility of exploiting a macro bot to gain wealth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdwoody
I think they could do away with bots completely by writing something that would randomly generate the client/server protocol and every 4 or 8 hours simply change the protocol, by the time the bot writers figured out the new protocol the bot could only run for a short amount of time before it would be obsolete. (with a bonus that your customers will never even know you're doing it!)
Here you are talking about a totally different kind of exploit- sniffing the packets and exploiting vulnerabilities within. Macro bots simply playback your keystrokes and some can random events.

I am sorry but I still think my idea is a good idea.

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Last edited by Darkmane; Apr 05, 2005 at 06:58 PM // 18:58..
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Old Apr 05, 2005, 06:56 PM // 18:56   #9
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Yea, i actually agree highly with this random number/letter generator before entering into the missions, but then again... im running on cable and normaly wait for the slow loaders anyways, so i would have time to enter the code and be happily in the level. I don't know about that many people liking the idea, but sometimes i don't care about other people, when it comes to these people who will cheat in something like this. I say arenanet makes it part of their contract readables to not sell things for real money, and ban those that do... Mostly because the people that spend their real time getting these things won't want to let go so easily, and well... if you get these items from a bot you're definatly going to want to sell it... free money with no work. I don't know what arenanet is doing to try to spot these bots, because all they are, is a program that presses a button or clicking on something based on what happens in the game, so accoarding to the little i know about bots, they are incredibly hard to spot. Nobodies going to bot useless things, so it should be that much easier to know where the "bots" are going to be.
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Old Apr 05, 2005, 07:32 PM // 19:32   #10
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Quote:
Again--- If its a picture of a number why would it have to send the number to the client? It doesnt.
As far as I can tell the client is not a web browser, it doesn't pull graphics from the internet, it downloads content and uses it locally. Obviously I don't work for any of the companies involved, but I would guess that currently their server code doesn't generate random graphics and send them to the clients. This means your solution is a huge undertaking that will annoy people all over a problem that doesn't even exist yet.

Maybe if there was a mathematical proof that the squiggly numbers cannot ever be OCR'd that might sway me a little, but I think I'd still vote for more content and not having to type in the numbers...

Quote:
Here you are talking about a totally different kind of exploit- sniffing the packets and exploiting vulnerabilities within. Macro bots simply playback your keystrokes and some can random events.
Actually I was talking about bots that read the state of the world packets and generate commands to send back to the server, there isn't even a gui involved.
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Old Apr 05, 2005, 07:43 PM // 19:43   #11
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We should cover the other abuse though...People who will intentionally not type in the code or type it in wrong, when you leave or when you come back. I agree with something needing to be done that imposes some minimal burden on the legitmate players if this isn't dealt with at the programming level, such as what was suggested above about the protocols. I don't agree with the typing in of a code because...

-It does place the burden on the legitimate users.

-The code entry coming, going, in the middle, what or where ever can be abused in and of itself.

-Even a graphic numeric sequence can be identified so a bot could type in the code too.

-What botting has been done by the alphas for the programmers to develop protection systems appears to have been most effective from what Pharalon posted in your previous thread meaning that botting will be so insignificant it isn't worth making this kind of effort to protect against.

So my vote would stay the same if the choices were the same, and my reasons from the previous thread remain true as the part about Jeff Strain and crew is turning out to be accurate. As was also stated by Gaile that with the streaming tech they can address such exploits within 18 hours. I tend to believe that once the servers are running they will do all they can to make that timespan less by as much as is necessary if they see such an interest in botting only because they employed the streaming tech mechanism, have banked on it for the games success, and made it a selling point of GuildWars so they know they must use it--there will be no hesitance on Aren.net's part.

In fact every time they use it they get a marketing expense write-off because the streaming tech is part of the marketing thrust--in other words whatever they spend on fixing any exploit whatsoever increases their profit margins on the game. Tax incentives are amazingly powerful
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Old Apr 05, 2005, 07:49 PM // 19:49   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdwoody
As far as I can tell the client is not a web browser, it doesn't pull graphics from the internet, it downloads content and uses it locally.
Hmm well a browser is very much like any other client that connects to a server and requests content. Which is what the guildwars client does. I am not saying it does it exactly the same. What I AM saying is that the technology exists to implement into any program said technology. Its not like someone has to dream up code on how that would work. Its already here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdwoody
Obviously I don't work for any of the companies involved, but I would guess that currently their server code doesn't generate random graphics and send them to the clients. This means your solution is a huge undertaking that will annoy people all over a problem that doesn't even exist yet.
Again, trying to backtrack to fix a problem that is already admittedly available for use, is not the time to fix it. The time is now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdwoody
Maybe if there was a mathematical proof that the squiggly numbers cannot ever be OCR'd that might sway me a little, but I think I'd still vote for more content and not having to type in the numbers...
Well now you have me curious, even if you could OCR it, I think the program required to do that sort of thing and then respond by using the correct number sequence is currently technologically unfeasable. Regardless I will take a few samples of current forum signups and some from financial institutions over to my brothers house where they have a scanner and ocr software and see if it can pick up the letters/numbers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdwoody
Actually I was talking about bots that read the state of the world packets and generate commands to send back to the server, there isn't even a gui involved.
I am under the presumption that state of the world packets are almost near impossible to decipher. Again, this is not the kind of exploit I am talking about.

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Old Apr 05, 2005, 07:56 PM // 19:56   #13
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Would there be a way to pick up bot movements? Could a way be created to pick up patterns in player's controls or actions (like entering the same area 10 times in 2 hours )?I would be in favor of a system that does do a 5 digit/letter thing if it picks up suspicious behavior of the sort (exclude use in arena areas), but I wouldn't like being bugged every time I load a map with a code to enter in.
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Old Apr 05, 2005, 08:03 PM // 20:03   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nik The Barbarian
Would there be a way to pick up bot movements? Could a way be created to pick up patterns in player's controls or actions (like entering the same area 10 times in 2 hours )?I would be in favor of a system that does do a 5 digit/letter thing if it picks up suspicious behavior of the sort (exclude use in arena areas), but I wouldn't like being bugged every time I load a map with a code to enter in.

You bring up a point that I obviously didnt stress enough. I am not worried about a bot getting into an arena. I am worried about the one that gets into an area where they can sell and make money while no one is there.

You shouldnt need to do a 'reality check' as I call it now. when you go into an arena or even into a mission or explorable area. I am talking about coming into town or anywhere else you can sell your wears. And being able to automate that process.

I know enough about databases that if they tried to track everyones repetitive movements at any given time or even a specified time, their servers would probably choke and die. Simply too many commands to collect and too many people to collect them from. I'd guess a terabyte in 2 minutes. And then you have to run your script to check for suspicous anomolies -As I am not a programmer.. I do not know this for sure.. but I'm pretty sure it would be near impossible.

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Old Apr 05, 2005, 08:09 PM // 20:09   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sin
We should cover the other abuse though...People who will intentionally not type in the code or type it in wrong, when you leave or when you come back. I agree with something needing to be done that imposes some minimal burden on the legitmate players if this isn't dealt with at the programming level, such as what was suggested above about the protocols. I don't agree with the typing in of a code because...

-It does place the burden on the legitimate users.
I agree, yet a very small burden for a very real problem that can be avoided by a few keystrokes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sin
-The code entry coming, going, in the middle, what or where ever can be abused in and of itself.
I also agree, which means the 'reality check' is doing it's job.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sin
-Even a graphic numeric sequence can be identified so a bot could type in the code too.
You may be right, I am going to check out how easy it would actually be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sin
-What botting has been done by the alphas for the programmers to develop protection systems appears to have been most effective from what Pharalon posted in your previous thread meaning that botting will be so insignificant it isn't worth making this kind of effort to protect against.

So my vote would stay the same if the choices were the same, and my reasons from the previous thread remain true as the part about Jeff Strain and crew is turning out to be accurate. As was also stated by Gaile that with the streaming tech they can address such exploits within 18 hours. I tend to believe that once the servers are running they will do all they can to make that timespan less by as much as is necessary if they see such an interest in botting only because they employed the streaming tech mechanism, have banked on it for the games success, and made it a selling point of GuildWars so they know they must use it--there will be no hesitance on Aren.net's part.

In fact every time they use it they get a marketing expense write-off because the streaming tech is part of the marketing thrust--in other words whatever they spend on fixing any exploit whatsoever increases their profit margins on the game. Tax incentives are amazingly powerful
I do not doubt their desire to thwart the botters/hackers/sniffer/exploiters. I am simply pointing out that in the last two BWE's I played in. A macro bot would be simple to create and exploit money laundering. It is entirely possible that they already have something in mind to take care of said exploits.

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Last edited by Darkmane; Apr 05, 2005 at 09:09 PM // 21:09..
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Old Apr 05, 2005, 08:27 PM // 20:27   #16
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The entry of a code is a major burden. Have you ventured out lyon's arch to go to the seaboard? The bogs and fire imps sometimes will attack you right there. There's no time to type in a code. I need my team and I need them now. Sorry but don't give me some argument about laggers either. Laggers are far more frequent but remain legitimate users--in other words I am not going to just die because my character won't move until I type in a code while I am waiting for the rest of my teammates to load up, which also can't help me yet because they are typing in a code. Oh and that area to the seaboard or Ascalon settlment isn't the only exit portal where you can be attacked as you wallk out.

Then there are those...ug can't remember their name...They are part of the post-Lyon's Arch missions too, the ones that have the Protectors who heal them and with most groups they are far more than the group can handle. Well guess what usually happens?....one of us survives the onslaught that kills us 3 times, making every effort to rez our monk, etc. Well that survivor runs back, and oh yes, those ones I can't remember and the Protectors take chase, all the way back to where you came in. What code am i supposed to type?...Where?...Oh wait it doesn't matter I'M DEAD!

The idea something needs to be done may be great if Jeff Strain and company hasn't already addressed the problem adequately. However, then the plan of what needs to be done needs to be brainstormed more and not to just be ASSUMED not a burden because of your belief about us being in front of our keyboards as though that is only one aspect of the burden. The above instances I have described were intended to illustrate the other aspects of burden.
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Old Apr 05, 2005, 08:32 PM // 20:32   #17
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Exactly the code is a burden. And the loot bots would zip by it like a 6 legged hyena.


Your going to have to rely on strong anti-cheats to keep the game clear of lammers.

No way there going to let a little code stop them.
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Old Apr 05, 2005, 08:36 PM // 20:36   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sin
The entry of a code is a major burden. Have you ventured out lyon's arch to go to the seaboard? The bogs and fire imps sometimes will attack you right there. There's no time to type in a code. I need my team and I need them now. Sorry but don't give me some argument about laggers either. Laggers are far more frequent but remain legitimate users--in other words I am not going to just die because my character won't move until I type in a code while I am waiting for the rest of my teammates to load up, which also can't help me yet because they are typing in a code. Oh and that area to the seaboard or Ascalon settlment isn't the only exit portal where you can be attacked as you wallk out.
Yes I did venture out and quickly had my @$$ handed to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sin
Then there are those...ug can't remember their name...They are part of the post-Lyon's Arch missions too, the ones that have the Protectors who heal them and with most groups they are far more than the group can handle. Well guess what usually happens?....one of us survives the onslaught that kills us 3 times, making every effort to rez our monk, etc. Well that survivor runs back, and oh yes, those ones I can't remember and the Protectors take chase, all the way back to where you came in. What code am i supposed to type?...Where?...Oh wait it doesn't matter I'M DEAD!
This code does not have to be entered to stop game play .. here is how I imagine it working technically:

1. I approach the mist to get into town.
2. (just like it happens now) The town screen loads.
3. Before I can actually continue- after loading I must enter this code.
4. If I cant/refuse I am simply requested to do it two or three more times.
5. If I still cant/refuse then I am simply logged out. (like the macro using bot freak you are) --Theoretically of course and not meaning you as in you personally -
6. If said player was booted out because they could not enter the code, (to prevent the bot simply logging back into the game and into a town to sell)- Then said player must enter a different random code upon re-entering the game.

Still I do not see how entering a 4 digit code is this huge burden.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sin
The idea something needs to be done may be great if Jeff Strain and company hasn't already addressed the problem adequately. However, then the plan of what needs to be done needs to be brainstormed more and not to just be ASSUMED not a burden because of your belief about us being in front of our keyboards as though that is only one aspect of the burden. The above instances I have described were intended to illustrate the other aspects of burden.
I totally agree, it may have already been dealt with.

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Last edited by Darkmane; Apr 05, 2005 at 08:42 PM // 20:42.. Reason: fix quote/added
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Old Apr 05, 2005, 08:37 PM // 20:37   #19
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One suggestion, if I could, is that we post to the suggestion thread that they issue new codes to their designated Alpha and Beta testers (so as not to muck up their good numbers and accounts) and ask them to bot like hell this next BWE. It would appear to me that this BWE would be a good time to do that with the release around the corner. A good way to test what actions have been taken to detour, thwart, and deny the bot style cheater.
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Old Apr 05, 2005, 08:39 PM // 20:39   #20
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Quote:
What I AM saying is that the technology exists to implement into any program said technology. Its not like someone has to dream up code on how that would work. Its already here.
I understand it's possible, but I'm guessing that it's not trivial. It also opens up new ways for players to grief others. My vote goes for a non-obtrusive solution, if it's recorded mouse clicks you're worried about randomize the start location, sure it may be a bit disorientating but I think it's better than typing something in...

BTW - I fully support the title of your thread even if I don't fully support the method!
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