Are Necros and Mesmers the scourge of Tyria? - Page 3 - Guild Wars Forums

Theos · Nov 29, 2005, 10:23 PM // 22:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by xenoranger

I was noticing that most people hate necros (or so it seems). Very few actually accept them into a party. The same seems to be true of mesmers. I must either be in the wrong place or something?

Besides minion abilities, from what I've read, Necros have some of the best status inflecting abilities. Mesmers are great for Domination magic and inspiration magic keeps them going. Despite this, I have talked to a few friends who're are also either Me or N and they seem to have the same issues with getting into parties (even when they're at or 1 lvl below the highest in the party).

Thoughts?

Ugh... domination cookies is why people don't like Mesmers. You see a mesmer in pve and (if its not me) I can almost guarantee that person uses the "leetzor" Backfire and Chaos Storm skills. There is no variety in the mesmer players and a good ranger can easily out interupt any hackjob that calls themselves a Mesmer. As for getting into parties, most decent mesmers have guilds and parties are default, these types of mesmers also make their own groups and not sit around hoping some trinity-addict player will take them.

As for necros EVERYOEN wants them now, hell I see them spam SS Necro in ToA non stop. I still believe that SS is far to conditional to be worth the slot but hey thats just me and people will do anything to make money. A decent necro will use good combinations of skills/branches and you will be able to tell who is the standard "cookie from hell" or actually a decent player by what they run. Heck if you want to rout out "noobs" who don't like to think for themselves simply pose the question "Is Desecrate Enchantments good in UW?" if they answer no... then bye bye, if they answer yes than your on a good path. Then you can always ask "How do you kill mindblades?" as most pugs of "noobs" get simply crushed here as they rush in and fight!

PS: ANET give the Mindblades a shout that says "PWNEDZORED" after they wipe out an entire party... please.

.defekt · Nov 29, 2005, 11:07 PM // 23:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Sonya

Yes because Necros and Mesmers are basically "support" characters, they aren't well known for "instant damage"

You have obviously never played a Necromancer before. In the Random Arenas with a Necro build I use, I can out-tank a tank. Necromancers are one of the best class for damage dealing.

Try making a Necro Spike in Team Arenas, you will realise how good Necros are when they do 400~ damage in a few seconds.

warren_kn · Nov 29, 2005, 11:42 PM // 23:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by .defekt

You have obviously never played a Necromancer before. In the Random Arenas with a Necro build I use, I can out-tank a tank. Necromancers are one of the best class for damage dealing.

Try making a Necro Spike in Team Arenas, you will realise how good Necros are when they do 400~ damage in a few seconds.

Blood Necros are pretty good tanks in PvE as well. They can hold out long enough for the party to regroup if they get into trouble.

Back to the original topic, I used to have trouble getting into groups with my necro, but it has become increasingly easier in the last couple of months. It's as if people have had a "eureka" moment regarding Necros. I made a ranger as well a couple of weeks ago and havent had any problems with him. Maybe I should do a Mesmer as well...

lg5000 · Nov 29, 2005, 11:46 PM // 23:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Theos

Ugh... domination cookies is why people don't like Mesmers. You see a mesmer in pve and (if its not me) I can almost guarantee that person uses the "leetzor" Backfire and Chaos Storm skills. There is no variety in the mesmer players and a good ranger can easily out interupt any hackjob that calls themselves a Mesmer. As for getting into parties, most decent mesmers have guilds and parties are default, these types of mesmers also make their own groups and not sit around hoping some trinity-addict player will take them.

Hm.. Backfire, used correctly, does a lot of damage and I was amazed that human players cast through it. However, currently I'm set up for energy denial, so backfire is out of the skill bar. Chaos Storm got dropped way before the aoe nerf from my skills. I'll stand by using domination/inspiration though, I just CANT get the hang of illusion.

As for the ranger being able to interupt better than the mesmer, I'm having a few problems there.... see, I have a ranger with 1 interupt (he's only lvl14 atm) and I have problems interupting anything with it (other than the extra long ele spells) and I have my female mes. set up for pure interupt, and she does a great job interupting just about anything, am I not getting something with the ranger?

Oh.. and please tell me how a ranger is better at interupting than a well placed power block? How does disabling the titans ability to do severe damage for 12+ seconds sound in comparison to a rangers interupt?

Someone feel free to give me advise on the illusion line.. but.. shouldn't conjur phantasm NOT be used in the end game missions?

Hiryu · Nov 29, 2005, 11:50 PM // 23:50

The issue with Mesmers, Necros, and Rangers in PvE is probably two-fold.

1) They're a lot harder to understand for most newcomers to the game than the Warrior, Elementalist, and the Monk. Their abilties transcend the mundane staple "tank", "nuke", and "heal" combo that ploughs through so many other uninspired RPGs.

2) Because they're a lot harder to understand, they're also a lot harder to play to their full potential. So a lot of newcomers who try these classes often become more of a liability than a contribution to their team.

So: the newcomers recruit Monks, Warriors, and Elementalists because they don't really understand what Rangers, Mesmers and Necromancers do.

And a bunch of the more experienced players don't recruit Rangers, Mesmers, and Necromancers because they're afraid that their Rangers, Mesmers, and Necromancers will be unskilled and will not make any significant contribution to the team (or even endanger the team at worst).

Personally, I think using Necros as batteries is a huge waste. They can do so much more. Energy management shouldn't be a problem in PvE in the first place.

Anyone who has ever played some high level PvP against Rangers/Necros/Mesmers, would be able to testify how important and powerful they really are.

Carinae · Nov 30, 2005, 12:44 AM // 00:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Sonya

Yes because Necros and Mesmers are basically "support" characters, they aren't well known for "instant damage" which in tournaments is very important. That's not to say they aren't great support characters, but, most people are melding their primary "instant damage" characters with these support 2ndaries. Like Ele/Mes or Ele/N or Mo/N or M/Mes or W/Mes (my choice) or R/N or R/Mes

So a puriest Necro or Mesmer even with a instand damage 2ndary is not as good as a primary instant damager. Sorry, you're just built mainly for the adventure game, that is all.

You've never played a Blood Necro have you? The claims of 400+ damage in a few seconds are NOT exageratted. And what's more: Much of that damage is Life Steal! So you have self-healed while attacking.

There are at least two popular Blood (attack) builds I can think of now: "8x68" and "Blood/FoC spike".

A Blood Necro running at 18/19 Blood HURTS REALLY BAD. And they are hard as hell to kill.

I have stood toe-to-toe against two warriors in CA and killed them both without being worried. Then the shit talk started. "That necro killed us", "just wait till I am ressed, YOU'RE DEAD."

So I walked over to the res shrine and waited. When they ressed, I gave them both another dirt-nap. Then the "HAX!" cries began.

I will say that Necro's are complicated. They aren't point and shoot. You need to think about wha you're doing, and that's probably why they aren't popular besides support.

Theos · Nov 30, 2005, 12:59 AM // 00:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by lg5000

Hm.. Backfire, used correctly, does a lot of damage and I was amazed that human players cast through it. However, currently I'm set up for energy denial, so backfire is out of the skill bar. Chaos Storm got dropped way before the aoe nerf from my skills. I'll stand by using domination/inspiration though, I just CANT get the hang of illusion.

As for the ranger being able to interupt better than the mesmer, I'm having a few problems there.... see, I have a ranger with 1 interupt (he's only lvl14 atm) and I have problems interupting anything with it (other than the extra long ele spells) and I have my female mes. set up for pure interupt, and she does a great job interupting just about anything, am I not getting something with the ranger?

Oh.. and please tell me how a ranger is better at interupting than a well placed power block? How does disabling the titans ability to do severe damage for 12+ seconds sound in comparison to a rangers interupt?

Someone feel free to give me advise on the illusion line.. but.. shouldn't conjur phantasm NOT be used in the end game missions?

Backfire is rarely used correctly, people just use it as soon as they enter battle and look at big numbers. Also your energy denial is not a cookie, few ever are as they take actual brain cells to use. Also the damage on backfire can be voided easily by a compitent monk.

As for rangers, they have alot of very nice interupts. Want to see your target never cast a spell again? Try quick shot + chocking gas, or why not just old Incediary with Tiger's fury. Distracting Shot is a very good interupt with only 10 seconds of recharge, not interupting anything with it is just a lack of experience. Rangers also have punishing shot, savage shot, and the good old Concussion shot. Rangers and mesmers have about the same number of interupts but the rangers can use them far more often than a mesmer, especially if the ranger packs Serpents. Its all about timing and recharge, true a power block can't be out done but hey its 30 seconds of recharge and if you miss.... well

As for the titans, the ranger can interupt everything so while power block may render one titan useless, a potent ranger can render several titans useless or near useless.

lg5000 · Nov 30, 2005, 01:05 AM // 01:05

Hehe, sounds like I'm gonna end up enjoying playing this ranger after all.. he's only just got to LA, so.. thanks heaps for the info

Zobi · Nov 30, 2005, 01:22 AM // 01:22

I love both my Ranger and Mesmer equally. However, I completely disgaree with what Theos says about Mesmer players, and, in truth, found him extremely offensive.

People SEEK OUT my Domination Memser for groups, (those who know how effective they can be), such as in FoW, as they know what strong characters they can be.

I can only assume that Theos has had some bad experiences and tars everyone with the same brush.

I'll admit that there are many bad Eles, for example, out there, but that doesn't mean that I would rubbish an entire line and never play with one again. It all depends on the person playing the toon.

Theos · Nov 30, 2005, 01:38 AM // 01:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zobi

I love both my Ranger and Mesmer equally. However, I completely disgaree with what Theos says about Mesmer players, and, in truth, found him extremely offensive.

People SEEK OUT my Domination Memser for groups, (those who know how effective they can be), such as in FoW, as they know what strong characters they can be.

I can only assume that Theos has had some bad experiences and tars everyone with the same brush.

I'll admit that there are many bad Eles, for example, out there, but that doesn't mean that I would rubbish an entire line and never play with one again. It all depends on the person playing the toon.

You must realise I speak from the perspective of a mesmer, I have seen alot of bad bad players and I have spoken with them. Not to say that I know every view but I know many, so I am not stereotyping extremly, I am simply going by what I have seen and that is that atleast 90% of all mesmers are dom cookies.

Also this has nothing to do with Elementalists as there are far more players in that category, you need to realise that with the fact that mesmers are so few in numbers the rubbish I see on a day to day basis is not so easily dismisable.

As for Domination being sought out, if the people knew how much more potent a ranger is at interupting than a mesmer Domination may for once become something less "cookified", true rangers may have limitations such as barriers but hell not everything is perfect. I also doubt that many people even look for mesmers, much less for exactly yours, this is a simple fact but most people playing are simply of the trinity mindset and do not even look at mesmers. Also in FoW a mesmer is not even needed all that much, the standard echo MS will be enough to shut down the casters while the team simply "hacks" them to death. In the UW the mesmer is usually a good thing to have as MS is not as effective and the dryders are in far greater numbers... but from what I have seen the dom cookies have rarely done anything but stop an MS then get themselves bombed to hell... err deeper hell. Sure there are good ones in that big mess but as I said most are simple cookies with legs and arms.

As for being offensive, I do apologize if I am, but truth is truth and it usually hurts. I have argued so many times that many dom skills that people find "Leet" are complete garbage, do people listen? No, most simply like to see their big numbers on the screen. Yay a backfire... now for thirty seconds I have a useless skill that may (though very unlikely) kill something in ten seconds... and thats hoping there are no monks present. Sure you have some nice skills like the shatters or the guilt/shame brothers or even the power spike/leak/block but alot of the rest of the line is garbage... especially that which people make into cookies.

Illusion on the other hand (as well as inspiration) is based truly around what a mesmer should be; controler of the battlefield. Illusion cripples melee and can be used on casters quite effectively, illusion serves as the evil brother of domination and I find it far more effective at interupting (excluding Cry) the skills of enemies and even giving you energy. Inspiration also does keep you alive, all those mantras are golden skills and you have one for almost every situation... domination unlike its two sibling branches is only casters (exclude empathy) and is extremly limited.

Damon Windwalker · Nov 30, 2005, 02:18 AM // 02:18

Little story...

When I was taking my necro throught he ascention quests, I was trying to put together a party out of Augury Rock who actually wanted to fight through, rather than get run. After an hour I had a party of 4: 2 necros, 2 rangers.

We continued to spam for more people to join us. At one point, a warrior joined, who immediately looked at the 4 of us, then asked "Why do we have even one necro, let alone 2? Necros are useless." I had to laugh and point out that either of us could put out more DPS than he could, and if he wasn't smart enough to learn how to play with some of the "lesser" character types, he would have to learn soon enough. He laughed and left.

We ended up getting the monk henchies, and the 6 of us went through the desert with no problems....

alexcave · Nov 30, 2005, 01:17 PM // 13:17

Ask any monk in pvp how irritating an interrupt mesmer is...I can degen a monk and interrupt all his healing. I can also solo a warrior as a domination/illusion mesmer.

As a necro I can do more total damage than an elementalist by using curses such as spiteful spirit...as most pve warriors will continue attacking despite the hexes on them.

The biggest problem is that finding a good necro or mesmer is even harder than finding a good warrior or monk. Anet's aim is to balance the skills so that all professions can be equally devestating IF used properly...and it is in the IF that the problems arise.

xenoranger · Dec 09, 2005, 03:55 PM // 15:55

Just noticing that in Drok and southern Shiver Peaks, the REAL players seem to be more necro & mesmer heavy. I was recently in a party with 3 necos (including myself). Coordination was great, and we only had a couple deaths.

Seems like it's the noob areas that suffer from a lack of understanding when it comes to necros and mesmers.

Markaedw · Dec 10, 2005, 01:20 AM // 01:20

I just started on a necro, I have begun to appreciate the necor powers. I completed more than a few quests because the bones went ahead and kept them occupied while I got things done.

I have been thinking about including a mes in my second account line up. what would be agood secondary?

Xenrath · Dec 10, 2005, 01:28 AM // 01:28

I've a mesmer, and compared to my warrior or monk, definately the hardest to get into groups with (in PvE). Most missions ended up being done either with henchies or with aid of some guildmates. I tried to get into a group at SF with my mesmer boots on, joked a bit in public chat and said about how I could make mincemeat of the monk bosses etc. Still not one invite.

In fact the only way I found to get invited into groups for missions earlier was to basically play as a mesmentalist (fast casting nuker) which got me a lot more invitations... not really encouraging to see, though I've long since changed to play a proper domination mesmer instead.

Fyre Brand · Dec 10, 2005, 01:28 AM // 01:28

Xeno - if you hang out in any of the real farming areas you will see people asking for necros constantly.

Xenrath · Dec 10, 2005, 01:30 AM // 01:30

Yeah, SF for example necro's are in demand. Poor old mesmers though...

xenoranger · Dec 10, 2005, 01:33 AM // 01:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Markaedw

I just started on a necro, I have begun to appreciate the necor powers. I completed more than a few quests because the bones went ahead and kept them occupied while I got things done.

I have been thinking about including a mes in my second account line up. what would be agood secondary?

I enjoy the Mes as a secondary... mainly b/c you can use domination magic and stances to keep going. Inspiration keeps you healthy, and Illusion is good for avoiding damage. Someone will probably point out faults in my reasoning.. but I can only tell you from my experiences.

Rangers are good b/c they can use natural rites to give you an advantage.

And Monks allow you to heal yourself b/c some of the best necro abilities require life sacrifice.

Elementalist is good if you want to rely on soul reaping to gain power for additional casting (but not as recommended from what I've seen)

A N/W isn't that good (from what I've seen) b/c Necros are more frail, and really don't benefit much from the warrior skills you'd gain.

Again.. this is from what I've seen, so someone else may have more to offer in advice.

HelamisTheDark · Dec 10, 2005, 02:19 AM // 02:19

i was going to do Ice Caves of Sorrow mission, and i was and currently am lvl 20 and no one (these people were even lvl 15) wouldnt accept me, im a necro...gah
it's totally unfair

HelamisTheDark · Dec 10, 2005, 02:19 AM // 02:19

i think the people dont like us because they are jealous we got through the game with a necro or mesmer which are the hardest tobeat dopple with. necros, im my opinion, are the best.

Nov 29, 2005, 11:50 PM // 23:50	#45
Hiryu Frost Gate Guardian Join Date: Sep 2005 Guild: Moa Birds Profession: W/R	The issue with Mesmers, Necros, and Rangers in PvE is probably two-fold. 1) They're a lot harder to understand for most newcomers to the game than the Warrior, Elementalist, and the Monk. Their abilties transcend the mundane staple "tank", "nuke", and "heal" combo that ploughs through so many other uninspired RPGs. 2) Because they're a lot harder to understand, they're also a lot harder to play to their full potential. So a lot of newcomers who try these classes often become more of a liability than a contribution to their team. So: the newcomers recruit Monks, Warriors, and Elementalists because they don't really understand what Rangers, Mesmers and Necromancers do. And a bunch of the more experienced players don't recruit Rangers, Mesmers, and Necromancers because they're afraid that their Rangers, Mesmers, and Necromancers will be unskilled and will not make any significant contribution to the team (or even endanger the team at worst). Personally, I think using Necros as batteries is a huge waste. They can do so much more. Energy management shouldn't be a problem in PvE in the first place. Anyone who has ever played some high level PvP against Rangers/Necros/Mesmers, would be able to testify how important and powerful they really are. Last edited by Hiryu; Nov 29, 2005 at 11:56 PM // 23:56..

Nov 30, 2005, 01:17 PM // 13:17	#52
alexcave Ascalonian Squire Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Dubai Guild: Shameful Spirits Profession: Mo/W	Mesmer vs Warrior Ask any monk in pvp how irritating an interrupt mesmer is...I can degen a monk and interrupt all his healing. I can also solo a warrior as a domination/illusion mesmer. As a necro I can do more total damage than an elementalist by using curses such as spiteful spirit...as most pve warriors will continue attacking despite the hexes on them. The biggest problem is that finding a good necro or mesmer is even harder than finding a good warrior or monk. Anet's aim is to balance the skills so that all professions can be equally devestating IF used properly...and it is in the IF that the problems arise. Last edited by alexcave; Nov 30, 2005 at 01:20 PM // 13:20..

Nov 30, 2005, 01:05 AM // 01:05	#48
lg5000 Jungle Guide Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Australia	Hehe, sounds like I'm gonna end up enjoying playing this ranger after all.. he's only just got to LA, so.. thanks heaps for the info

Nov 30, 2005, 01:22 AM // 01:22	#49
Zobi Frost Gate Guardian Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Europe Guild: FR	I love both my Ranger and Mesmer equally. However, I completely disgaree with what Theos says about Mesmer players, and, in truth, found him extremely offensive. People SEEK OUT my Domination Memser for groups, (those who know how effective they can be), such as in FoW, as they know what strong characters they can be. I can only assume that Theos has had some bad experiences and tars everyone with the same brush. I'll admit that there are many bad Eles, for example, out there, but that doesn't mean that I would rubbish an entire line and never play with one again. It all depends on the person playing the toon.

Nov 30, 2005, 02:18 AM // 02:18	#51
Damon Windwalker Krytan Explorer Join Date: Jun 2005 Guild: The Wandering Gits	Little story... When I was taking my necro throught he ascention quests, I was trying to put together a party out of Augury Rock who actually wanted to fight through, rather than get run. After an hour I had a party of 4: 2 necros, 2 rangers. We continued to spam for more people to join us. At one point, a warrior joined, who immediately looked at the 4 of us, then asked "Why do we have even one necro, let alone 2? Necros are useless." I had to laugh and point out that either of us could put out more DPS than he could, and if he wasn't smart enough to learn how to play with some of the "lesser" character types, he would have to learn soon enough. He laughed and left. We ended up getting the monk henchies, and the 6 of us went through the desert with no problems....

Dec 09, 2005, 03:55 PM // 15:55	#53
xenoranger Wilds Pathfinder Join Date: Nov 2005	Just noticing that in Drok and southern Shiver Peaks, the REAL players seem to be more necro & mesmer heavy. I was recently in a party with 3 necos (including myself). Coordination was great, and we only had a couple deaths. Seems like it's the noob areas that suffer from a lack of understanding when it comes to necros and mesmers.

Dec 10, 2005, 01:20 AM // 01:20	#54
Markaedw Desert Nomad Join Date: Nov 2005 Profession: N/	I just started on a necro, I have begun to appreciate the necor powers. I completed more than a few quests because the bones went ahead and kept them occupied while I got things done. I have been thinking about including a mes in my second account line up. what would be agood secondary?

Dec 10, 2005, 01:28 AM // 01:28	#55
Xenrath Desert Nomad Join Date: Oct 2005 Profession: W/Me	I've a mesmer, and compared to my warrior or monk, definately the hardest to get into groups with (in PvE). Most missions ended up being done either with henchies or with aid of some guildmates. I tried to get into a group at SF with my mesmer boots on, joked a bit in public chat and said about how I could make mincemeat of the monk bosses etc. Still not one invite. In fact the only way I found to get invited into groups for missions earlier was to basically play as a mesmentalist (fast casting nuker) which got me a lot more invitations... not really encouraging to see, though I've long since changed to play a proper domination mesmer instead.

Dec 10, 2005, 01:28 AM // 01:28	#56
Fyre Brand Krytan Explorer Join Date: Sep 2005 Guild: Shadowlight Order [SoR]	Xeno - if you hang out in any of the real farming areas you will see people asking for necros constantly.

Dec 10, 2005, 01:30 AM // 01:30	#57
Xenrath Desert Nomad Join Date: Oct 2005 Profession: W/Me	Yeah, SF for example necro's are in demand. Poor old mesmers though...

Dec 10, 2005, 02:19 AM // 02:19	#59
HelamisTheDark Ascalonian Squire Join Date: Dec 2005 Guild: Thy Unholy Archangels Profession: N/E	i was going to do Ice Caves of Sorrow mission, and i was and currently am lvl 20 and no one (these people were even lvl 15) wouldnt accept me, im a necro...gah it's totally unfair