Judge's Insight and Kindle Arrows - Guild Wars Forums

Thylacine · Dec 13, 2005, 12:34 AM // 00:34

Do preparations and skills like Judge's insight, that increase armor penetration, stack? Will the +20 from Kindle arrows be increased by judges insight?

Shimus DarkRaven · Dec 13, 2005, 12:46 AM // 00:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thylacine

Do preparations and skills like Judge's insight, that increase armor penetration, stack? Will the +20 from Kindle arrows be increased by judges insight?

Yes, they will stack for one reason. Kindle is a prep. Judge's insight is a smiting SPELL.

Enjoy.

--The Shim

unienaule · Dec 13, 2005, 12:53 AM // 00:53

However, ranger preps and spirits are notorious for being totally unpredictable. The question here is, does the +20 fire damage recieve the benefit of the +20% armor penetration? My guess would be no, but then, I've never seen any testing about this.

Fyre Brand · Dec 13, 2005, 02:08 AM // 02:08

Kindle is a preparation and Judges is an enchantment and not just a spell. This is important because your prep can't be stripped but with the enchantment other ranger types can deal you extra damage and necro's and mesmers can strip it.

I haven't tested this so I could be way off, so keep that in mind.
The damage from kindle is +/additional damage which I believe is calculated at the very end of the damage calculation. The extra damage from Judge's is calculated at an earlier point in the calculation. I didn't go back and re-read the combat guide on the main page but it's a really good article to read to get a more accurate description of what happen's with armour penetration and the general theory about how damage is calculated.

Here is the link to the guide (which is kind of hard to notice since the title is "Game Mechanics" and it doesn't stand out for the damage guide it really is.): GWGuru Guide: Game Mechanics ~ A Treatise on Combat Mathematics

I don't think any of us know for sure the exact formulas used in the game, but this is a really good explanation and makes a lot of sense if you think about what he has to say. Only testing your specific case will tell you for sure.

Batou of Nine · Dec 13, 2005, 02:11 AM // 02:11

the +20% AP, probably will only apply to the arrow dmg itself, and an additional +20 fire dmg is then applied. So in other words, both skills are working independently on the bows base dmg.

In essence they stack, because you can use em all at once, but dmg wise, they dont affect eachother. Judes Insight is an Enchantment, not a spell. But yes, the work together since one is a prep other is an enchant.

I thinks you can stack as many different enchants as you want and only can use one (1) prep, one (1) shout or one (1) stance at any time...

that sound right? Hope that helpd..

linkid · Dec 13, 2005, 04:34 AM // 04:34

You can have more than one shout active, but only one prep and one stance can be active.
As to kindle arrows and Judge's Insight, no idea...

Former Ruling · Dec 13, 2005, 05:10 AM // 05:10

The Fire Dmg from Kindle Arrows does not gain power from the penetration from Judges.

Judge gives penetration to your attacks - Kindle's dmg is dmg from a Preperation, not an attack.

Asrial · Dec 13, 2005, 05:30 AM // 05:30

So you want to be using PENETRATING SHOT against some undead

MisterB · Dec 13, 2005, 09:09 AM // 09:09

Judge's Insight.
Enchantment Spell. For 8-18 seconds, target ally's attacks deal Holy damage and have +20% armor penetration.

Kindle Arrows
Preparation. For 24 seconds, your arrows deal fire damage, and hit for an additional 3-20 fire damage.

Interesting thread. This is pure theorycraft on my part, as I have not tested(not sure how, exactly)but I would guess Judge's gives you armor penetration to your base attacks/skills, then Kindle adds 3-20(or more, if you have higher Wilderness, naturally) fire damage, without armor penetration, as 3 others have said.
What I am confused about is whether your arrows deal fire or holy!

chippxero · Dec 13, 2005, 09:26 AM // 09:26

i'll test it in a while as i haven't used kindle arrow yet but doesn't it add the fire damage separate to the arrow damage? if so the arrow would deal holy and then the fire damage would just be fire.

As i say i haven't tried it so i could be completly wrong.

Sereng Amaranth · Dec 13, 2005, 09:42 AM // 09:42

oooh, my turn....

Judge's: +20%
Sundering: 10%/10%
Horn/Ivory/Shadow bow: 10/10%

So that's a 1% chance of 40% armor penetration, right?

Rajamic · Dec 13, 2005, 10:53 AM // 10:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sereng Amaranth

oooh, my turn....

Judge's: +20%
Sundering: 10%/10%
Horn/Ivory/Shadow bow: 10/10%

So that's a 1% chance of 40% armor penetration, right?

No, because the Ivory Bow penetration is always on. And technically, Sundering is +10%/10%. It stacks with other stuff.

As for the topic at hand, from what I've seen, anything that does additional or +X damage always is added after armor is calculated. So the bonus from Kindle would not get AP. If I were to guess on damage type, I'd say it would be based on whichever of Kindle and Judge's was applied last.

Makkert · Dec 13, 2005, 10:54 AM // 10:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Former Ruling

The Fire Dmg from Kindle Arrows does not gain power from the penetration from Judges.

Judge gives penetration to your attacks - Kindle's dmg is dmg from a Preperation, not an attack.

Former Ruling is right.
Tested some time ago.

~ makk.

Former Ruling · Dec 13, 2005, 12:00 PM // 12:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asrial

So you want to be using PENETRATING SHOT against some undead

Penetrating Shot would have the same effect as Judge's Insight minus the turning into holy dmg.

Judge's Insight is mostly for Barrage on a ranger.

dawnrain · Dec 13, 2005, 01:36 PM // 13:36

Just to make things more confusing ...

If anyone is going to test this, please also test if preparation Read The Wind (RtW) receives 20% Armor Penetration (AP) from Judge's Insight. I seem to recall a quickshot ranger build that indicated RtW did receive the AP.

My guess, Kindle Arrows doesn't get the AP but RtW does get the AP.

Dec 13, 2005, 12:34 AM // 00:34	#1
Thylacine Ascalonian Squire Join Date: Sep 2005	Judge's Insight and Kindle Arrows Do preparations and skills like Judge's insight, that increase armor penetration, stack? Will the +20 from Kindle arrows be increased by judges insight?

Dec 13, 2005, 12:53 AM // 00:53	#3
unienaule I dunt even get "Retired" Join Date: Aug 2005 Guild: Fifteen Over Fifty [Rare]	However, ranger preps and spirits are notorious for being totally unpredictable. The question here is, does the +20 fire damage recieve the benefit of the +20% armor penetration? My guess would be no, but then, I've never seen any testing about this.

Dec 13, 2005, 02:08 AM // 02:08	#4
Fyre Brand Krytan Explorer Join Date: Sep 2005 Guild: Shadowlight Order [SoR]	Kindle is a preparation and Judges is an enchantment and not just a spell. This is important because your prep can't be stripped but with the enchantment other ranger types can deal you extra damage and necro's and mesmers can strip it. I haven't tested this so I could be way off, so keep that in mind. The damage from kindle is +/additional damage which I believe is calculated at the very end of the damage calculation. The extra damage from Judge's is calculated at an earlier point in the calculation. I didn't go back and re-read the combat guide on the main page but it's a really good article to read to get a more accurate description of what happen's with armour penetration and the general theory about how damage is calculated. Here is the link to the guide (which is kind of hard to notice since the title is "Game Mechanics" and it doesn't stand out for the damage guide it really is.): GWGuru Guide: Game Mechanics ~ A Treatise on Combat Mathematics I don't think any of us know for sure the exact formulas used in the game, but this is a really good explanation and makes a lot of sense if you think about what he has to say. Only testing your specific case will tell you for sure.

Dec 13, 2005, 02:11 AM // 02:11	#5
Batou of Nine Desert Nomad Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: California, USA Guild: Angel Sharks [AS] (RiP [KaiZ] T__T") Profession: Mo/E	the +20% AP, probably will only apply to the arrow dmg itself, and an additional +20 fire dmg is then applied. So in other words, both skills are working independently on the bows base dmg. In essence they stack, because you can use em all at once, but dmg wise, they dont affect eachother. Judes Insight is an Enchantment, not a spell. But yes, the work together since one is a prep other is an enchant. I thinks you can stack as many different enchants as you want and only can use one (1) prep, one (1) shout or one (1) stance at any time... that sound right? Hope that helpd..

Dec 13, 2005, 04:34 AM // 04:34	#6
linkid Ascalonian Squire Join Date: Nov 2005 Guild: ETGD Profession: N/Mo	You can have more than one shout active, but only one prep and one stance can be active. As to kindle arrows and Judge's Insight, no idea...

Dec 13, 2005, 05:10 AM // 05:10	#7
Former Ruling Grotto Attendant Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Cedartown, Georgia Profession: R/	The Fire Dmg from Kindle Arrows does not gain power from the penetration from Judges. Judge gives penetration to your attacks - Kindle's dmg is dmg from a Preperation, not an attack.

Dec 13, 2005, 05:30 AM // 05:30	#8
Asrial Desert Nomad Join Date: Apr 2005 Guild: Centurion Guard Profession: Mo/E	So you want to be using PENETRATING SHOT against some undead

Dec 13, 2005, 09:09 AM // 09:09	#9
MisterB Furnace Stoker Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Planet Earth, Sol system, Milky Way galaxy Guild: [ban] Profession: W/	Judge's Insight. Enchantment Spell. For 8-18 seconds, target ally's attacks deal Holy damage and have +20% armor penetration. Kindle Arrows Preparation. For 24 seconds, your arrows deal fire damage, and hit for an additional 3-20 fire damage. Interesting thread. This is pure theorycraft on my part, as I have not tested(not sure how, exactly)but I would guess Judge's gives you armor penetration to your base attacks/skills, then Kindle adds 3-20(or more, if you have higher Wilderness, naturally) fire damage, without armor penetration, as 3 others have said. What I am confused about is whether your arrows deal fire or holy!

Dec 13, 2005, 09:26 AM // 09:26	#10
chippxero Krytan Explorer Join Date: May 2005 Location: norfolk Guild: Super Anti Rabbit Squad [SARS] Profession: Mo/Me	i'll test it in a while as i haven't used kindle arrow yet but doesn't it add the fire damage separate to the arrow damage? if so the arrow would deal holy and then the fire damage would just be fire. As i say i haven't tried it so i could be completly wrong.

Dec 13, 2005, 09:42 AM // 09:42	#11
Sereng Amaranth Desert Nomad Join Date: Jun 2005 Guild: The Amazon Basin [AB]	oooh, my turn.... Judge's: +20% Sundering: 10%/10% Horn/Ivory/Shadow bow: 10/10% So that's a 1% chance of 40% armor penetration, right?

Dec 13, 2005, 01:36 PM // 13:36	#15
dawnrain Frost Gate Guardian Join Date: Nov 2005	Just to make things more confusing ... If anyone is going to test this, please also test if preparation Read The Wind (RtW) receives 20% Armor Penetration (AP) from Judge's Insight. I seem to recall a quickshot ranger build that indicated RtW did receive the AP. My guess, Kindle Arrows doesn't get the AP but RtW does get the AP.