Levels, leveling, level caps, and level 20 - Page 23 - Guild Wars Forums

FelineFury · May 29, 2005, 06:04 PM // 18:04

Long post hurt my eyes

Loviatar · May 29, 2005, 06:22 PM // 18:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by grimmig

And although it has been said that any Add-ons won't create a visible difference between Add-on players and the remaining players, it would be interesting to know what else the add-on would offer if not something that would clearly define it from the version we're playing with now. Or why would anybody spend money on something other than getting something new that further changes the gameplay or adds new things to it (hence add-on).

i am willing to give you an honest off the top of my head answer (note this is spur of the moment without serious thought)

new skills that dont do much if any more but have next level special effects as in OMG did you see how xxx skill looks?

new professions with attending profession related skills but (OMG LOOK AT THE VISUALS WHEN XX CASTS XXX) balanced of course

possible new races (OMG HAVE YOU SEEN THE XXX I HAVE TO TRY IT) with its own new professions and skills

lots of new eye candy money sinks in armor weapons items special runes and expanded options in guild halls storage and better ai for henchies

new quests and missions

better story maybe

more and varied terrain and monsters

that is just scratching the surface but the one thing in common is it gives a lot of content without breaking the balance or raising the level

Dragothel · Jun 01, 2005, 12:07 AM // 00:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kiwi

All People New To Guild Wars: The Level 20 Cap Is Good!!! Yes, I Said Good!!!

Okay no offence but im lvl 17 and i want guild wars to be fun for more than a couple months. they deperatly NEED to raise the level cap

Loviatar · Jun 01, 2005, 12:20 AM // 00:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dragothel

Okay no offence but im lvl 17 and i want guild wars to be fun for more than a couple months. they deperatly NEED to raise the level cap

nuts

you get a level *DING* OMG i got a level stronger and i am better than the noob

GUESS WHAT?

the monsters all went up the same DING in the new level x + *ding*content you go into

they can make content that is challenging fresh and interesting without having the *MAGIC DING*

are you playing for the fun content or simply putting in time so you have higher levels than someone else and can feel superior to them?

HAVE to increase levels or it will be useless and stale?

Jaroh Magus · Jun 01, 2005, 12:25 AM // 00:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dragothel

Okay no offence but im lvl 17 and i want guild wars to be fun for more than a couple months. they deperatly NEED to raise the level cap

First off, what is there to be mad about? It's not fun now? You don't get enjoyment out of it? You bought a game with a level cap of 20, complete, to the end, just like others out there (like Baldur's Gate, for example, with a much lower level cap!), and you are not paying any extra fees monthly...why do you expect them to cater to your whims?

2nd, who's to say it won't be fun a couple of months down the road at level 20? What if they release a whole new section with 20 or so more missions and a bunch of new quests, all geared to level 20 characters...will that not be fun? People have made Super Mario Brothers games, and surprisingly enough, characters were capped at level 1 for the whole thing. On top of that, the enemies were pretty simple over all and very repetitive for the whole thing. You followed a straight path (for the most part) to the end, and they didn't add an expansion that let you double the level cap to have a Level 2 Mario, with a stronger jump or anything, and yet for some reason that game stuck around for quite a while, spawning many sequels.

Whose to say that this game won't do the same, but instead of sequels, they will create add ons that let you play with other jobs, both primary and secondary, with many new and different power combinations, more armor, weapons, and other such fun stuff. And instead of having to start over, you can continue on with your last "save game" right where you left off, with your existing character and do more missions! It won't be fun? Hmmm, me thinks you bought the wrong game then.

Think of this game more like Counterstrike or Mario Brothers, or better yet, think of it like Guild Wars, a totally unique style of Online game with a different playstyle than Everquest, City of Heroes, Ultima...etc. The closest online game to this one in style would be Monster Hunter for the PS2. The same idea, with token levels that don't mean anything other than access to harder missions, and new monsters to take down. It is another game that is totally dependant on skill, with "instanced" missions that you play multiplayer with up to 3 other buddies. A lot more limited in character selection, but a much better range of armor and weapons than this game (hint hint).

That's just my 2 cents, take it or leave it as you will, but you have no excuse, nor any right to be mad if they keep the level cap at level 20...

Algren Cole · Jun 01, 2005, 04:29 PM // 16:29

Forgive me if I am wrong...as Guild Wars is my first online RPG. I never saw a reason to play Everquest or any of the other multitude of online RPGs before. I am however quite happy that I bought Guild Wars a couple of days ago. I'm currently only a level 8 and JUST left what's been aptly coined 'Nub World'....However I ask this...without the ability to level limitlessly in what I've heard is a completely open end(never ending) game...what do you do after level 20...what is the point in continuing to play. You've achieved the highest level you can get...what is the purpose of doing the quests if you don't gain any experience from it? Why would anyone continue to run around the world completing quests for nothing?

Algren Cole · Jun 01, 2005, 07:43 PM // 19:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaroh Magus

2nd, who's to say it won't be fun a couple of months down the road at level 20? What if they release a whole new section with 20 or so more missions and a bunch of new quests, all geared to level 20 characters...will that not be fun? People have made Super Mario Brothers games, and surprisingly enough, characters were capped at level 1 for the whole thing. On top of that, the enemies were pretty simple over all and very repetitive for the whole thing. You followed a straight path (for the most part) to the end, and they didn't add an expansion that let you double the level cap to have a Level 2 Mario, with a stronger jump or anything, and yet for some reason that game stuck around for quite a while, spawning many sequels.

worst analogy i've ever heard....ever....in my entire life....seriously.

you compared a platform adventure game to an RPG....the purpose of Mario is to get to the end of the game...the purpose of an RPG is to level....if you take away the end of Mario is there a reason to play it anymore?

DranoK · Jun 01, 2005, 10:29 PM // 22:29

I guess the point a lot of us are trying to make is that an endless treadmill of levels/abilities/etc is just a crutch that rewards the accomplishment parts of your brain rather than actually making a fun game.

Why can't an RPG start you at max level (or let you reach it quickly), and then spend its entire time simply making the content harder? FPS, RTS, etc games have been doing this forever.

In a way, *YOU* are leveling up because you learn how to devise better strategies and tactics.

Having spells become "bigger" (in gfx sense) would be cool, though; maybe proportionate to how many times you've cast them? But not a game-breaker to me.

Leveling up is only a part of an RPG, and not an essencial part by any means. It's too bad that so many "RPGers" think that it is the most fundamental, important aspect.

Nerraw · Jun 02, 2005, 03:58 AM // 03:58

Yesterday I had my exp.points roll over and start back at the begining, I was already at level 20 before that happened and knew I wasn't going to hit 21 but I thought I read or heard that you get more Attribute points to use towards skills after rolling over beyond 20 to what should be like hitting 21, so my question is why didn't I get more attribute points?

Also as far as levels go, I'd like to see a RPG where you grow naturally in real life aquiring skills and doing what you like over and over becoming a master at some point in what ever that is which could be multiple skills, but not using any point system, just have it all hidden like it is naturally in real life.

If I were to guess where I would be at a level in real life now compared to the 20 cap in GW I'd say I hit 20 many years ago.

newbie101 · Jun 02, 2005, 03:41 PM // 15:41

Is it true that you continue to get more attribute points after reaching lvl 20?

Ashock · Jun 02, 2005, 04:11 PM // 16:11

Skill points, not attribute points. That is the whole problem. Attributes would largely alleviate the lack of character development issue. Skill points are utterly worthless.

Gortz · Jun 02, 2005, 04:13 PM // 16:13

Dont rush to get to level 20 is my advice once you do that put the timer on your still interested clock.

Unless you dont mind re-rolling from scratch then the game will have limited appeal after a while.

With new content coming will make it better but im never one of these rush to max lvl players

Nerraw · Jun 02, 2005, 05:00 PM // 17:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ashock

Skill points, not attribute points. That is the whole problem. Attributes would largely alleviate the lack of character development issue. Skill points are utterly worthless.

Ok thx that explains it, I'm still having fun playing level 20, my favorite thing to do is either go running solo through the toughest area's i can find to see how long I can last and new loot I might find.

The other is to join a new player in a quest to help them through at least one quest and get a feeling of being able to accomplish the quests even in tough area's.

They are hard to keep alive with so few hps escpecially when they run off quickly into more trouble but thats the challenge to keep up with them and get them through it alive.

Jaroh Magus · Jun 03, 2005, 06:53 PM // 18:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Algren Cole

worst analogy i've ever heard....ever....in my entire life....seriously.

you compared a platform adventure game to an RPG....the purpose of Mario is to get to the end of the game...the purpose of an RPG is to level....if you take away the end of Mario is there a reason to play it anymore?

Ah, but the purpose of an RPG is not just to level, it is to role-play a character. You do that in Guild Wars. How is Mario a bad analogy? In Mario, you "level up" by eating mushroom, effectively doubling your Hit Points (it takes two hits to kill you). You level up fairly quickly in the game as well.

Guild Wars is much like that. You level up quickly in the game, and then you play through most of it as your uber-powerful self, with others who are also uber-powered, against enemies who are uber-powered. RPGs don't need to be about leveling, to be good RPGs. I've played excellent D & D games where we don't level up for many games, and yet I still enjoyed playing my characters. Hell, most of my characters never made it past Lvl 5. The max cap in D & D is also only 15-30, depending on how you play. Not really the point to get more powerful, but instead to play a cool story with an intersting character...which is what you are doing in Guild Wars, with the added bonus of working with others and against others in Guild Battles.

Algren Cole · Jun 04, 2005, 05:54 AM // 05:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaroh Magus

Ah, but the purpose of an RPG is not just to level, it is to role-play a character. You do that in Guild Wars. How is Mario a bad analogy? In Mario, you "level up" by eating mushroom, effectively doubling your Hit Points (it takes two hits to kill you). You level up fairly quickly in the game as well.

Guild Wars is much like that. You level up quickly in the game, and then you play through most of it as your uber-powerful self, with others who are also uber-powered, against enemies who are uber-powered. RPGs don't need to be about leveling, to be good RPGs. I've played excellent D & D games where we don't level up for many games, and yet I still enjoyed playing my characters. Hell, most of my characters never made it past Lvl 5. The max cap in D & D is also only 15-30, depending on how you play. Not really the point to get more powerful, but instead to play a cool story with an intersting character...which is what you are doing in Guild Wars, with the added bonus of working with others and against others in Guild Battles.

It was a bad analogy...but the more I play GW the more I agree with the level 20 cap. I guess it's something that you WILL get used to by the time you hit level 20.

KJK · Jun 05, 2005, 12:05 AM // 00:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaroh Magus

...Not really the point to get more powerful, but instead to play a cool story with an intersting character...which is what you are doing in Guild Wars, with the added bonus of working with others and against others in Guild Battles.

I totally agree with this. RPG without a story isn't an RPG, because RPG stands for Role Playing Game it's about playing a role, you are part of that RPG's world, not a boring power-leveling char.

And if you really think leveling is the thing RPGs are about, search google for games called "StatBuilder" and "ProgressQuest". In these two games, you can concentrate in what you like most: leveling. All the boring stuff has been done for you. You only have to level. And the best thing there's no level cap!

Seriously if leveling is all you do play games mentioned above, or something similiar. If you want to use your skill and have fun choose Guild Wars. A.Net, never change the lvl cap.Period.

ImBobNewbie · Jun 07, 2005, 06:31 PM // 18:31

I think out of necessity, Anet may need to raise the lvl cap eventually. If the new expansion areas are filled with even stronger monsters, it would be near impossible for a group (even with good lvl 20 characters) to handle mobs, especially if they're lvl 25-35 or something. It doesn't matter how 'leet' you are if a mob of 5 monsters can destroy you in 3 seconds.

Algren Cole · Jun 07, 2005, 06:39 PM // 18:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by ImBobNewbie

I think out of necessity, Anet may need to raise the lvl cap eventually. If the new expansion areas are filled with even stronger monsters, it would be near impossible for a group (even with good lvl 20 characters) to handle mobs, especially if they're lvl 25-35 or something. It doesn't matter how 'leet' you are if a mob of 5 monsters can destroy you in 3 seconds.

agreed...if the expansion is going to work they'll need to push the lvl cap up.

Loviatar · Jun 07, 2005, 07:26 PM // 19:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Algren Cole

agreed...if the expansion is going to work they'll need to push the lvl cap up.

and the official word is they will not do that

you dont need the level *DING* with an inflated number to have challenging content

the next chapter will be for all of us not the grinding elite

from GW

We call that 'The Point of Ascension'. Almost all of the content in the game and in the future Chapters is only available to Ascended characters, which means we don't have to worry about providing different levels of content. All the good stuff will be available to everyone. It's not our intent to force people onto the levelling up treadmill, so the level cap in Guild Wars is almost meaningless.

Algren Cole · Jun 07, 2005, 07:31 PM // 19:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loviatar

and the official word is they will not do that

you dont need the level *DING* with an inflated number to have challenging content

the next chapter will be for all of us not the grinding elite

from GW

We call that 'The Point of Ascension'. Almost all of the content in the game and in the future Chapters is only available to Ascended characters, which means we don't have to worry about providing different levels of content. All the good stuff will be available to everyone. It's not our intent to force people onto the levelling up treadmill, so the level cap in Guild Wars is almost meaningless.

I hope they have some incentive to do the quests....outside of attribute points and skill points.

View Poll Results: Should the cap be raised sometime in the future?
No	117	61.90%
Yes	43	22.75%
Maybe after a couple of expansions	31	16.40%
Make the players that level up not allowed to be in arena battles	15	7.94%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 189. You may not vote on this poll

Jun 02, 2005, 03:58 AM // 03:58	#449
Nerraw Ascalonian Squire Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Canada, Toronto	Yesterday I had my exp.points roll over and start back at the begining, I was already at level 20 before that happened and knew I wasn't going to hit 21 but I thought I read or heard that you get more Attribute points to use towards skills after rolling over beyond 20 to what should be like hitting 21, so my question is why didn't I get more attribute points? Also as far as levels go, I'd like to see a RPG where you grow naturally in real life aquiring skills and doing what you like over and over becoming a master at some point in what ever that is which could be multiple skills, but not using any point system, just have it all hidden like it is naturally in real life. If I were to guess where I would be at a level in real life now compared to the 20 cap in GW I'd say I hit 20 many years ago. Last edited by Nerraw; Jun 02, 2005 at 04:56 PM // 16:56..

May 29, 2005, 06:04 PM // 18:04	#441
FelineFury Academy Page Join Date: May 2005	Long post hurt my eyes

Jun 01, 2005, 04:29 PM // 16:29	#446
Algren Cole Banned Join Date: Jun 2005	Forgive me if I am wrong...as Guild Wars is my first online RPG. I never saw a reason to play Everquest or any of the other multitude of online RPGs before. I am however quite happy that I bought Guild Wars a couple of days ago. I'm currently only a level 8 and JUST left what's been aptly coined 'Nub World'....However I ask this...without the ability to level limitlessly in what I've heard is a completely open end(never ending) game...what do you do after level 20...what is the point in continuing to play. You've achieved the highest level you can get...what is the purpose of doing the quests if you don't gain any experience from it? Why would anyone continue to run around the world completing quests for nothing?

Jun 01, 2005, 10:29 PM // 22:29	#448
DranoK Pre-Searing Cadet Join Date: May 2005	I guess the point a lot of us are trying to make is that an endless treadmill of levels/abilities/etc is just a crutch that rewards the accomplishment parts of your brain rather than actually making a fun game. Why can't an RPG start you at max level (or let you reach it quickly), and then spend its entire time simply making the content harder? FPS, RTS, etc games have been doing this forever. In a way, YOU are leveling up because you learn how to devise better strategies and tactics. Having spells become "bigger" (in gfx sense) would be cool, though; maybe proportionate to how many times you've cast them? But not a game-breaker to me. Leveling up is only a part of an RPG, and not an essencial part by any means. It's too bad that so many "RPGers" think that it is the most fundamental, important aspect.

Jun 02, 2005, 03:41 PM // 15:41	#450
newbie101 Pre-Searing Cadet Join Date: Jun 2005	Is it true that you continue to get more attribute points after reaching lvl 20?

Jun 02, 2005, 04:11 PM // 16:11	#451
Ashock Ascalonian Squire Join Date: May 2005	Skill points, not attribute points. That is the whole problem. Attributes would largely alleviate the lack of character development issue. Skill points are utterly worthless.

Jun 02, 2005, 04:13 PM // 16:13	#452
Gortz Academy Page Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: London Profession: W/E	Dont rush to get to level 20 is my advice once you do that put the timer on your still interested clock. Unless you dont mind re-rolling from scratch then the game will have limited appeal after a while. With new content coming will make it better but im never one of these rush to max lvl players

Jun 07, 2005, 06:31 PM // 18:31	#457
ImBobNewbie Academy Page Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: TX Guild: [NES] Nintendo Powered Profession: E/Mo	I think out of necessity, Anet may need to raise the lvl cap eventually. If the new expansion areas are filled with even stronger monsters, it would be near impossible for a group (even with good lvl 20 characters) to handle mobs, especially if they're lvl 25-35 or something. It doesn't matter how 'leet' you are if a mob of 5 monsters can destroy you in 3 seconds.