+3 runes vs +1 - Page 2 - Guild Wars Forums

Zamochit · Jan 16, 2008, 07:35 PM // 19:35

I use + 1 runes on all my heros too ~ except my MM on whom I use a +3 rune. I never find the loss in HP an issue on Olias ~ the wall of minions he provides acts as enough of a cushion, and [skill]dark bond[/skill] is basicly his own personal insurance policy anyway.

Sir Seifus Halbred · Jan 16, 2008, 07:36 PM // 19:36

For PvE you are fine with +1 minor runes. I only have a superior rune on my MM character, my monk (yeah not 100% neccasary for my monk but meh) and thats it.

I even find that in PvP minor runes are being used more and more now, especially in some PvX Wiki builds.

Tyla · Jan 16, 2008, 11:39 PM // 23:39

Minor.
Major if i need to hit a breakpoint.
Superior...never.

Alex Morningstar · Jan 17, 2008, 09:02 AM // 09:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagmaRed

Taking an MM into Maguuma with the Scarabs is not good unless you take some good skills to steal the minions back.

[skill]Verata's Gaze[/skill]

Pop this sucker on to any MM's hero's bar. It's awesome for when they die and get ressed, when the red dots have MMs, and when your minions get stolen.

As for the original topic, when it comes to runes, it comes down to the character. For my monk, I have a hat with +1 and another with +3. I use the +1 for HM/PvP and the +3 for when I do NM or when I heal/prot.

strcpy · Jan 17, 2008, 10:12 AM // 10:12

For PvE you will find whichever answer you want, it is easy to justify any of them (minor, major, or superior). You can't even break it down to all the good players do one thing while the rest do another - it really truly is all over the place.

For myself I find PvE to be much more strongly team based. First off if the team tactics/skill is even remotely decent most things go pretty easy (and if you are a decent player then the H/H are too). There are HM areas I find hard with just this, but they are few and far in between. Those area's require something else.

That something else tends to be good builds - and for the most part that is MUCH more dependent on skill selection. I would also count skill selection with which professions you choose to take - NM pretty much works with everything (assuming the first paragraph is met) and HM works pretty much if you pick a team skill set that works well together.

And, lastly, HM depends greatly on the leaders ability to pull, to know when to stand and fight, and know when the battle is lost and to run/regroup.

You will note that in all of that the choice of which runes I pick are pretty low on the totem pole - I mostly do not care. There are team builds/tactics that need one or the other. I, personally, do not feel I can tell you from what you have said.

For me the extra attributes are more important than the extra health, so far I have not found anyplace I have seen this to be not true. As I said, no matter the level of PvE achievement you are looking at you will find a mix so this question will almost always be a wash.

If you want mostly PvE on Autopilot look up Sab's three necro hero build and have at it (it actually has a mix of no to some superior runes). An excellent example of team skills and tactics being WAY more important than what rune you pick - I doubt you will see much difference if you didn't even bother with minors for the attributes that can use them in that team build.

MagmaRed · Jan 17, 2008, 12:31 PM // 12:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex Morningstar

[skill]Verata's Gaze[/skill]

Pop this sucker on to any MM's hero's bar. It's awesome for when they die and get ressed, when the red dots have MMs, and when your minions get stolen.

As for the original topic, when it comes to runes, it comes down to the character. For my monk, I have a hat with +1 and another with +3. I use the +1 for HM/PvP and the +3 for when I do NM or when I heal/prot.

Yes, Verata can work, but it doesn't work well. Why? You face 3 to 6 Scarabs, all using the same skill. It has a 5 second recharge. If each of them removes one minion from your hero, you now have to wait for the recharge on your hero's Gaze to get them back. Even if there are only 3, and only 2 remove a minion, the third will typically add that minion to itself. Either way, you have multiple uses of Gaze, and the Scarabs can use their Gaze multiple times. Unless you took multiple heroes with that skill, it is a losing battle, the Scarabs will always have more uses of Gaze. Aura can work for recovering all of them, but it has a 30 second recharge, so you have to kill off the Scarabs before using that one.

I learned to just deal with no MM in those areas, as I would rather have my heroes contributing to the fight, not battling over minion control.

But as you can see, this topic has some people saying minor runes are best, and some saying superior runes are best, and some that say a mix of both is best. I go back to my original statement, it is a matter of personal preference and playstyle.

Quaker · Jan 17, 2008, 03:46 PM // 15:46

Let me add another 2 cents to this (making 4 cents so far, or maybe no sense)

Much of the debate over +3 vs +2 vs +1 revolves around personal preference and playstyle (and ability) and also, where in the game you are.

In Normal Mode, all 3 campaigns and most of EotN is easy enough that using +3 runes is not a big problem. The loss in health is outweighed by the increase speed of killing the foes. Much of Hard Mode is the same way. As you get further into the game, and further into some of the harder areas, the toughness of some of the opponents means longer battles, in which case, how long you (and your heroes) can survive, particularly vs degen and conditions, becomes more of an issue.

Plus, with the addition of more skills that rely on various title tracks, the absolute value of some attribute lines is less important. Take my Ranger's current skill bar du-jour:

[skill]Distracting Shot[/skill][skill]Barrage[/skill][wiki]Never Rampage Alone[/wiki] - [wiki]Pain Inverter[/wiki][skill]Throw Dirt[/skill][skill]Comfort Animal[/skill][skill]Charm Animal[/skill][skill]Rebirth[/skill]

Neither of the Beast Mastery skills are really dependent upon the level of Beast Mastery.
The 2 Expertise skills have very little reliance on the level of Expertise - and Throw Dirt is the skill most often replaced by something else, depending upon the situation. (It happens to be there atm)
Barrage, the only Marksmanship skill, goes from +19 damage (at 14 in marks) to +21 with 16 in marksmanship.
The other two skills rely on my Sunspear and Asuran title tracks.

So, in this case, I wouldn't take the -75 health hit to only increase my Barrage by +2. Increasing Beast Mastery, likewise has little effect. Increasing Expertise has the greatest effect, but again, not enough to justify the health loss for me (but that is where I might consider it)

Btw: there's no point on commenting on this skill bar. It is used in conjunction with other people/heroes and is subject to change without notice (or reason).

Stupid Shizno · Jan 18, 2008, 04:01 AM // 04:01

i personally run +1 on every hero, and 615 health on all heros. Heros by them selvs fail at kiting, and will take more damage. The only exception I make for heros is my koss runs 585 health, this way if i do bring koss, i know AI monsters will target him more chances then other heros, do to the AI coding to target the person with lowest health (this explains why a dp'ed player is always being hit first)

i find having to wait an extra 2 seconds to kill a group is better then having heros die. as i am running a prot build with 3 heros and hench, its pretty hard for a hero to die with 600+ health and a proper prot monk telling them what to do.

Jan 16, 2008, 07:35 PM // 19:35	#21
Zamochit Furnace Stoker Join Date: Jul 2006 Profession: N/A	I use + 1 runes on all my heros too ~ except my MM on whom I use a +3 rune. I never find the loss in HP an issue on Olias ~ the wall of minions he provides acts as enough of a cushion, and [skill]dark bond[/skill] is basicly his own personal insurance policy anyway.

Jan 16, 2008, 07:36 PM // 19:36	#22
Sir Seifus Halbred Wilds Pathfinder Join Date: Oct 2006	For PvE you are fine with +1 minor runes. I only have a superior rune on my MM character, my monk (yeah not 100% neccasary for my monk but meh) and thats it. I even find that in PvP minor runes are being used more and more now, especially in some PvX Wiki builds.

Jan 16, 2008, 11:39 PM // 23:39	#23
Tyla Emo Goth Italics Join Date: Sep 2006	Minor. Major if i need to hit a breakpoint. Superior...never.

Jan 17, 2008, 10:12 AM // 10:12	#25
strcpy Desert Nomad Join Date: Jul 2005 Guild: One of Many [ONE]	For PvE you will find whichever answer you want, it is easy to justify any of them (minor, major, or superior). You can't even break it down to all the good players do one thing while the rest do another - it really truly is all over the place. For myself I find PvE to be much more strongly team based. First off if the team tactics/skill is even remotely decent most things go pretty easy (and if you are a decent player then the H/H are too). There are HM areas I find hard with just this, but they are few and far in between. Those area's require something else. That something else tends to be good builds - and for the most part that is MUCH more dependent on skill selection. I would also count skill selection with which professions you choose to take - NM pretty much works with everything (assuming the first paragraph is met) and HM works pretty much if you pick a team skill set that works well together. And, lastly, HM depends greatly on the leaders ability to pull, to know when to stand and fight, and know when the battle is lost and to run/regroup. You will note that in all of that the choice of which runes I pick are pretty low on the totem pole - I mostly do not care. There are team builds/tactics that need one or the other. I, personally, do not feel I can tell you from what you have said. For me the extra attributes are more important than the extra health, so far I have not found anyplace I have seen this to be not true. As I said, no matter the level of PvE achievement you are looking at you will find a mix so this question will almost always be a wash. If you want mostly PvE on Autopilot look up Sab's three necro hero build and have at it (it actually has a mix of no to some superior runes). An excellent example of team skills and tactics being WAY more important than what rune you pick - I doubt you will see much difference if you didn't even bother with minors for the attributes that can use them in that team build.

Jan 17, 2008, 03:46 PM // 15:46	#27
Quaker Hell's Protector Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Canada Guild: Brothers Disgruntled	Let me add another 2 cents to this (making 4 cents so far, or maybe no sense) Much of the debate over +3 vs +2 vs +1 revolves around personal preference and playstyle (and ability) and also, where in the game you are. In Normal Mode, all 3 campaigns and most of EotN is easy enough that using +3 runes is not a big problem. The loss in health is outweighed by the increase speed of killing the foes. Much of Hard Mode is the same way. As you get further into the game, and further into some of the harder areas, the toughness of some of the opponents means longer battles, in which case, how long you (and your heroes) can survive, particularly vs degen and conditions, becomes more of an issue. Plus, with the addition of more skills that rely on various title tracks, the absolute value of some attribute lines is less important. Take my Ranger's current skill bar du-jour: [skill]Distracting Shot[/skill][skill]Barrage[/skill][wiki]Never Rampage Alone[/wiki] - [wiki]Pain Inverter[/wiki][skill]Throw Dirt[/skill][skill]Comfort Animal[/skill][skill]Charm Animal[/skill][skill]Rebirth[/skill] Neither of the Beast Mastery skills are really dependent upon the level of Beast Mastery. The 2 Expertise skills have very little reliance on the level of Expertise - and Throw Dirt is the skill most often replaced by something else, depending upon the situation. (It happens to be there atm) Barrage, the only Marksmanship skill, goes from +19 damage (at 14 in marks) to +21 with 16 in marksmanship. The other two skills rely on my Sunspear and Asuran title tracks. So, in this case, I wouldn't take the -75 health hit to only increase my Barrage by +2. Increasing Beast Mastery, likewise has little effect. Increasing Expertise has the greatest effect, but again, not enough to justify the health loss for me (but that is where I might consider it) Btw: there's no point on commenting on this skill bar. It is used in conjunction with other people/heroes and is subject to change without notice (or reason).

Jan 18, 2008, 04:01 AM // 04:01	#28
Stupid Shizno Banned Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Madison, Wisconsin, USA Guild: [eF] Profession: Mo/	i personally run +1 on every hero, and 615 health on all heros. Heros by them selvs fail at kiting, and will take more damage. The only exception I make for heros is my koss runs 585 health, this way if i do bring koss, i know AI monsters will target him more chances then other heros, do to the AI coding to target the person with lowest health (this explains why a dp'ed player is always being hit first) i find having to wait an extra 2 seconds to kill a group is better then having heros die. as i am running a prot build with 3 heros and hench, its pretty hard for a hero to die with 600+ health and a proper prot monk telling them what to do.