Mob AI vs. Heroe/henchie AI - Guild Wars Forums

sixofone · Mar 27, 2008, 02:57 PM // 14:57

Just wondering - does it seem that enemy mobs tend to be "smarter" than Hero or henchmen AI? (And I'm talking in NM as I'm still too much a n00b to do HM. I understand that in HM ANet reworked the mob AI to scatter from AoE and so on. But, what about my units? Do H&H react smarter in HM, too?)

It kills me, sometimes, to watch my H&H behave so stupidly while getting wailed on by mobs. Koss: "OK - I've attacked the guy you targeted. Now I'm going to run half-way across the radar to attack an enemy unit even though there's one exactly like it standing right next to me. I mean, why fight one mob when we can aggro two?"

Jin: "Hey - I'm a Ranger! I scout, fCs, and I spotted an enemy unit all the way over there that I want to go shoot at just because I can. Watch me!"

In the meantime, melee mobs are tearing up the back line...

I guess it must be hard to design AI for a game like this, what with all the variables in terms of primary/secondary combinations and unexpected results of skill synergies (or lack thereof). But why are my H&H so much stupider than the enemy? Is it just because GW was intended to be a multi-player game, and so H&H were meant as a backup?

Dark Kal · Mar 27, 2008, 03:42 PM // 15:42

The H/H AI is generaly worse than the enemy mobs IMO. The general AI of enemy mobs isn't much better per se but they get to cheat (i.e. have more life, doing more damage, etc.). H/H are well know for their love for dieing, luring unnecessary groups and clumping together so AoE damage will wipe them in a matter of seconds. Eventually you'll adapt to the horrible AI though.

Sir Pandra Pierva · Mar 27, 2008, 03:46 PM // 15:46

if you have that much fun with Ai hench/hero being retarted watch denvoa go leeroy across the whole of the world to get to a monk 5 groups over and then pull the oh shit i am overextended lets run back to the monks dragging everyone with me

CandyPrince · Mar 27, 2008, 03:56 PM // 15:56

Yeh, they definately made H/H AI worse! Infact, I'm sure they made heros even worse to compensate for the fact that they will probably have more suitable builds and weapons/insignias etc.

Thing is, I used to hate it. Now I just watch in awe when master of whispers goes running across half the map past 3 mobs to get at some unknown enemy then promply changes his mind once I'm dead.

AI is kinda funny, and you do get used to it after a while and get quick with the flags! They would never dream of running out of Maelstrom without it!

I don't know if you have noticed, or is it just me? but some of my heros are worse than others. Bizarre. You couldn't have invented it - oh they did

quickmonty · Mar 27, 2008, 04:31 PM // 16:31

Have to agree. Spent last night watching Master of Whispers run ahead of me to start attacking mob just outside of aggro while I was setting up my spirits.

Minions are fun too. Try sneaking past a mob with minions.

Twonaiver · Mar 27, 2008, 04:47 PM // 16:47

what bothers me most is not even the fact they escape from a war to another mob full right beside mine, is that aoe kills them and dont kill the mob AI, why do my heroes dont escape from Meteor shower and maelstrom, both kill them if i dont atract it on myself it really suck

Olim Chill · Mar 27, 2008, 04:56 PM // 16:56

Quote:

Minions are fun too. Try sneaking past a mob with minions.

QFT - they make Rurik seem careful.

Yeah, H/H will run off at times, but I'm usually able to flag them back in before disaster.

Painbringer · Mar 27, 2008, 05:58 PM // 17:58

Minions I understand they should attack anything and everything

What I do not understand is when you wait for an environmental condition to stop before running thru (example the flame throwers) the henchmen will camp in the area of effect.

AW Lore · Mar 27, 2008, 06:06 PM // 18:06

and even with all those screw ups H/H do (because it happens to me too) they are still far more reliable than pugs.

miskav · Mar 27, 2008, 06:20 PM // 18:20

H/H lack a real brain to contemplate all the variables...
Sadly... they do better then most PuG's...

tormtk · Mar 27, 2008, 07:15 PM // 19:15

Yes i agree that alot of the time the hero and henchie AI works in a strange way. I had many of the same problems as the above posts, but more so when I was new to the game. I believe you are right about GW being a multiplayer game so there is definte benifits from using real player vs H/H. However, consider the fact, how can you design an AI that reacts exactly how you want it too and to all diferent playing styles.

For example when you run into something hard that you cannot beat, do you say " Oh thats just to hard" or do you start to pick it apart a create a way to win. That is exactly how you manage your H/H. Use the flag button, experiment with skill sets,( a skill set can be great for a player but the hero AI runs it all wrong), watch how the act towards different situations, and use the guard, passive comands for them.

It won't happen over night, but soon you will see quite a bit of difference in your gaming. Also never just add H/H to fill up spots, look on wiki and see the Henchie skill sets and pick the ones that fit what your going to be doing. After I practiced this the only difference I see from H/H from real player is that it usually goes alittle slower.

Note there are some areas that are way easier with real player but most of those are the elite areas and some HM stuff. I have currently vanquished half of tyria and almost all of GWEN with just H/H.

Randvek · Mar 27, 2008, 07:24 PM // 19:24

I think the problem with the H/H AI is that it tries to figure out what to do based on clues from what the player is doing... and often interprets the player actions very poorly. You start kiting? Oops, H/H thinks it's a retreat. And heaven help you if you're a ranger using apply poison and you are spreading it around!

Quaker · Mar 27, 2008, 07:33 PM // 19:33

I guess it's just a matter of getting used to the H&H AI and being prepared for it. I don't have a whole lot of problem doing H&H - I just vanquished Kessex Peak with H&H earlier today.
One thing I can think of - always target something.
Edit - one more thing - An MM's minions will attack - don't even try to sneak past a mob if you have a Hero MM.
Edit - another thing - learn to use flags. (tormtk (above) brought that to mind.)

Basically - you are in control and you must micro-manage to some extent.

I always find it funny when people bitch at the H&H for doing something, as if they are real people who should know better (or will learn from being yelled at). (Not saying that anyone here does that)

Tyla · Mar 27, 2008, 07:37 PM // 19:37

Mob AI.
My H/H have been acting up and I can't complete anything in HM lately.
Heals are coming in WAY too late, anti-melee isn't being casted, skills are being delayed in microing for like 5 seconds...

Then when I just don't do anything and stand idol, they kill stuff and they don't die. (Can't be wrong targetting as they're ALL melee and there's tons of 'em.)

I just hope this doesn't keep happening to me....

Painbringer · Mar 27, 2008, 09:03 PM // 21:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randvek

I think the problem with the H/H AI is that it tries to figure out what to do based on clues from what the player is doing... and often interprets the player actions very poorly. You start kiting? Oops, H/H thinks it's a retreat. And heaven help you if you're a ranger using apply poison and you are spreading it around!

Try being a mesmer

I want warriors to body block for me but if I try to hit the casters my team goes right for my target leaving me open for a whooping by the oppositions melee. I need to switch targets and fast to be effective and my henchies / heroes try to switch as well

Tarun · Mar 27, 2008, 09:15 PM // 21:15

H/H AI varies per chapter/campaign.

Nightfall = best H/H AI
Factions = slightly better than Prophecies.
EotN = pretty good, about equal to Prophecies.

What I hate most about mob AI is their interrupts. Using a skill that has no listed "cast time" yet they can still interrupt it. Talk about a bunch of BS. Needs to be a coded delay. And that's for both NM and HM.

quickmonty · Mar 27, 2008, 09:21 PM // 21:21

One thing I've noticed about mobs .... they know what's on your skill bar. No .... really .... I've done this several times.

With H/H in several areas, the mob melee come right after me. If I put a skill on to counter (Ancestor's Rage, for example) then they don't come anywhere near me. I don't have to use it, just have it on my skill bar to keep them away.

MisterB · Mar 27, 2008, 09:28 PM // 21:28

ANet can write better AI, but they reserve it for mobs. Heroes and Henchmen are weaker by design. There's some interviews with the devs you can find where they actually say the H/H AI is programmed weaker intentionally.

Unfortunately, when Hard mode was introduced, the H/H AI got a lobotomy, but they have since corrected that. Zhed would happily stand in a drugged stupor with full energy with Ward vs. Melee unused and available, watching Charr Axe murderers bury their blades in his chest. Dunkaroo would just run around in circles with a stupid grin, laughing, instead of using his full energy and available skills to heal anyone, including himself. I want some of what they were on if I ever get serious injury.

Well99 · Mar 27, 2008, 09:30 PM // 21:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by AW Lore

and even with all those screw ups H/H do (because it happens to me too) they are still far more reliable than pugs.

That is for sure.Never had one hero rage quit or have 3 go different ways while shouting follow me.Your all noobs.I have had them take a coffee break while I battled.Both heroes and hench.I was waiting for shovels to replace their weapons.
Just a note on Jin if you put her on middle one she doesnt charge out.Devona no help there.It is too bad that their AI isnt better but at least they will stay with you.

tormtk · Mar 27, 2008, 09:38 PM // 21:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Painbringer

Try being a mesmer

I want warriors to body block for me but if I try to hit the casters my team goes right for my target leaving me open for a whooping by the oppositions melee. I need to switch targets and fast to be effective and my henchies / heroes try to switch as well

Again it goes back to learning how the AI is programed. If you attack an enemy but switch to another target and just use skills H/H will not follow you. However if you attack another target they will follow your direction. I use this alot while playing my necro, mesmer is not any different.
Good luck

Mar 27, 2008, 02:57 PM // 14:57	#1
sixofone Krytan Explorer Join Date: May 2007 Profession: P/	Mob AI vs. Heroe/henchie AI Just wondering - does it seem that enemy mobs tend to be "smarter" than Hero or henchmen AI? (And I'm talking in NM as I'm still too much a n00b to do HM. I understand that in HM ANet reworked the mob AI to scatter from AoE and so on. But, what about my units? Do H&H react smarter in HM, too?) It kills me, sometimes, to watch my H&H behave so stupidly while getting wailed on by mobs. Koss: "OK - I've attacked the guy you targeted. Now I'm going to run half-way across the radar to attack an enemy unit even though there's one exactly like it standing right next to me. I mean, why fight one mob when we can aggro two?" Jin: "Hey - I'm a Ranger! I scout, fCs, and I spotted an enemy unit all the way over there that I want to go shoot at just because I can. Watch me!" In the meantime, melee mobs are tearing up the back line... I guess it must be hard to design AI for a game like this, what with all the variables in terms of primary/secondary combinations and unexpected results of skill synergies (or lack thereof). But why are my H&H so much stupider than the enemy? Is it just because GW was intended to be a multi-player game, and so H&H were meant as a backup?

Mar 27, 2008, 03:56 PM // 15:56	#4
CandyPrince Academy Page Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: England Guild: The Realm of Eternity (Tre) Profession: E/	Ai Yeh, they definately made H/H AI worse! Infact, I'm sure they made heros even worse to compensate for the fact that they will probably have more suitable builds and weapons/insignias etc. Thing is, I used to hate it. Now I just watch in awe when master of whispers goes running across half the map past 3 mobs to get at some unknown enemy then promply changes his mind once I'm dead. AI is kinda funny, and you do get used to it after a while and get quick with the flags! They would never dream of running out of Maelstrom without it! I don't know if you have noticed, or is it just me? but some of my heros are worse than others. Bizarre. You couldn't have invented it - oh they did

Mar 27, 2008, 07:33 PM // 19:33	#13
Quaker Hell's Protector Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Canada Guild: Brothers Disgruntled	I guess it's just a matter of getting used to the H&H AI and being prepared for it. I don't have a whole lot of problem doing H&H - I just vanquished Kessex Peak with H&H earlier today. One thing I can think of - always target something. Edit - one more thing - An MM's minions will attack - don't even try to sneak past a mob if you have a Hero MM. Edit - another thing - learn to use flags. (tormtk (above) brought that to mind.) Basically - you are in control and you must micro-manage to some extent. I always find it funny when people bitch at the H&H for doing something, as if they are real people who should know better (or will learn from being yelled at). (Not saying that anyone here does that) Last edited by Quaker; Mar 27, 2008 at 07:39 PM // 19:39..

Mar 27, 2008, 09:28 PM // 21:28	#18
MisterB Furnace Stoker Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Planet Earth, Sol system, Milky Way galaxy Guild: [ban] Profession: W/	ANet can write better AI, but they reserve it for mobs. Heroes and Henchmen are weaker by design. There's some interviews with the devs you can find where they actually say the H/H AI is programmed weaker intentionally. Unfortunately, when Hard mode was introduced, the H/H AI got a lobotomy, but they have since corrected that. Zhed would happily stand in a drugged stupor with full energy with Ward vs. Melee unused and available, watching Charr Axe murderers bury their blades in his chest. Dunkaroo would just run around in circles with a stupid grin, laughing, instead of using his full energy and available skills to heal anyone, including himself. I want some of what they were on if I ever get serious injury. Last edited by MisterB; Mar 27, 2008 at 09:36 PM // 21:36..

Mar 27, 2008, 03:42 PM // 15:42	#2
Dark Kal Krytan Explorer Join Date: Dec 2006	The H/H AI is generaly worse than the enemy mobs IMO. The general AI of enemy mobs isn't much better per se but they get to cheat (i.e. have more life, doing more damage, etc.). H/H are well know for their love for dieing, luring unnecessary groups and clumping together so AoE damage will wipe them in a matter of seconds. Eventually you'll adapt to the horrible AI though.

Mar 27, 2008, 03:46 PM // 15:46	#3
Sir Pandra Pierva Forge Runner Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Sardelec yelling at Tenshi Guild: Angels Of Strife Profession: E/	if you have that much fun with Ai hench/hero being retarted watch denvoa go leeroy across the whole of the world to get to a monk 5 groups over and then pull the oh shit i am overextended lets run back to the monks dragging everyone with me

Mar 27, 2008, 04:31 PM // 16:31	#5
quickmonty Ancient Windbreaker Join Date: May 2005	Have to agree. Spent last night watching Master of Whispers run ahead of me to start attacking mob just outside of aggro while I was setting up my spirits. Minions are fun too. Try sneaking past a mob with minions.

Mar 27, 2008, 04:47 PM // 16:47	#6
Twonaiver Frost Gate Guardian Join Date: May 2006 Location: S??o Paulo Brasil Profession: R/	what bothers me most is not even the fact they escape from a war to another mob full right beside mine, is that aoe kills them and dont kill the mob AI, why do my heroes dont escape from Meteor shower and maelstrom, both kill them if i dont atract it on myself it really suck

Mar 27, 2008, 05:58 PM // 17:58	#8
Painbringer Furnace Stoker Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Minnesota Guild: Black Widows of Death Profession: W/Mo	Minions I understand they should attack anything and everything What I do not understand is when you wait for an environmental condition to stop before running thru (example the flame throwers) the henchmen will camp in the area of effect.

Mar 27, 2008, 06:06 PM // 18:06	#9
AW Lore Jungle Guide Join Date: May 2006 Guild: Ancient Warriors Gaming Clan Profession: W/Mo	and even with all those screw ups H/H do (because it happens to me too) they are still far more reliable than pugs.

Mar 27, 2008, 06:20 PM // 18:20	#10
miskav Jungle Guide Join Date: Jun 2005 Guild: None Profession: Mo/	H/H lack a real brain to contemplate all the variables... Sadly... they do better then most PuG's...

Mar 27, 2008, 07:15 PM // 19:15	#11
tormtk Academy Page Join Date: Nov 2007 Guild: ocd Profession: W/	Yes i agree that alot of the time the hero and henchie AI works in a strange way. I had many of the same problems as the above posts, but more so when I was new to the game. I believe you are right about GW being a multiplayer game so there is definte benifits from using real player vs H/H. However, consider the fact, how can you design an AI that reacts exactly how you want it too and to all diferent playing styles. For example when you run into something hard that you cannot beat, do you say " Oh thats just to hard" or do you start to pick it apart a create a way to win. That is exactly how you manage your H/H. Use the flag button, experiment with skill sets,( a skill set can be great for a player but the hero AI runs it all wrong), watch how the act towards different situations, and use the guard, passive comands for them. It won't happen over night, but soon you will see quite a bit of difference in your gaming. Also never just add H/H to fill up spots, look on wiki and see the Henchie skill sets and pick the ones that fit what your going to be doing. After I practiced this the only difference I see from H/H from real player is that it usually goes alittle slower. Note there are some areas that are way easier with real player but most of those are the elite areas and some HM stuff. I have currently vanquished half of tyria and almost all of GWEN with just H/H.

Mar 27, 2008, 07:24 PM // 19:24	#12
Randvek Krytan Explorer Join Date: Sep 2006 Guild: Rise From the Ashes [phnx] Profession: W/	I think the problem with the H/H AI is that it tries to figure out what to do based on clues from what the player is doing... and often interprets the player actions very poorly. You start kiting? Oops, H/H thinks it's a retreat. And heaven help you if you're a ranger using apply poison and you are spreading it around!

Mar 27, 2008, 07:37 PM // 19:37	#14
Tyla Emo Goth Italics Join Date: Sep 2006	Mob AI. My H/H have been acting up and I can't complete anything in HM lately. Heals are coming in WAY too late, anti-melee isn't being casted, skills are being delayed in microing for like 5 seconds... Then when I just don't do anything and stand idol, they kill stuff and they don't die. (Can't be wrong targetting as they're ALL melee and there's tons of 'em.) I just hope this doesn't keep happening to me....

Mar 27, 2008, 09:15 PM // 21:15	#16
Tarun Technician's Corner Moderator Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: The TARDIS Guild: http://www.lunarsoft.net/ http://forums.lunarsoft.net/	H/H AI varies per chapter/campaign. Nightfall = best H/H AI Factions = slightly better than Prophecies. EotN = pretty good, about equal to Prophecies. What I hate most about mob AI is their interrupts. Using a skill that has no listed "cast time" yet they can still interrupt it. Talk about a bunch of BS. Needs to be a coded delay. And that's for both NM and HM.

Mar 27, 2008, 09:21 PM // 21:21	#17
quickmonty Ancient Windbreaker Join Date: May 2005	One thing I've noticed about mobs .... they know what's on your skill bar. No .... really .... I've done this several times. With H/H in several areas, the mob melee come right after me. If I put a skill on to counter (Ancestor's Rage, for example) then they don't come anywhere near me. I don't have to use it, just have it on my skill bar to keep them away.