Assassin Or Warrior? - Page 4 - Guild Wars Forums

Magikarp · Apr 21, 2008, 06:47 PM // 18:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

The more utility the better, and you can easily drop some of the skills in the DSlasher.
Some of them really are just for maximizing the spammability of D-Slash, Headbutt and SY.

i'll never disagree that the more utility isn't better :P, but you have to admit, the DB build still offers the same amount of utility spots (default) as the DS build.

draugr · Apr 21, 2008, 07:09 PM // 19:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Draugr, ever heard of "Zealous" weapons or "Adrenaline" skills?
Or just not using bad attack skills (The majority of energy skills for Warriors) on your bar?

Of course I have a warrior and a sin both, as have been playing since 10/05 off and on. Love playing the warrior, but my original contention stands... 4 energy regen >2 unless paragon, and if I HAD to make a choice for flexibility and backing H/H parties or general pve, the sin wins hands down. Pve is all about front loaded damage and sin is the king of that. PvE speed hinges on paring down the opponent by 1 or 2 mobs as fast as possible. Also as a primary, critical > strength, no real counterargument possible. And, re adrenaline, the sin builds it just as fast as the warr if not using rage of the ntouka. Where armor is concerned, I'd rather have a perma block percentage with [critical defenses] than the extra armor of the warrior.

For example, ever try something like this on a sin with a staff?

[critical agility] [way of the master] [critical eye] [weapon of remedy][vengeful weapon] [splinter weapon] [i am the strongest] [great dwarf weapon]

Spam splinter on yourself, GDW on the physical damage dealers in the party, and use the other wep spells to heal the squishies.

or sub in as wanted...

[critical defenses] [pain inverter] [you move like a dwarf] [ebon battle standard of honor] the sin can spam any spells, warr just can't.

the high crit percentage and IAS = infinite energy (+4 per crit) with a STAFF doing decent dps that can heal and damage simultaneously with the weapon spells and add lots of utility to H/H via GDW. The warrior base just can't do things like this...

Tyla · Apr 21, 2008, 07:29 PM // 19:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by draugr

Also as a primary, critical > strength, no real counterargument possible. And, re adrenaline, the sin builds it just as fast as the warr if not using rage of the ntouka.

["for great justice!"][enraging charge]
Strength is good for the skills in the attribute.
Enraging Charge is one of them skills.

draugr · Apr 21, 2008, 07:39 PM // 19:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

["for great justice!"][enraging charge]
Strength is good for the skills in the attribute.
Enraging Charge is one of them skills.

[For great justice] ... erm

Top this, hehe...

[Critical Agility] [critical defenses] [Way of the Master] [Critical Eye] [For Great Justice] [Dragon slash] [great dwarf weapon] [Save Yourselves]

[enraging charge] is a great skill, but the utility of spamming GDW every five seconds is > [brawling headbutt]

Tyla · Apr 21, 2008, 07:43 PM // 19:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by draugr

[For great justice] ... erm

That was directed at the adrenaline part.

Quote:

[Critical Agility] [critical defenses] [Way of the Master] [Critical Eye] [For Great Justice] [Dragon slash] [great dwarf weapon] [Save Yourselves]

[enraging charge] is a great skill, but the utility of spamming GDW every five seconds is > [brawling headbutt]

1.75 seconds out of combat?
Ah yeah, you're also missing out Flail, which is much better.
Providing you're on a Warrior.

A Warrior also has [enduring harmony] aswell for 2/3 upkeep of FGJ.

moriz · Apr 21, 2008, 07:45 PM // 19:45

[build prof=W/ axe=12+1+1 str=12+1][eviscerate]["for great justice!"][whirlwind attack][cyclone axe][enraging charge]["save yourselves!"][flail][sunspear rebirth signet][/build]

topped. massive aoe, especially with a n/rt hero spamming splinter weapon and ancestor's rage on you. cyclone axe convienently charges up whirlwind and save yourselves. use eviscerate to finish off anything that's left.

Magikarp · Apr 21, 2008, 07:46 PM // 19:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

["for great justice!"][enraging charge]
Strength is good for the skills in the attribute.
Enraging Charge is one of them skills.

tisk tisk. two selfish utility skills. gtfo! (jk dude :P)

im not saying one or the other is better, its simply preference, but to say the sin cant keep up with a warrior (and i play almost 100% warrior, with my monk in second, sin 3rd), isn't fair. thats my two cents.

draugr · Apr 21, 2008, 08:09 PM // 20:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

[build prof=W/ axe=12+1+1 str=12+1][eviscerate]["for great justice!"][whirlwind attack][cyclone axe][enraging charge]["save yourselves!"][flail][sunspear rebirth signet][/build]

topped. massive aoe, especially with a n/rt hero spamming splinter weapon and ancestor's rage on you. cyclone axe convienently charges up whirlwind and save yourselves. use eviscerate to finish off anything that's left.

Nice try but no, was asking for the sin version of godmode warr to be topped, not just damage... from most to least important imo... 1. Your IAS is a snare that can certainly be canceled ... every 20 seconds. 2. Cyclone and Whirlwind are conditional, nice when you get the mobs bunched up, but in my PvE experience, from the moment of aggro, the mobs are spread out chasing your squishies. Leading to... 3. Your energy will deplete spamming cyclone on the warrior base pretty quickly, even with a zealous mod. 4. Your crit %, very important on an axe is good but not sinworthy. 5. You won't be able to maintain SY as well without D-Slash unless the mobs conveniently clump up (which their AI tells them not to).

I think the aoe axe build you are looking for is this:

A/W

[Critical Agility] [Way of the Master] [Critical Eye] [For Great justice] [Critical Defenses] [Cyclone Axe] [Triple Chop] [Save Yourselves]

Note the IAS without frenzied or flailing detriment (ooo and the +25 armor!). Note the incredibly high crit % 70ish v 18ish (wow) applied to the aoe attacks . Note the infinite energy that will allow spammage of cyclone and triple chop. Note the infinitely maintained 75% block. Note that the only adrenal skill on the bar is SY, allowing it to have the adrenaline pool all to itself.

Try again...

Magikarp · Apr 21, 2008, 08:15 PM // 20:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by draugr

Nice try but no, was asking for the sin version of godmode warr to be topped, not just damage... from most to least important imo... 1. Your IAS is a snare that can certainly be canceled ... every 20 seconds. 2. Cyclone and Whirlwind are conditional, nice when you get the mobs bunched up, but in my PvE experience, from the moment of aggro, the mobs are spread out chasing your squishies. Leading to... 3. Your energy will deplete spamming cyclone on the warrior base pretty quickly. 4. Your crit %, very important on an axe is good but not sinworthy. 5. You won't be able to maintain SY as well without D-Slash unless the mobs conveniently clump up (which their AI tells them not to).

I think the aoe axe build you are looking for is this:

A/W

[Critical Agility] [Way of the Master] [Critical Eye] [For Great justice] [Critical Defenses] [Cyclone Axe] [Triple Chop] [Save Yourselves]

Note the IAS without frenzied or flailing detriment (ooo and the +25 armor!). Note the incredibly high crit % 70ish v 18ish (wow) applied to the aoe attacks . Note the infinite energy that will allow spammage of cyclone and triple chop. Note the infinitely maintained 75% block. Note that the only adrenal skill on the bar is SY, allowing it to have the adrenaline pool all to itself.

Try again...

haha he's got a point Moriz :P

but all aside, lets stay civil. after all, its mere preference

moriz · Apr 21, 2008, 08:15 PM // 20:15

you must be terrible at pve then. none of the problems you've listed ever happened to me.

also, your build A) has no deepwound and B) no rez, all because you're dedicating skillslots to fill up roles that a warrior innately possess. given such an evidence, it's pretty clear that a warrior is the clear choice.

draugr · Apr 21, 2008, 08:46 PM // 20:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

That was directed at the adrenaline part.

1.75 seconds out of combat?
Ah yeah, you're also missing out Flail, which is much better.
Providing you're on a Warrior.

A Warrior also has [enduring harmony] aswell for 2/3 upkeep of FGJ.

The GDW setup is as follows... Apply to first dmg dealer, add sin buffs way of master crit eye, apply GDW to the second dmg dealer, apply short sin buffs and FGJ immediately before aggro. entering battle with H/H with two party members/pets/allies/minions with GDW on is a massive advantage with no explanation necessary. You can stop and reapply or apply GDW to a damage dealer if the fight is longer... with 30-40% kd on two of your group, the fights usually don't last that long though, GDW may mitigate more damage than SY... who knows. What I do know it that the warr base can't enter combat having buffed two others with it. Just not enough nrg.

Flail > Critical agility? No.

Enduring harmony is great, but I don't really find myself wishing for a 30 sec FGJ that often in a pve fight, esp not enough to give up GDW slot, a 75% block, or the higher crits.

Tyla · Apr 21, 2008, 08:47 PM // 20:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by draugr

The GDW setup is as follows... Apply to first dmg dealer, add sin buffs way of master crit eye, apply GDW to the second dmg dealer, apply short sin buffs and FGJ immediately before aggro. entering battle with H/H with two party members/pets/allies/minions with GDW on is a massive advantage with no explanation necessary. You can stop and reapply or apply GDW to a damage dealer if the fight is longer... with 30-40% kd on two of your group, the fights usually don't last that long though, GDW may mitigate more damage than SY... who knows. What I do know it that the warr base can't enter combat having buffed two others with it. Just not enough nrg.

Maybe on a Barrager with a lucky hit.
Nothing, and I mean NOTHING will mitigate NEARLY as much damage as SY.
Not. Even. RoF.

And 1.75 seconds out of combat is quite stupid if you ask me.
You should be smacking D-Slash as much as possible for the entire duration of FGJ.
Not wasting 10-ish percent of FGJ's duration.

Quote:

Flail > Critical agility? No.

Explain.
Flail is a stance, CA is an enchantment.
As a Warrior, CA's effect is directly integrated into Flail because of the Warrior's naturally high AL.
Not only that, but you're not stripped of your IAS, NEARLY as easily.

draugr · Apr 21, 2008, 09:01 PM // 21:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

you must be terrible at pve then. none of the problems you've listed ever happened to me.

also, your build A) has no deepwound and B) no rez, all because you're dedicating skillslots to fill up roles that a warrior innately possess. given such an evidence, it's pretty clear that a warrior is the clear choice.

1. I'm no pve god, but certainly not terrible.

2. DW - can switch evis for triple chop, but I thought the base of your build is AOE dmg, no? Cyclone axe and triple chop on a build with 70%+ crit > DW in my "terrible" pve experience. BTW a warr, no matter the runes, and zealous mod of the weapon, can never spam triple chop and cyclone as well as a sin, esp after spending 10 nrg on enraging and FGJ...

3. Could take out critical eye for a rez if wanted for groups or pugs, and that would reduce the crit rate down to a "miserable" 60ish% v the warrior's... 18-20%. Fact is, I usually don't run with a rez on myself or heroes in H/H, relying on the hench sigs and hard res that you can't keep them from casting anyway. If I wipe in H/H, would rather just fully wipe to the nearest shrine than res everyone up.

4. The slots that you say I am mimicking a warr with are really things that a sin can do that a warr wishes it could... 75% block, penalty free IAS, high crit rate, spam high nrg skills... BTW, with nighstalker insigs, crit agility, and +8 from a shield, my build has 118 armor against everything, which is really the only diff b/w warr and sin, other than the gimpy warr nrg pool.

What it really boils down to is that I just don't die that much in PvE, which may have something to say about my "terrible" skill level...

moriz · Apr 21, 2008, 09:13 PM // 21:13

since when did a warrior need 75% block to be effective? as for penalty free IAS, please keep in mind that the target you should be attacking are generaly casters... which are often stationary and tend to stand in clumps.

a warrior does not even need high critical rate to be marginally effective. indeed, a sin needs high critical simply to maintain critical defenses and critical agility, as well as putting out equivalent damage to a warrior without criticals. in fact, a sin's critical deals about as much damage as a warrior's normal hit.

as for energy, i can run my warrior build on 20 energy, and never have energy issues without using zealous weapons. i have no idea what kind of buttonmashing you're doing, but if you do have energy issues, you're doing it wrong.

triple chop became obsolete ever since whirlwind attack was introduced. with an elite slot open, i might as well take eviscerate. the combined adrenaline gain from the build ensures that it gets charged up quickly.

Magikarp · Apr 21, 2008, 09:14 PM // 21:14

imo what this really boils down to (for the 50th time) is opinion. i personally would NEVER try to run a warrior weapon on my sin.. thats just me. hell, i've only tried the crit derv scythe crap once or twice myself.

imo.. primarys use their professions skills best, thus, daggers for a sin, axe/sword/ham for warriors. you can use others, but imho, its for gimmicky kinda show stuff.. not really to be effective.

sneak attack, golden fang, db, moeb, crit agil, club or SY! or BH, or w/e ftw.

crit def is optional (i dont really run it, because i like conjures or crit eye), and the rest is situational.

draugr · Apr 21, 2008, 09:15 PM // 21:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Maybe on a Barrager with a lucky hit.
Nothing, and I mean NOTHING will mitigate NEARLY as much damage as SY.
Not. Even. RoF.

And 1.75 seconds out of combat is quite stupid if you ask me.
You should be smacking D-Slash as much as possible for the entire duration of FGJ.
Not wasting 10-ish percent of FGJ's duration.

Explain.
Flail is a stance, CA is an enchantment.
As a Warrior, CA's effect is directly integrated into Flail because of the Warrior's naturally high AL.
Not only that, but you're not stripped of your IAS, NEARLY as easily.

Look, I've actually run GDW spam, so not just making things up. No idea about the numbers on SY, because admittedly, I don't have that skill yet, havent found it necessary to grind the faction for it.

No idea how much damage GDW mitigates, but do know that a mob on it's ass does no dmg to mitigate. I often put it on party pets as they tend to go off and attack different things. GDW is a complete shutdown. Try taking a party against any KDable boss, and putting GDW on three of the team... hilarious, and not near as much human effort as spamming brawling headbutt. O and then there's the +20 dmg we needn't get into...

Did you not read the part where I said the GDW is precast twice before aggro?

On to flail...sure critical agility can be stripped, just as stances can be. I find flail to be more of a curse than blessing in pve because of the snare. It takes you out of combat much more than the 1.75 seconds you seem to worry about so with GDW...

Tyla · Apr 21, 2008, 09:23 PM // 21:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by draugr

Look, I've actually run GDW spam, so not just making things up. No idea about the numbers on SY, because admittedly, I don't have that skill yet, havent found it necessary to grind the faction for it.

Roughly 85%.

Quote:

No idea how much damage GDW mitigates, but do know that a mob on it's ass does no dmg to mitigate. I often put it on party pets as they tend to go off and attack different things. GDW is a complete shutdown. Try taking a party against any KDable boss, and putting GDW on three of the team... hilarious, and not near as much human effort as spamming brawling headbutt. O and then there's the +20 dmg we needn't get into...

A mob on it's ass? You mean a couple of them?

With BH on a Warrior, you get a 3 second KD (Stonefist insigs go without saying if you've got a KD on your bar as a Warrior.).
And again, 1.75 seconds isn't worth giving up.

Quote:

Did you not read the part where I said the GDW is precast twice before aggro?

I thought you were putting it on the majority of your team?
You run radiants or something?

Quote:

On to flail...sure critical agility can be stripped, just as stances can be. I find flail to be more of a curse than blessing in pve because of the snare. It takes you out of combat much more than the 1.75 seconds you seem to worry about so with GDW...

The snare on Flail is nothing to be worried about in PvE.
Especially since with BH, they'll be sat down taking the pounding.

And there's 3 skills that remove stances.
There is ALOT more skills that remove enchantments.

Plus Flail can be renewed in roughly 4-6 seconds.

draugr · Apr 21, 2008, 09:29 PM // 21:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

since when did a warrior need 75% block to be effective?

We aren't talking effective, but better, 75% block that refreshes each crit is worth a slot and if warrs could get it, best believe ALL would use it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

as for penalty free IAS, please keep in mind that the target you should be attacking are generaly casters... which are often stationary and tend to stand in clumps.

Yes, with archers and casters who aren't getting hit with some sort of aoe, which most parties have... they will clump. I love getting those fat aoe hits on my warr (which I love to play) with lots of yellow numbers... who doesn't? Fact is though, that mobs are often running around (think dinos in sparkfly), and flail really hurts when enraging is not up to cancel with when you are moving from mob to mob. Crit agility IAS is so much better in this respect.

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

a warrior does not even need high critical rate to be marginally effective. indeed, a sin needs high critical simply to maintain critical defenses and critical agility, as well as putting out equivalent damage to a warrior without criticals. in fact, a sin's critical deals about as much damage as a warrior's normal hit.

So we have a warr with 14 mastery and a sin at 12, both using axes. You can boost the warr more with runes, sure. I think a sin at 70% crit is gonna come out on top dmg wise... but admittedly to lazy to test.

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

as for energy, i can run my warrior build on 20 energy, and never have energy issues without using zealous weapons. i have no idea what kind of buttonmashing you're doing, but if you do have energy issues, you're doing it wrong..

Have to take issue here. 10 nrg spent on [For great justice] and [enraging charge] leaves you ten. You can do two cyclones with that, then you're done for a bit.The reason warrs run cyclone instead of triple is this very energy problem. Sins don't have that problem, and if you are going for aoe, you want triple on your bar, and sins do triple/cyclone infinitely better.

Again, I love playing my warr, gonna do so tonight, but if I were the OP making a hard choice, the sin base is just better. I also believe Str needs a boost, esp in the elite dept, probably also in the armor penetration.

Tyla · Apr 21, 2008, 09:33 PM // 21:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by draugr

Have to take issue here. 10 nrg spent on [For great justice] and [enraging charge] leaves you ten. You can do two cyclones with that, then you're done for a bit.The reason warrs run cyclone instead of triple is this very energy problem. Sins don't have that problem, and if you are going for aoe, you want triple on your bar, and sins do triple/cyclone infinitely better.

Again, I love playing my warr, gonna do so tonight, but if I were the OP making a hard choice, the sin base is just better. I also believe Str needs a boost, esp in the elite dept, probably also in the armor penetration.

Zealous weapons > Warrior energy problems.

And if you think Strength needs a buff, I would be forced to call you: Bad, stupid or both of them.

It's not the effect that makes Strength good, it's the skills, and I think Strength is the most balanced thing in Guild Wars altogether.

Super Igor · Apr 21, 2008, 09:40 PM // 21:40

Assassin

bla bla bla

Apr 21, 2008, 07:45 PM // 19:45	#66
moriz ??ber t??k-n??sh'??n Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Canada Profession: R/	[build prof=W/ axe=12+1+1 str=12+1][eviscerate]["for great justice!"][whirlwind attack][cyclone axe][enraging charge]["save yourselves!"][flail][sunspear rebirth signet][/build] topped. massive aoe, especially with a n/rt hero spamming splinter weapon and ancestor's rage on you. cyclone axe convienently charges up whirlwind and save yourselves. use eviscerate to finish off anything that's left.

Apr 21, 2008, 08:15 PM // 20:15	#70
moriz ??ber t??k-n??sh'??n Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Canada Profession: R/	you must be terrible at pve then. none of the problems you've listed ever happened to me. also, your build A) has no deepwound and B) no rez, all because you're dedicating skillslots to fill up roles that a warrior innately possess. given such an evidence, it's pretty clear that a warrior is the clear choice.

Apr 21, 2008, 09:13 PM // 21:13	#74
moriz ??ber t??k-n??sh'??n Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Canada Profession: R/	since when did a warrior need 75% block to be effective? as for penalty free IAS, please keep in mind that the target you should be attacking are generaly casters... which are often stationary and tend to stand in clumps. a warrior does not even need high critical rate to be marginally effective. indeed, a sin needs high critical simply to maintain critical defenses and critical agility, as well as putting out equivalent damage to a warrior without criticals. in fact, a sin's critical deals about as much damage as a warrior's normal hit. as for energy, i can run my warrior build on 20 energy, and never have energy issues without using zealous weapons. i have no idea what kind of buttonmashing you're doing, but if you do have energy issues, you're doing it wrong. triple chop became obsolete ever since whirlwind attack was introduced. with an elite slot open, i might as well take eviscerate. the combined adrenaline gain from the build ensures that it gets charged up quickly.

Apr 21, 2008, 09:14 PM // 21:14	#75
Magikarp Desert Nomad Join Date: Nov 2007 Guild: [HAWK]	imo what this really boils down to (for the 50th time) is opinion. i personally would NEVER try to run a warrior weapon on my sin.. thats just me. hell, i've only tried the crit derv scythe crap once or twice myself. imo.. primarys use their professions skills best, thus, daggers for a sin, axe/sword/ham for warriors. you can use others, but imho, its for gimmicky kinda show stuff.. not really to be effective. sneak attack, golden fang, db, moeb, crit agil, club or SY! or BH, or w/e ftw. crit def is optional (i dont really run it, because i like conjures or crit eye), and the rest is situational.

Apr 21, 2008, 09:40 PM // 21:40	#80
Super Igor Banned Join Date: Mar 2008 Guild: why should you kno? Oo Profession: A/W	Assassin bla bla bla