Curse

DarkNecrid · Dec 12, 2007, 03:43 PM // 15:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by combatchuck

Yeah, I figured it would be a DirectX thing. If they would go with OpenGL, it would be a hundred million times simpler to port. Of course, if the guys over at Blizzard are able to develop an engine that does OpenGL and DirectX, you'd think ArenaNet would be capable. Maybe, maybe not. All I know is, if my next computer is a Mac (99% probability), I won't be buying Guild Wars 2 to run on Windows.

Amazingly enough Anet doesn't make over a billion dollars every month and doesn't have two thousand some employee's to just throw around on unimportant naunces like Mac support.

iridescentfyre · Dec 12, 2007, 04:01 PM // 16:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yang Whirlwind

If Mac sales are going up,- it's only because you can install Windows on the new ones!

I have a PC privately, but work all day on a G5 Mac (right now as a matter of fact). I would never ever buy a Mac for my personal use,- they are too expensive and until now (with Windows capabilities) to limited in regards to programs, games, etc.
I have no idea what Apple did to get so loyal fans! Ever since they first leased out the developer rights (long time ago, bought them back later), their platform haven't been remarkedly better or more stabil than Windows - I have crashed more in the last 7 years on my work Mac than on my personal PC.

I'm in a similar situation. I'm a senior in Graphic Design (actually typing this on a Mac at my college right now), though I use a PC at home. Reason being; the only good, substantiated reason to use a Mac is because you've been programmed by their ad campaign. They have no speed benefits, no compatibility benefits, no ease-of-use benefits if you bother to learn anything about your computer. Macs are overpriced compared to their PC counterparts, offer generally less functionality, less control over their workings, and even today still offer a smaller software library. Even the "Macs don't have viruses!" argument went out the window several years ago.

The reason Apple's market share is increasing is a.) the iPod, and b.) their amazing ad campaign. Their ad campaign has succeeded in turning their product into something approaching a positive social movement in the minds of their fans and has equated their competitors with stagnation, tedium, and overall nerdiness. Mac users are relaxed free-spirits who hang out in Starbucks writing novels on their MacBooks, PC users are overweight office workers who can't make Microsoft Word run properly, amirite?

Skuld · Dec 12, 2007, 04:02 PM // 16:02

Reasons:
*Not worth porting, too expensive/time consuming for too little benefit.
*BECAUSE:
**GW uses DirectX
**Mac userbase is tiny, mac gaming base even smaller still
**The small amount with macs who want to play GW are getting on fine with WINE (last time I checked the only real issue was lack of mouse pointer, due to 32 bit png image for the cursor?)

At a guess, WoW and other Blizzard games are on Mac because being such a big (multi-billion dollar) company, they can afford to keep developing it for Mac at a loss, and they probably have Mac-using employees & founders who are Mac/*NIX enthusiasts. Guild Wars seems to lack these, or lack them in sufficiant numbers.

End of thread.

Fril Estelin · Dec 12, 2007, 04:15 PM // 16:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by iridescentfyre

They have ... no ease-of-use benefits if you bother to learn anything about your computer.

I beg to differ! I'm a unix-windows hybrid computer scientist ("best of both worlds" FTW!) whose preferred platform (I've been unable to ask my bosses to buy one so far!) is Mac, and from what I've seen the Mac environment (notably from friends in graphic design, as it seems to be THE platform for this domain) is much more usable. I even tried to Mac-ify my windows (alas, performance problems) and now use ObjectDock. Even Vista is less usable than the Mac interface, it's just better than XP and more importantly shinier.

Quote:

PC users are overweight office workers who can't make Microsoft Word run properly, amirite?

From the comments I get from colleagues, this last statement seems to be faithfull to the impact of Microsoft Office 2007

.

Anyway, we're slipping into the Windows Guild vs. the Mac Guild here. (just in case, check the hall of shame for an interesting point of view)

Josh · Dec 12, 2007, 04:24 PM // 16:24

http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse....gi?u=macs_cant

I love this. ^^

Cahalith · Dec 12, 2007, 04:29 PM // 16:29

I feel like the people arguing "it takes too much time and too little revenue would be earned" missed the whole reason I posted about Cider. That WAS true back when Macs were PPC-only. Now that they are Intel machines and there are alternatives like Cider, ArenaNet could continue to develop GW2 as they are now with NO changes. The porting would be done in a very short time by ANOTHER company, not taking any of ArenaNet's time, and the cost would be low. It would also open the market to other users who might play GW IF they had the option to. To claim that it's too expensive and would take too much of ArenaNet's time is a false claim based on premises that are outdated.

Fril Estelin · Dec 12, 2007, 05:01 PM // 17:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cahalith

To claim that it's too expensive and would take too much of ArenaNet's time is a false claim based on premises that are outdated.

While I like the idea of Cider (and anything that makes interoperability easier), I'm not sure about that point. Look a bit further in their PDF presentation document of Cider, FAQ item 5:

5) How much does does Cider cost?
The business model for Cider is based on a revenue share with the publisher with no upfront fee, no risk and lots of upside potential.

Since Anet is already tight on budget, I'm not sure this could work easily. But it COULD eventually work, since TransGaming already ported so many games (EVE online, BF 2142). I wonder how efficient BF2142 is under Cider, since it's quite a power-hungry game (or may be it only runs at the lowest graphics settings?).

On a more technical level (see FAQ item 6), I'm wondering how Cider would work with the on-the-fly update technology of GW (patching a 4Gb file could bring an emulator to its knees!).

DarkNecrid · Dec 12, 2007, 05:15 PM // 17:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cahalith

I feel like the people arguing "it takes too much time and too little revenue would be earned" missed the whole reason I posted about Cider. That WAS true back when Macs were PPC-only. Now that they are Intel machines and there are alternatives like Cider, ArenaNet could continue to develop GW2 as they are now with NO changes. The porting would be done in a very short time by ANOTHER company, not taking any of ArenaNet's time, and the cost would be low. It would also open the market to other users who might play GW IF they had the option to. To claim that it's too expensive and would take too much of ArenaNet's time is a false claim based on premises that are outdated.

Or you could use that program called Boot Camp and install Windows!

Yeah I know.

1-no one buys a mac to play video games
2-making mac support still takes money & time which Anet doesn't have much of either

Cahalith · Dec 12, 2007, 05:20 PM // 17:20

I know all about BootCamp, I _use_ BootCamp to play. I'm talking about native options when I talk about Cider though. Since Ciderization uses the same source code and patches for the Windows versions can also be applied to the Mac version, there should be very little to NO Mac-specific support issue. Game bugs, etc would be the same across platforms.

As for the revenue, I again point to GameTap/Cyan's use of Cider for Myst Online. Having been a Cyan fan for over 10 years, I know the straits they're in now; Cyan has very few fulltime employees, less than 30. It may even be less than 20. They shut down for several months until GameTap set in. And they can still afford the Ciderization. I'd say that implies that it doesn't cost very much.

Fril Estelin · Dec 12, 2007, 05:31 PM // 17:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cahalith

I know all about BootCamp, I _use_ BootCamp to play. I'm talking about native options when I talk about Cider though. Since Ciderization uses the same source code and patches for the Windows versions can also be applied to the Mac version, there should be very little to NO Mac-specific support issue. Game bugs, etc would be the same across platforms.

Not entirely sure about that. GW is architected with a 4Gb client file, you have to be efficient to patch a bing things like this, it's not a matter of emulating very fast the DX, it goes one step further with the Windows API. But maybe it's no problem for Cider, I have no idea.

Quote:

As for the revenue, I again point to GameTap/Cyan's use of Cider for Myst Online. Having been a Cyan fan for over 10 years, I know the straits they're in now; Cyan has very few fulltime employees, less than 30. It may even be less than 20. They shut down for several months until GameTap set in. And they can still afford the Ciderization. I'd say that implies that it doesn't cost very much.

Good point, you sort of convinced me on that one

. But only Anet can answer that question. I think it'd be even worth to mention this to Gaile Gray!

(it's good to have a real conversation for a change

)

iridescentfyre · Dec 12, 2007, 05:40 PM // 17:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

I beg to differ! I'm a unix-windows hybrid computer scientist ("best of both worlds" FTW!) whose preferred platform (I've been unable to ask my bosses to buy one so far!) is Mac, and from what I've seen the Mac environment (notably from friends in graphic design, as it seems to be THE platform for this domain) is much more usable.

I am a graphic designer. You're right, everyone I know in my field appears to use a Mac. Why is this? I say its a combination of industry tradition and buying into Apple's shameless marketing. If you choose to give me a rebuttal on that, I expect to see a solid technical reason why its "THE platform for my domain" or anyone else's for that matter.

Fril Estelin · Dec 12, 2007, 05:52 PM // 17:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by iridescentfyre

a solid technical reason

Well I could obviously talk about the BSD support which means that Mac OS X users can use FOSS programs and even compile theirs with state-of-the-art computing technology. Or maybe discuss the achievement of having the MACH microkernel in their stuff.

But I won't. You'll notice in my post the word "usable" which refers to this aspect of programs (slighly significantly ignored by Microsoft for years) that is "usability". Not only the ability to easily draw dialog boxes or menus, but an overall consistent interface (see hall of shame above) and a good user experience. I know from first hand experience that Windows user experience got better, and that this aspect is very subjective (after all I'm a computer scientist, I don't have problems with command line interface ... but I do understand why most people do!), but it seems to me that the Mac has an edge here. You can, righfully, say that there's a "hype" factor with Apple (being in security I know fully well the problem), but the new interface of the iPod/iPhone is trully wonderful. Since day one, Steve Jobs and his friends set Apple to follow this HCI path and, though they had to bend some rules given the market pressure (Microsoft Mamoth), they're still excellent on that matter.

wetsparks · Dec 12, 2007, 08:27 PM // 20:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Josh

http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse....gi?u=macs_cant

I love this. ^^

I love maddox, can't believe I forgot about that page. To bad it seems everyone ignored it.

DarkNecrid · Dec 12, 2007, 10:18 PM // 22:18

"As for the revenue, I again point to GameTap/Cyan's use of Cider for Myst Online. Having been a Cyan fan for over 10 years, I know the straits they're in now; Cyan has very few fulltime employees, less than 30. It may even be less than 20. They shut down for several months until GameTap set in. And they can still afford the Ciderization. I'd say that implies that it doesn't cost very much."

Anet has like 4, cause the rest of them are on GW2.

pamelf · Dec 14, 2007, 11:46 AM // 11:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Josh

http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse....gi?u=macs_cant

I love this. ^^

One of his best articles ever!

combatchuck · Dec 14, 2007, 03:24 PM // 15:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by iridescentfyre

I am a graphic designer. You're right, everyone I know in my field appears to use a Mac. Why is this? I say its a combination of industry tradition and buying into Apple's shameless marketing. If you choose to give me a rebuttal on that, I expect to see a solid technical reason why its "THE platform for my domain" or anyone else's for that matter.

I know a few graphic designers, and they seem to rave over something called colorsync. Also, at least, among my circle of friends, they dislike MDI (window-in-window). I'm pretty sure that by now, there are color management systems for every OS that are just as capable as colorsync, but the Mac one was the first to get it right. Or so I'm told.

Quaker · Dec 14, 2007, 07:54 PM // 19:54

You know, we can discuss this issue all we want, but in the end it's up to ANet whether they want to do a Mac version or not. You may as well ask why they don't do a version for the Xbox or PS3 while your at it.

My guess would be - not. One thing that many people overlook is the way that GW (and GW2) are updated and bug fixed dynamically on-line. You can just imagine the chaos of trying to patch different versions for different OS's, for different reasons.

Woop Shotty · Dec 14, 2007, 10:48 PM // 22:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

Amazingly enough Anet doesn't make over a billion dollars every month ...

Oh so Blizzard does?

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

Amazingly enough Anet doesn't ... have two thousand some employee's to just throw around on unimportant naunces like Mac support.

Nuisance?

Curse You · Dec 14, 2007, 11:06 PM // 23:06

Things required to make GW for Macs.

Porting the whole GW code to work with Mac OS
Updating said code
Giving support for said code

That's quite a bit of work just to please a minority. It's just not worth their time or money. Mac gamers are far and few.

P.S. Don't give me that stuff about how "more people are buying Macs". I've heard it before, and frankly, I find it funny. It means more people are going to realize why they didn't have a Mac before... and not in a good way.

Biostem · Dec 15, 2007, 12:19 AM // 00:19

Go to any video game store, (and no, not some OS-specific one), and count how many games they have for the various consoles, PC, and MAC. List them in order from most # of games to least. Excluding used or overstock games for systems that aren't being sold anymore, where will MAC place? I have a strong feeling it'll be last (if the store carries any at all).

Simply put - PC is the only "computer" alternative to consoles w/ a decent selection of games...

Dec 14, 2007, 07:54 PM // 19:54	#57
Quaker Hell's Protector Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Canada Guild: Brothers Disgruntled	You know, we can discuss this issue all we want, but in the end it's up to ANet whether they want to do a Mac version or not. You may as well ask why they don't do a version for the Xbox or PS3 while your at it. My guess would be - not. One thing that many people overlook is the way that GW (and GW2) are updated and bug fixed dynamically on-line. You can just imagine the chaos of trying to patch different versions for different OS's, for different reasons. Last edited by Quaker; Dec 14, 2007 at 07:56 PM // 19:56..

Dec 14, 2007, 11:06 PM // 23:06	#59
Curse You Furnace Stoker Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: South Pole Guild: The Magus Order Profession: N/Mo	Things required to make GW for Macs. Porting the whole GW code to work with Mac OS Updating said code Giving support for said code That's quite a bit of work just to please a minority. It's just not worth their time or money. Mac gamers are far and few. P.S. Don't give me that stuff about how "more people are buying Macs". I've heard it before, and frankly, I find it funny. It means more people are going to realize why they didn't have a Mac before... and not in a good way.

Dec 12, 2007, 04:02 PM // 16:02	#43
Skuld Furnace Stoker Join Date: Sep 2005 Guild: Thousend Tigers Apund Ur Head [Ttgr] Profession: A/	Reasons: Not worth porting, too expensive/time consuming for too little benefit. BECAUSE: GW uses DirectX Mac userbase is tiny, mac gaming base even smaller still *The small amount with macs who want to play GW are getting on fine with WINE (last time I checked the only real issue was lack of mouse pointer, due to 32 bit png image for the cursor?) At a guess, WoW and other Blizzard games are on Mac because being such a big (multi-billion dollar) company, they can afford to keep developing it for Mac at a loss, and they probably have Mac-using employees & founders who are Mac/NIX enthusiasts. Guild Wars seems to lack these, or lack them in sufficiant numbers. End of thread.

Dec 12, 2007, 04:24 PM // 16:24	#45
Josh Desert Nomad Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: England, UK Profession: D/Mo	http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse....gi?u=macs_cant I love this. ^^

Dec 12, 2007, 04:29 PM // 16:29	#46
Cahalith Academy Page Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: New Brunswick, NJ Guild: Tauri of Kobol Profession: A/	I feel like the people arguing "it takes too much time and too little revenue would be earned" missed the whole reason I posted about Cider. That WAS true back when Macs were PPC-only. Now that they are Intel machines and there are alternatives like Cider, ArenaNet could continue to develop GW2 as they are now with NO changes. The porting would be done in a very short time by ANOTHER company, not taking any of ArenaNet's time, and the cost would be low. It would also open the market to other users who might play GW IF they had the option to. To claim that it's too expensive and would take too much of ArenaNet's time is a false claim based on premises that are outdated.

Dec 12, 2007, 05:20 PM // 17:20	#49
Cahalith Academy Page Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: New Brunswick, NJ Guild: Tauri of Kobol Profession: A/	I know all about BootCamp, I _use_ BootCamp to play. I'm talking about native options when I talk about Cider though. Since Ciderization uses the same source code and patches for the Windows versions can also be applied to the Mac version, there should be very little to NO Mac-specific support issue. Game bugs, etc would be the same across platforms. As for the revenue, I again point to GameTap/Cyan's use of Cider for Myst Online. Having been a Cyan fan for over 10 years, I know the straits they're in now; Cyan has very few fulltime employees, less than 30. It may even be less than 20. They shut down for several months until GameTap set in. And they can still afford the Ciderization. I'd say that implies that it doesn't cost very much.

Dec 12, 2007, 10:18 PM // 22:18	#54
DarkNecrid Furnace Stoker Join Date: Jul 2006	"As for the revenue, I again point to GameTap/Cyan's use of Cider for Myst Online. Having been a Cyan fan for over 10 years, I know the straits they're in now; Cyan has very few fulltime employees, less than 30. It may even be less than 20. They shut down for several months until GameTap set in. And they can still afford the Ciderization. I'd say that implies that it doesn't cost very much." Anet has like 4, cause the rest of them are on GW2.

Dec 15, 2007, 12:19 AM // 00:19	#60
Biostem Jungle Guide Join Date: Oct 2007	Go to any video game store, (and no, not some OS-specific one), and count how many games they have for the various consoles, PC, and MAC. List them in order from most # of games to least. Excluding used or overstock games for systems that aren't being sold anymore, where will MAC place? I have a strong feeling it'll be last (if the store carries any at all). Simply put - PC is the only "computer" alternative to consoles w/ a decent selection of games...