Why no Mac support for Guild Wars 2? - Page 2 - Guild Wars Forums

Fril Estelin · Dec 12, 2007, 12:13 PM // 12:13

One simple and effective answer to the OP's question: development cost.

No, it's not just a matter of recompiling GW for OSX ...

Woop Shotty · Dec 12, 2007, 12:41 PM // 12:41

I was pretty sure it was mostly a matter of reliance on Direct X.

combatchuck · Dec 12, 2007, 01:24 PM // 13:24

Yeah, I figured it would be a DirectX thing. If they would go with OpenGL, it would be a hundred million times simpler to port. Of course, if the guys over at Blizzard are able to develop an engine that does OpenGL and DirectX, you'd think ArenaNet would be capable. Maybe, maybe not. All I know is, if my next computer is a Mac (99% probability), I won't be buying Guild Wars 2 to run on Windows.

Fril Estelin · Dec 12, 2007, 01:33 PM // 13:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by combatchuck

If they would go with OpenGL, it would be a hundred million times simpler to port. Of course, if the guys over at Blizzard are able to develop an engine that does OpenGL and DirectX, you'd think ArenaNet would be capable.

It's not about being capable of it, it's about the cost of it. They're able to offer a no-monthly-fee MMO only because they can control all the costs. Moving from DX to OGL would be the end of Anet, as there wouldn't be enough added revenues from this. Plus, DX, despite being proprietary, is more flexible than OGL for most programmers (but OGL has some nice features).

Yanman.be · Dec 12, 2007, 01:38 PM // 13:38

We already have all the pve kiddies thinking they can get a free wow-clone and act like they need a free re-education and then join the forum whining about "nerfs" to their uber 1337 pve build , we already have the farmers who complain that they get jackshit, even though in GW, you need jackshit, and we already have botters who complain they're being banned. Do we really want Apple users? I mean, if they're not smart enough to not trip over a cable(magsafe), or configure their computer ( overpriced plug&play devices ) , why should we expect that they are smart enough to conquer -gasp- pve NM?

combatchuck · Dec 12, 2007, 01:47 PM // 13:47

DirectX is an entire API covering graphics, audio, and input. The *only* advantage in using it is fast development time. Compatibility and user experience go out the window. Run a DirectX 9 game on a DirectX 8 graphics card, or at least try to. Doesn't work. That's because Direct3D is hard-wired into the video card. Quake 4 will run on *any* OpenGL capable graphics card, provided it's fast enough and has enough memory. There are, of course, some hardware features that you'd be lacking, such as hardware T&L, programmable shaders, etc, but it would still run. You can even run OpenGL entirely in software emulation, if you're so inclined (and have the patience). The reason developers like DirectX is because it lets them be lazy.

combatchuck · Dec 12, 2007, 01:50 PM // 13:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yanman.be

We already have all the pve kiddies thinking they can get a free wow-clone and act like they need a free re-education and then join the forum whining about "nerfs" to their uber 1337 pve build , we already have the farmers who complain that they get jackshit, even though in GW, you need jackshit, and we already have botters who complain they're being banned. Do we really want Apple users? I mean, if they're not smart enough to not trip over a cable(magsafe), or configure their computer ( overpriced plug&play devices ) , why should we expect that they are smart enough to conquer -gasp- pve NM?

How have you never been banned?

I didn't intend this to turn into a Mac vs PC flame war, and then Yan showed up. Mods, please close this thread.

Cahalith · Dec 12, 2007, 01:54 PM // 13:54

Actually, everyone here is overestimating the challenges of porting. Back when Macs were on the PowerPC chip, yes, almost everything would have to be redone. That's why most companies didn't bother porting and why some companies could make a living entirely off of porting. With the Intel switch, things have become a different field. While OS X natively uses OpenGL, Boot Camp Windows runs DX games just fine.

There's a company called Cider and a process called Ciderization that can take a completed Windows game and make it capable of being run as a Universal Binary on an Intel Mac. A company called Cyan, famous for the Myst games, used it to make their Myst Online game, Uru (released in 2004 as a Windows-only game, the first and only Cyan product to not support the Mac) an Intel binary. I know, I'm running Uru-for-Mac on my iMac. Before they Ciderized it, I was running it through Boot Camp.

Ciderizing can't be that expensive either. Cyan has less than 30 full-time employees now, down from the Riven-era heydey of more than 50. They're smaller and less financially secure than ArenaNet, and they could do it. I think if ArenaNet wanted to, they could easily Ciderize it and make the game available to Mac players. It's a cheap and not requiring massive amounts of extra work way to get even more users, so as far as I can see, there are no drawbacks to the process.

EDIT: It's not just Uru either, but that's the only one I've played. C&C3: Tiberium Wars, Heroes of Might and Magic V, and X3: Reunion have all successfully been done. GameTap will soon be following, as will many others.

EDIT 2: How it works:

Cider is a sophisticated portability engine that allows Windows games to be run on Intel Macs without any modifications to the original game source code. Cider works by directly loading a Windows program into memory on an Intel-Mac and linking it to an optimized version of the Win32 APIs. Games are "wrapped" with the Cider engine and they simply run on the Mac. This means developers have only one code base to maintain while enjoying the flexibility of targeting multiple platforms and, therefore, multiple revenue streams.

That's directly from their site, folks. No more of the recompiling, no more of the months and years of extra development to make it run- very simple and cost-effective and opens it up for more players to buy.

combatchuck · Dec 12, 2007, 01:59 PM // 13:59

Cider is just a fancy version of WINE. It even comes with the WINE source code. Cedega is the same thing.

Fril Estelin · Dec 12, 2007, 02:04 PM // 14:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by combatchuck

DirectX is an entire API covering graphics, audio, and input. The *only* advantage in using it is fast development time.

Wrong. It's not only "fast" (which is dependent on your level of knowledge of the Windows API anyway) but most importantly (relatively) cheap. There was an article on MSDN developper a while ago (unfortunately, I was unable to find it when I wanted to show it to a friend) where Anet explained how they were able to sustain a no-monthly-fee thanks to the Visual set of tools, which are the most efficient when used in conjunction with Windows API. And DX is exactly that, an API. OGL is more open and standard, but for things like graphics where performance is essential, a more dedicated approach is more successful. (who would want a WoW where you must have a monster computer to have more than 30fps?)

Quote:

Compatibility and user experience go out the window. Run a DirectX 9 game on a DirectX 8 graphics card, or at least try to. Doesn't work.

Yes, because there's nothing like "forward-compatibility" in the computing world. It's only "backward-compatibility" that interests people out there.

Quote:

That's because Direct3D is hard-wired into the video card.

Wrong again (in most cases). Video cards have tons of CPU artefacts and other tricks to implement DX features the best they can. This is also dependent on the driver doing the best job it can to bridge the gap between the card and the DX software. We are talking here about a "science" (so to say), as modern graphic cards are a maze of things and nothing as simple as what you say. (this is not something you'd find in the Mac world, by the way I love Macs).

Quote:

The reason developers like DirectX is because it lets them be lazy.

I'd say you're the lazy one. And the worst type of lazy: the one that will hide is selfishness behind its intellectual lazyness. In the end you're only interested in people answering here to say "Yeah, Anet should implement GW on Mac", you'll simply discard any answer that is not consistent with this statement.

I don't think that ANet's business model would work with ports to the Mac. Things may change if they get into the console world via the NCSoft/Sony trade deal, as they could earn big money on one side and then devote a bit of it on port for Mac.

Fril Estelin · Dec 12, 2007, 02:10 PM // 14:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by combatchuck

Cider is just a fancy version of WINE.

You clearly understand nothing about Software Engineering, do you?

I think Cahalith gave what is potentially the best reply to this thread and possibly your "savior" answer. And this is how you reply to him?

Indeed, this thread shoud be closed...

Yanman.be · Dec 12, 2007, 02:12 PM // 14:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by combatchuck

How have you never been banned?

I didn't intend this to turn into a Mac vs PC flame war, and then Yan showed up. Mods, please close this thread.

Most mods know I'm joking, and I hope most users know it as well.

combatchuck · Dec 12, 2007, 02:30 PM // 14:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

You clearly understand nothing about Software Engineering, do you?

I think Cahalith gave what is potentially the best reply to this thread and possibly your "savior" answer. And this is how you reply to him?

Indeed, this thread shoud be closed...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TransGaming_Technologies

Cider "...shares much of the same core technology as Cedega but is designed for video game designers and publishers."

IE, Wine. Cedega is a non-free fork of Wine designed with gaming in mind. And no, I'm not a software developer.

Also, I wasn't insulting him for offering an answer. He was the only person in the thread to offer an answer other than "there are only 3 mac gamers" or something along that line.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

I don't think that ANet's business model would work with ports to the Mac. Things may change if they get into the console world via the NCSoft/Sony trade deal, as they could earn big money on one side and then devote a bit of it on port for Mac.

That's all you needed to say. The whole ad hominem attack was uncalled for, and that's all I have to say to you.

Fril Estelin · Dec 12, 2007, 02:57 PM // 14:57

I think you don't realise the technical depth of your question (and you probably don't understand the depth of our answers

or yanman.be's sarcasm). Are you playing GW at the moment? If so, is it on a Mac?

This kind of question leads to more crazy one such as: Why is Anet seggregating against mobile phone games users? Why aren't they developping their stuff in Java? Why is it not an open source game so that people can port it themselves?

They have incredibly good programmers, a fantastic artistic team, and a bunch of other great people. But they have to pay these people, and since they are faithfull to their "no monthly fee" philosophy since day one, they have to make choices. Sorry for non-Windows users (in a few years time, when virtualisation technologies will be hardware-optimised and commonplace, these problems will fade away, with business model problems remaining, but we're there yet).

Anyway, I'll leave you to your thread.

Yanman.be · Dec 12, 2007, 03:07 PM // 15:07

I am planning of making an open-source game in java based on GW. Online 1on1 RTS based GW on a chess board, using actual game rules converted to RTS, and you probably will be able to nerf your own skills as you like(provided that your opponent has done the same) because I'll be too lazy to balance it myself

.

Gaile Gray said it would probably interfere with the EULA but afaik so does GW:LP and TexMod, besides what's wrong about honing gw's best part --gameplay?

That way Apple users can also <3 GW, but not in 3D

combatchuck · Dec 12, 2007, 03:18 PM // 15:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

I think you don't realise the technical depth of your question (and you probably don't understand the depth of our answers

or yanman.be's sarcasm). Are you playing GW at the moment? If so, is it on a Mac?

This kind of question leads to more crazy one such as: Why is Anet seggregating against mobile phone games users? Why aren't they developping their stuff in Java? Why is it not an open source game so that people can port it themselves?

They have incredibly good programmers, a fantastic artistic team, and a bunch of other great people. But they have to pay these people, and since they are faithfull to their "no monthly fee" philosophy since day one, they have to make choices. Sorry for non-Windows users (in a few years time, when virtualisation technologies will be hardware-optimised and commonplace, these problems will fade away, with business model problems remaining, but we're there yet).

Anyway, I'll leave you to your thread.

I don't respond well to people calling me stupid. I'm not as stupid as you seem to think. Ignorant of the nuts and bolts, yeah, but that's because I'm not a programmer. I think you established that point.

I never said ANet was a bad company. I agree that their team is good. Theirs is still the only online-exclusive game I'll play, and for good reason. It's an excellent game. That being said, all of the programmers I know say DirectX is ugly, inelegant, and designed for speed code-mashing. Similar to using Frontpage to make a website.

iridescentfyre · Dec 12, 2007, 03:21 PM // 15:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by combatchuck

All I know is, if my next computer is a Mac (99% probability), I won't be buying Guild Wars 2 to run on Windows.

You claim a 99% probability that your next computer being a Mac in spite of the fact that you want to use it to play PC games? What part of this makes sense?

You can throw all the numbers at us you want to about how Apple's market share is growing and absolutely none of it matters because the state of the industry is that game developers develop for PC. Even most of the games that end up on Macs are ports made by third parties, Blizzard being a rare exception. Furthermore it doesn't matter if there's 10,000 Mac users out there, or 500,000,000 if no appreciable number of them are gamers interested in ArenaNet's product.

Yanman.be · Dec 12, 2007, 03:24 PM // 15:24

combatchuck, you're buying a rolls-royce but you complain that the FAA didn't give you an aerospace license? Right.

Fril Estelin · Dec 12, 2007, 03:25 PM // 15:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by combatchuck

I don't respond well to people calling me stupid. I'm not as stupid as you seem to think.

I re-read all my posts, just to be on the safe side, and nowhere did I use this word or any word close to it. Could you please point me to the exact sentence where I said something akin to "stupid"?

Quote:

Ignorant of the nuts and bolts, yeah, but that's because I'm not a programmer. I think you established that point.

Indeed.

Quote:

That being said, all of the programmers I know say DirectX is ugly, inelegant, and designed for speed code-mashing. Similar to using Frontpage to make a website.

Do the programmers you know programme video game? I hate FrontPage, but I know why it's so popular, but I won't delve into the explanations as this is not the point of this thread (though I hope it'll point to the problem of your lack of perspective ... which does not mean that you're stupid, just in case you misunderstand me again...)

yanman.be: If you need help, I could try to rewrite GW in COBOL...

Yang Whirlwind · Dec 12, 2007, 03:39 PM // 15:39

If Mac sales are going up,- it's only because you can install Windows on the new ones!

I have a PC privately, but work all day on a G5 Mac (right now as a matter of fact). I would never ever buy a Mac for my personal use,- they are too expensive and until now (with Windows capabilities) to limited in regards to programs, games, etc.
I have no idea what Apple did to get so loyal fans! Ever since they first leased out the developer rights (long time ago, bought them back later), their platform haven't been remarkedly better or more stabil than Windows - I have crashed more in the last 7 years on my work Mac than on my personal PC.

Dec 12, 2007, 01:54 PM // 13:54	#28
Cahalith Academy Page Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: New Brunswick, NJ Guild: Tauri of Kobol Profession: A/	Actually, everyone here is overestimating the challenges of porting. Back when Macs were on the PowerPC chip, yes, almost everything would have to be redone. That's why most companies didn't bother porting and why some companies could make a living entirely off of porting. With the Intel switch, things have become a different field. While OS X natively uses OpenGL, Boot Camp Windows runs DX games just fine. There's a company called Cider and a process called Ciderization that can take a completed Windows game and make it capable of being run as a Universal Binary on an Intel Mac. A company called Cyan, famous for the Myst games, used it to make their Myst Online game, Uru (released in 2004 as a Windows-only game, the first and only Cyan product to not support the Mac) an Intel binary. I know, I'm running Uru-for-Mac on my iMac. Before they Ciderized it, I was running it through Boot Camp. Ciderizing can't be that expensive either. Cyan has less than 30 full-time employees now, down from the Riven-era heydey of more than 50. They're smaller and less financially secure than ArenaNet, and they could do it. I think if ArenaNet wanted to, they could easily Ciderize it and make the game available to Mac players. It's a cheap and not requiring massive amounts of extra work way to get even more users, so as far as I can see, there are no drawbacks to the process. EDIT: It's not just Uru either, but that's the only one I've played. C&C3: Tiberium Wars, Heroes of Might and Magic V, and X3: Reunion have all successfully been done. GameTap will soon be following, as will many others. EDIT 2: How it works: Cider is a sophisticated portability engine that allows Windows games to be run on Intel Macs without any modifications to the original game source code. Cider works by directly loading a Windows program into memory on an Intel-Mac and linking it to an optimized version of the Win32 APIs. Games are "wrapped" with the Cider engine and they simply run on the Mac. This means developers have only one code base to maintain while enjoying the flexibility of targeting multiple platforms and, therefore, multiple revenue streams. That's directly from their site, folks. No more of the recompiling, no more of the months and years of extra development to make it run- very simple and cost-effective and opens it up for more players to buy. Last edited by Cahalith; Dec 12, 2007 at 01:59 PM // 13:59..

Dec 12, 2007, 12:13 PM // 12:13	#21
Fril Estelin So Serious... Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: London Guild: Nerfs Are [WHAK] Profession: E/	One simple and effective answer to the OP's question: development cost. No, it's not just a matter of recompiling GW for OSX ...

Dec 12, 2007, 12:41 PM // 12:41	#22
Woop Shotty Wilds Pathfinder Join Date: Oct 2006 Guild: Ruthless Mafia [RM] Profession: Mo/	I was pretty sure it was mostly a matter of reliance on Direct X.

Dec 12, 2007, 01:24 PM // 13:24	#23
combatchuck Lion's Arch Merchant Join Date: Mar 2006 Profession: Mo/	Yeah, I figured it would be a DirectX thing. If they would go with OpenGL, it would be a hundred million times simpler to port. Of course, if the guys over at Blizzard are able to develop an engine that does OpenGL and DirectX, you'd think ArenaNet would be capable. Maybe, maybe not. All I know is, if my next computer is a Mac (99% probability), I won't be buying Guild Wars 2 to run on Windows.

Dec 12, 2007, 01:38 PM // 13:38	#25
Yanman.be Banned Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Belgium Guild: [ROSE] Profession: A/	We already have all the pve kiddies thinking they can get a free wow-clone and act like they need a free re-education and then join the forum whining about "nerfs" to their uber 1337 pve build , we already have the farmers who complain that they get jackshit, even though in GW, you need jackshit, and we already have botters who complain they're being banned. Do we really want Apple users? I mean, if they're not smart enough to not trip over a cable(magsafe), or configure their computer ( overpriced plug&play devices ) , why should we expect that they are smart enough to conquer -gasp- pve NM?

Dec 12, 2007, 01:47 PM // 13:47	#26
combatchuck Lion's Arch Merchant Join Date: Mar 2006 Profession: Mo/	DirectX is an entire API covering graphics, audio, and input. The only advantage in using it is fast development time. Compatibility and user experience go out the window. Run a DirectX 9 game on a DirectX 8 graphics card, or at least try to. Doesn't work. That's because Direct3D is hard-wired into the video card. Quake 4 will run on any OpenGL capable graphics card, provided it's fast enough and has enough memory. There are, of course, some hardware features that you'd be lacking, such as hardware T&L, programmable shaders, etc, but it would still run. You can even run OpenGL entirely in software emulation, if you're so inclined (and have the patience). The reason developers like DirectX is because it lets them be lazy.

Dec 12, 2007, 01:59 PM // 13:59	#29
combatchuck Lion's Arch Merchant Join Date: Mar 2006 Profession: Mo/	Cider is just a fancy version of WINE. It even comes with the WINE source code. Cedega is the same thing.

Dec 12, 2007, 02:57 PM // 14:57	#34
Fril Estelin So Serious... Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: London Guild: Nerfs Are [WHAK] Profession: E/	I think you don't realise the technical depth of your question (and you probably don't understand the depth of our answers or yanman.be's sarcasm). Are you playing GW at the moment? If so, is it on a Mac? This kind of question leads to more crazy one such as: Why is Anet seggregating against mobile phone games users? Why aren't they developping their stuff in Java? Why is it not an open source game so that people can port it themselves? They have incredibly good programmers, a fantastic artistic team, and a bunch of other great people. But they have to pay these people, and since they are faithfull to their "no monthly fee" philosophy since day one, they have to make choices. Sorry for non-Windows users (in a few years time, when virtualisation technologies will be hardware-optimised and commonplace, these problems will fade away, with business model problems remaining, but we're there yet). Anyway, I'll leave you to your thread.

Dec 12, 2007, 03:07 PM // 15:07	#35
Yanman.be Banned Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Belgium Guild: [ROSE] Profession: A/	I am planning of making an open-source game in java based on GW. Online 1on1 RTS based GW on a chess board, using actual game rules converted to RTS, and you probably will be able to nerf your own skills as you like(provided that your opponent has done the same) because I'll be too lazy to balance it myself . Gaile Gray said it would probably interfere with the EULA but afaik so does GW:LP and TexMod, besides what's wrong about honing gw's best part --gameplay? That way Apple users can also <3 GW, but not in 3D

Dec 12, 2007, 03:24 PM // 15:24	#38
Yanman.be Banned Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Belgium Guild: [ROSE] Profession: A/	combatchuck, you're buying a rolls-royce but you complain that the FAA didn't give you an aerospace license? Right.

Dec 12, 2007, 03:39 PM // 15:39	#40
Yang Whirlwind ~ Retired ~ Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Copenhagen, Denmark (GMT +1) Profession: E/	If Mac sales are going up,- it's only because you can install Windows on the new ones! I have a PC privately, but work all day on a G5 Mac (right now as a matter of fact). I would never ever buy a Mac for my personal use,- they are too expensive and until now (with Windows capabilities) to limited in regards to programs, games, etc. I have no idea what Apple did to get so loyal fans! Ever since they first leased out the developer rights (long time ago, bought them back later), their platform haven't been remarkedly better or more stabil than Windows - I have crashed more in the last 7 years on my work Mac than on my personal PC.