does Sundering mod actually work? - Page 2 - Guild Wars Forums

Quaker · Apr 15, 2010, 02:56 PM // 14:56

I did some extensive testing of Sundering mods on bows a few years back. I also did tests of Sundering versus Vampiric

First off, there's a few points about testing procedures. To properly test anything you need to eliminate all variables. Therefore the bows need to be as identical as possible with the only relevant difference being the piercing/sundering/vampiric mod.
- The bows should have the same requirement - preferably 9 - and you should have enough points in Marksmanship to meet the requirement.
- The bows should all be the same type - shortbow, longbow, recurve, etc.
- They should all be max damage (duh)
- They should either all have the same mod/inscription, such as 15^50, or all have some irrelevant mods such as +15% versus hexed.

Secondly, you need to do enough attacks to get a statistically meaningful results.

The bottom line of my testing - Vampiric and Sundering both do more damage than just plain piercing. If there is any difference in total damage over time (TDOT) between Sundering and Vampiric, it would take hundreds (if not thousands) of hits to show up. Therefore, within the context of the game (PvE) and the normal rate of killing foes, there is no significant difference between the TDOT of Sundering and Vampiric despite what their various fanboys may say.

byteme! · Apr 15, 2010, 04:20 PM // 16:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quaker

Secondly, you need to do enough attacks to get a statistically meaningful results.

The bottom line of my testing - Vampiric and Sundering both do more damage than just plain piercing. If there is any difference in total damage over time (TDOT) between Sundering and Vampiric, it would take hundreds (if not thousands) of hits to show up. Therefore, within the context of the game (PvE) and the normal rate of killing foes, there is no significant difference between the TDOT of Sundering and Vampiric despite what their various fanboys may say.

I completely agree with this 100%.

imnotyourmother · Apr 15, 2010, 05:30 PM // 17:30

Well this will be my pet project tonight.. just for fun.

I will equip my "Bow" with the different strings. I will use a PERFECT salvage kit to get the string off of the bow.

Also I will stand in the EXACT same spot and target the exact same "dummy" with the exact same bow with the different strings.

I will attack using each bow string for exactly 1 hour and see how much damage I can do. My bow will be CLEAN Crafted Destroyer Bow with NO inscriptions or GRIP.

I will do this with Sundering Bow String and record results and time to kill Dummy
I will do this with Vampiric Bow String and record time to kill Dummy
I will do this with Fiery Bow String and record time to kill Dummy (hero will put Mark of Rodgort on the Dummy) and will spam BEFORE I attack with my first arrow from my destroyer bow.

We will see what the results are.

Also, I will try Sundering while having Read the Wind up. Cast time of Read the Wind should reflect in a DROP in damage since it needs to be reapplied every 24 seconds and takes 3 seconds to apply. What I am looking for here is simply a "Spike in damage" NOT if its better or worse and how much % that spike us with the sundering Bow String.

If you want to come WITH me for this. I will be in the Great Temple of Balt on my monk.

Just add A S L A N to your friends list and PM me.

I WILL be doing this starting on FRIDAY at 8:00 PM EST for the Sundering Bow. You can hook up with me to watch in the GToB in D2.

We will Finally lay this to rest..after 5 years....

Dzjudz · Apr 15, 2010, 06:13 PM // 18:13

Why don't you just do the Master of Damage for 180 seconds a few times with each mod.

Mervil · Apr 15, 2010, 07:10 PM // 19:10

I just did my own research on the sundering mod (not the vampiric mod) and here are the results. I found them interesting as they contradicted a few statements made in-game and on the guildwikis.

METHOD:
(skip down to the conclusion section if you don't care how the test was done)

Attacker: a lvl 20 warrior with 12 in swordsmanship and 12 in strength equipped with a Sundering Wintergreen Sword of Fortitude with a +5 nrg mod. The sundering mod provided a 20% chance to have 20% armor penetration on a hit. The swords damage range was 10-10. The sword was not customized, nor were there any other mods that increase damage.

Target: a lvl 20 assassin with armor level of 70. The assassin was equipped with Zealous Ruby Daggers of Enchanting with a +5 nrg mod; there was no shield equipped nor mods that increased armor or decreased damage.

The "experiment" was done in various stages. Four different damage numbers were noted in each stage: a regular attack, a critical hit, a hit in which sundering triggered, and a critical hit in which sundering triggered.

The first stage was the warrior auto-attacking the assassin with no skills or damage modifiers used by either character.
The second stage was the warrior auto-attacking the assassin while the assassin used skills that boosted armor [first, Shroud of Distress PvP with Blessed Insignia equipped (for an armor boost of +10), and second, Armor of Earth with rank of 12 in Earth Magic, for a total armor boost of +63 (+53 from Armor of Earth and +10 from Blessed Insgnia)].
The third stage was the warrior auto-attacking the assassin while enchanted by Judge's Insight (providing an additional +20% armor penetration) with and without the assassin using the armor boosting skills used in stage 2.
The last stage was the warrior using only Power Attack (dmg +34 @ strength of 12) against the assassin, with and without the assassin using the armor boosting skills used in previous stages.

CONCLUSIONS:
a) Sundering mod DOES trigger during normal attacks (auto-attack) and does not require an attack skill to be used in order to trigger.
b) Armor penetration from the Strength attribute only triggers when using an attack skill.
c) Armor Penetration, whether from a Sundering weapon mod or from a skill, goes through ALL armor (including armor bonuses!) and not just the targets base armor. Mathematically, this means that Effective Armor Rating should be calculated as: EffAR = (BaseAR + ArmBonus)*(1 - AP); BaseAR = base armor rating; ArmBonus = armor bonuses; AP = total amount of armor penetration expressed as a decimal, not percent.
[d) Sort of an oddity, but during the calculation of damage in Guild Wars, the armor effect is rounded down to the nearest integer. This effectively increases actual damage dealt JUUUUSST a tiny bit.]

Dzjudz · Apr 15, 2010, 08:49 PM // 20:49

Well those conclusions (maybe except for point D) are on wiki already?

A: of course sundering triggers during auto-attacks. imnotyourmother just has the wrong idea (has them more often so don't worry)
B: yes, mouse over the strength attribute in-game and it says: "When you use attack skills, each point of Strength gives you 1% armor penetration."
C: does it say anywhere that AP only uses base armor for its calculation? Don't think so
D: yes this is a new point

Mervil · Apr 15, 2010, 10:50 PM // 22:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzjudz

C: does it say anywhere that AP only uses base armor for its calculation? Don't think so

Well, this is actually the reason i did the research in the first place. Actually, it does say somewhere that AP only affects base armor. I refer you to the unofficial guildwiki's page on Armor Penetration. If you click the edit tab, you will notice at the top there is a wiki comment that says, "" In addition, no where does it say that AP DOES goes through all armor. Anyhoo, regardless, it was a fairly fun project for myself, and I now know for certain.

Dzjudz · Apr 15, 2010, 11:25 PM // 23:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mervil

Well, this is actually the reason i did the research in the first place. Actually, it does say somewhere that AP only affects base armor. I refer you to the unofficial guildwiki's page on Armor Penetration. If you click the edit tab, you will notice at the top there is a wiki comment that says, "" In addition, no where does it say that AP DOES goes through all armor. Anyhoo, regardless, it was a fairly fun project for myself, and I now know for certain.

Well it seems you were right, and congrats on finding the 'hidden' message on that page

. It was added in June 2006 and 'hidden' in July 2006.

Apr 15, 2010, 02:56 PM // 14:56	#21
Quaker Hell's Protector Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Canada Guild: Brothers Disgruntled	My 2 cents I did some extensive testing of Sundering mods on bows a few years back. I also did tests of Sundering versus Vampiric First off, there's a few points about testing procedures. To properly test anything you need to eliminate all variables. Therefore the bows need to be as identical as possible with the only relevant difference being the piercing/sundering/vampiric mod. - The bows should have the same requirement - preferably 9 - and you should have enough points in Marksmanship to meet the requirement. - The bows should all be the same type - shortbow, longbow, recurve, etc. - They should all be max damage (duh) - They should either all have the same mod/inscription, such as 15^50, or all have some irrelevant mods such as +15% versus hexed. Secondly, you need to do enough attacks to get a statistically meaningful results. The bottom line of my testing - Vampiric and Sundering both do more damage than just plain piercing. If there is any difference in total damage over time (TDOT) between Sundering and Vampiric, it would take hundreds (if not thousands) of hits to show up. Therefore, within the context of the game (PvE) and the normal rate of killing foes, *there is no significant difference between the TDOT of Sundering and Vampiric* despite what their various fanboys may say.

Apr 15, 2010, 07:10 PM // 19:10	#25
Mervil Frost Gate Guardian Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Wherever Nick the Traveler is Guild: Guardians of Light [GoL] Profession: W/	I just did my own research on the sundering mod (not the vampiric mod) and here are the results. I found them interesting as they contradicted a few statements made in-game and on the guildwikis. METHOD: (skip down to the conclusion section if you don't care how the test was done) Attacker: a lvl 20 warrior with 12 in swordsmanship and 12 in strength equipped with a Sundering Wintergreen Sword of Fortitude with a +5 nrg mod. The sundering mod provided a 20% chance to have 20% armor penetration on a hit. The swords damage range was 10-10. The sword was not customized, nor were there any other mods that increase damage. Target: a lvl 20 assassin with armor level of 70. The assassin was equipped with Zealous Ruby Daggers of Enchanting with a +5 nrg mod; there was no shield equipped nor mods that increased armor or decreased damage. The "experiment" was done in various stages. Four different damage numbers were noted in each stage: a regular attack, a critical hit, a hit in which sundering triggered, and a critical hit in which sundering triggered. The first stage was the warrior auto-attacking the assassin with no skills or damage modifiers used by either character. The second stage was the warrior auto-attacking the assassin while the assassin used skills that boosted armor [first, Shroud of Distress PvP with Blessed Insignia equipped (for an armor boost of +10), and second, Armor of Earth with rank of 12 in Earth Magic, for a total armor boost of +63 (+53 from Armor of Earth and +10 from Blessed Insgnia)]. The third stage was the warrior auto-attacking the assassin while enchanted by Judge's Insight (providing an additional +20% armor penetration) with and without the assassin using the armor boosting skills used in stage 2. The last stage was the warrior using only Power Attack (dmg +34 @ strength of 12) against the assassin, with and without the assassin using the armor boosting skills used in previous stages. CONCLUSIONS: a) Sundering mod DOES trigger during normal attacks (auto-attack) and does not require an attack skill to be used in order to trigger. b) Armor penetration from the Strength attribute only triggers when using an attack skill. c) Armor Penetration, whether from a Sundering weapon mod or from a skill, goes through ALL armor (including armor bonuses!) and not just the targets base armor. Mathematically, this means that Effective Armor Rating should be calculated as: EffAR = (BaseAR + ArmBonus)(1 - AP); BaseAR = base armor rating; ArmBonus = armor bonuses; AP = total amount of armor penetration expressed as a decimal, not percent. [d) Sort of an oddity, but during the calculation of damage in Guild Wars, the armor effect is rounded down to the nearest integer. This effectively increases actual damage dealt JUUUUSST a tiny bit.] Last edited by Mervil; Apr 15, 2010 at 07:15 PM // 19:15..*

Apr 15, 2010, 08:49 PM // 20:49	#26
Dzjudz Furnace Stoker Join Date: Jun 2005 Guild: gwpvx.com/user:dzjudz	Well those conclusions (maybe except for point D) are on wiki already? A: of course sundering triggers during auto-attacks. imnotyourmother just has the wrong idea (has them more often so don't worry) B: yes, mouse over the strength attribute in-game and it says: "When you use attack skills, each point of Strength gives you 1% armor penetration." C: does it say anywhere that AP only uses base armor for its calculation? Don't think so D: yes this is a new point Last edited by Dzjudz; Apr 15, 2010 at 08:52 PM // 20:52..

Apr 15, 2010, 05:30 PM // 17:30	#23
imnotyourmother Desert Nomad Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: in a house Guild: The Knitters Guild Profession: W/R	Well this will be my pet project tonight.. just for fun. I will equip my "Bow" with the different strings. I will use a PERFECT salvage kit to get the string off of the bow. Also I will stand in the EXACT same spot and target the exact same "dummy" with the exact same bow with the different strings. I will attack using each bow string for exactly 1 hour and see how much damage I can do. My bow will be CLEAN Crafted Destroyer Bow with NO inscriptions or GRIP. I will do this with Sundering Bow String and record results and time to kill Dummy I will do this with Vampiric Bow String and record time to kill Dummy I will do this with Fiery Bow String and record time to kill Dummy (hero will put Mark of Rodgort on the Dummy) and will spam BEFORE I attack with my first arrow from my destroyer bow. We will see what the results are. Also, I will try Sundering while having Read the Wind up. Cast time of Read the Wind should reflect in a DROP in damage since it needs to be reapplied every 24 seconds and takes 3 seconds to apply. What I am looking for here is simply a "Spike in damage" NOT if its better or worse and how much % that spike us with the sundering Bow String. If you want to come WITH me for this. I will be in the Great Temple of Balt on my monk. Just add A S L A N to your friends list and PM me. I WILL be doing this starting on FRIDAY at 8:00 PM EST for the Sundering Bow. You can hook up with me to watch in the GToB in D2. We will Finally lay this to rest..after 5 years....

Apr 15, 2010, 06:13 PM // 18:13	#24
Dzjudz Furnace Stoker Join Date: Jun 2005 Guild: gwpvx.com/user:dzjudz	Why don't you just do the Master of Damage for 180 seconds a few times with each mod.