What's so good about Vampiric? - Page 2 - Guild Wars Forums

Bandwagon · Aug 08, 2011, 06:19 PM // 18:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quaker

Let me put it this way - the difference between Vamp and Sundering is marginal, at best, and varies depending upon the target, situation, etc. Sometimes Vamp has the edge, sometimes Sundering has the edge.
The bottom line is that they are basically equivalent. Therefore, saying that one must use Vamp and avoid Sundering, is elitism in it's purist form.

And this is my last word on the subject - I say to the OP and anyone else following this thread - do your own tests, make up your own mind, do whatever floats your boat.

Your correct in saying that the effect is marginal in the grand scheme of things, but in no situation is Sundering ever better then Vampiric in ANY circumstance.

*lemming* · Aug 08, 2011, 06:47 PM // 18:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quaker

Let me put it this way - the difference between Vamp and Sundering is marginal, at best, and varies depending upon the target, situation, etc. Sometimes Vamp has the edge, sometimes Sundering has the edge.
The bottom line is that they are basically equivalent. Therefore, saying that one must use Vamp and avoid Sundering, is elitism in it's purist form.

And this is my last word on the subject - I say to the OP and anyone else following this thread - do your own tests, make up your own mind, do whatever floats your boat.

Just because the difference is negligible doesn't mean that one isn't better than the other. That's a piss-poor attitude to take.

Outerworld · Aug 08, 2011, 07:03 PM // 19:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quaker

The bottom line is that they are basically equivalent. Therefore, saying that one must use Vamp and avoid Sundering, is elitism in it's purist form.

Nobody said "You must use vamp", they said that Vamp is generally better (which it is), yet you deemed it "being elitist". If anything your Unique Snowflake attitude more resembles a form of elitism.

Chrisworld · Aug 08, 2011, 09:36 PM // 21:36

If you really think about it, Vamp increases your "DPS" by a little bit. The degen on your end is trivial.

Sundering is a chance mod, vamp is all the time.

chuckles79 · Aug 08, 2011, 11:20 PM // 23:20

When playing my para, I run around with a furious spear most of the time and for a quick first attack if I have no adrenaline, but then switch to vamp for the fight. The difference is negiligible over single attacks, but that little bit of extra damage adds up over 10 or more attacks.

Swingline · Aug 09, 2011, 07:33 AM // 07:33

The 3-5 life steal takes care of the -1 pip of hp regen and you should always be hitting something when a vamp modded weapon is equipped. Its also constant armor ignoring damage.

Sciros Darkblade · Aug 09, 2011, 06:41 PM // 18:41

Do you lose time switching weapons? If so, how much? Is it around 1 attack's worth? Against short encounters that may negate the advantage of a weapon change if it nets you less than 30-40 dmg...

If you don't lose time then that's a point in favor of switching to vampiric.

Quaker · Aug 09, 2011, 10:11 PM // 22:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sciros Darkblade

If you don't lose time then that's a point in favor of switching to vampiric.

Generally speaking, you don't switch out the vamp between targets - the health loss during battle is not a concern - you just switch out after the battle, between mobs. So, switch time is not a factor, when it comes to using vamp.

iridescentfyre · Aug 10, 2011, 12:21 AM // 00:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quaker

Let me put it this way - the difference between Vamp and Sundering is marginal, at best, and varies depending upon the target, situation, etc.

I don't see how the difference can be "marginal, at best" as a blanket statement when Sundering only affects base damage and every weapon type has a different base damage. Even without looking up figures, it should be quite obvious that Sundering will vary in effectiveness based on what weapon you're using.

Using daggers as an example, as that was the OP's weapon of choice, that 20% armor penetration is applying only to the 7-17 base damage, resulting in a very small increase in damage versus a high damage weapon like a scythe or hammer [where Vampiric is still preferred, but at least its closer].

Daggers strike fast, occasionally dual strike for two hits at once, and generally rely disproportionately on armor-ignoring bonus damage to actually kill anything since they are balanced by such low base damage. They are the textbook case where Vampiric is vastly, unarguably better than Sundering.

As for switching out of battle, why bother? -1 health degen is very negligible; all it takes is a 5e heal from my hero, which the AI is quite happy to cast automatically, every few minutes.

Kunder · Aug 10, 2011, 02:02 AM // 02:02

The only weapon mod that actually has a large effect on battle is Zealous. If you don't need Zealous, Vampiric is then the one that increases damage the most (ignoring special elemental resistance vs elemental mods or condition boosters).

Sundering is anywhere from about 1/2 to 1/5th as effective as vampiric in outputting damage, depending on weapon used and enemy armor level. There are exactly zero situations in which sundering is better since the derv update (which drastically nerfed scythe base weapon damage and boosters), other than for the prospect of putting the mod on a weapon to make idiots pay more for it.

Kunder · Aug 10, 2011, 05:25 AM // 05:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shady Guy

Reading the wiki pages on armor, damage calculation and sundering I get the impression that a sundering mod's 20% armor reduction (when it hits) will count for the entire damage done by a single blow, not just the base 15-22 or 9-41 say the weapon does without enchantments and similar. (please correct me if I am mistaken, it does changes things quite a bit for this)

This being so, if you have buffed yourself to do 50 damage with a particular strike against a 100 armor foe, if you were to hit with a sundering mod you would then have reduced their armor by 20, increasing your damage 50% or to 75 damage. The vamp may do 55, but it would do so consistently, so if we assume for ease of calculation that the 20% or 1/5 chance on sundering mod is accurate in the long run, we divide 25 by 5 and get the exact same dps. (clearly I remembered incorrectly when I said 20 earlier, but I haven't found much need to worry about this in game) So for any strike of a hammer, scythe, or bow against a 100 armor foe, if you are doing more than 50 damage on average you would choose sundering, for less than that vamp does more, and one can run similar calculations to find the figures for other weapons and other armored foes.

I would say this clearly makes vamp in most builds better, as over 50 damage is not typical, but it does mean that there are at least a few situations where sundering does have better dps. Less useful to know since the asuran scan change, but the claims that sundering was never better were bothering me, unless I have overlooked something in how these work.

It affects only base weapon (armor-affected) damage, but not other buffs.
e.g. for scythe

9-41 base damage
+15% mod
+20% customization
(I'm not entirely sure where cracked armor applies in the equation, I think its before sundering which is good vs 60-80 AL but bad for higher AL)
Sundering applies here
+damage from everything else I can think of here, all of it armor ignoring

Very, very few things will boost your base damage other than politely requesting your opponent remove their armor. Furthermore, even though one would think that %armor penetration would scale better with higher armor, it actually gets worse. -16 armor on 80 armor is actually a lot better vs -32 armor on 160 armor because the 160 armor character takes 1/4th the damage in the first place. So even if you are hitting 50 base damage on average per strike, since most enemies in high end PvE (and PvP for that matter) have boosted AL often of at least 80 if not 120 armor, you actually need to hit around 100ish base damage for sundering to start catching up with vampiric.

Reason it was useful before the derv update was because the damage equation on the pre-update skills looked like this:

9-41 (scythe sin crits for 58...)
+15% mod
+20% customization
+75% Aura of Holy Might (+41% against things like warriors with +armor vs phys but not holy)
+75% Asuran Scan
(note this is all stacking multiplicatively, looking at a max of nearly +500% damage against warriors)
Sundering bonus goes here.

20% chance of an extra 100ish damage per strike made sundering useful

Swahnee · Aug 10, 2011, 08:10 AM // 08:10

Quote:

Reading the wiki pages on armor, damage calculation and sundering I get the impression that a sundering mod's 20% armor reduction (when it hits) will count for the entire damage done by a single blow, not just the base 15-22 or 9-41 say the weapon does without enchantments and similar. (please correct me if I am mistaken, it does changes things quite a bit for this)

http://www.guildwiki.org/Damage_calculation:

ED = [([RD ?? DScale ?? AE] + DShift) ?? DMult] + DNeg

Armor penetration's effect is inside AE, while the +damage from attack skills is inside DShift, so AE affects only base damage (RD) with damage scaler (% mods, like customization).

However, some time ago i was posting inside a thread on gladiator's, asking if the sundering mod was maybe better in a spike situation (we were talking about a warrior in PvP, not an assassin in PvE, just to clarify), because if you got lucky you could produce a better spike thanks to the 20% triggering. So the idea was to use a vamp mod while doing pressure (autoattacks in frenzy), and switch to a sund just before unloading the full spike or the micro-spike. The answer, if i remember correctly, was that in theory it could work, but often people choose to spike with vamp too, not to be bothered with changing weapon continuously..however, i don't remember well that discussion, it's likely that i'm forgetting something..

iridescentfyre · Aug 10, 2011, 02:48 PM // 14:48

I think its also useful to point out here, if your daggers are hitting for 7-17 on a 60 AL target, you're going to hit for 3.5-8.5 on a 100 AL target (0.5x). Then let's say your Sundering mod kicks in, your base damage becomes something like 4.8-11.8 instead (~0.7x). On average that's only a few points more damage, and only happens 20% of the time. Compare to 3 lifestealing--every hit--sometimes twice if you dual strike.

That's how I understand it anyway

Sciros Darkblade · Aug 11, 2011, 05:14 PM // 17:14

In a way superior runes are like uber vampiric, constant -75 hp for skill buffs, which may mean a good bit more dmg output. How do the folks that heavily favor vampiric mods feel about superior runes? I personally wear one almost all the time because I'm aggro that way, but I wonder if there's a philosophical difference (or practical, even) between going with one and going with the other.

Outerworld · Aug 11, 2011, 05:29 PM // 17:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sciros Darkblade

In a way superior runes are like uber vampiric, constant -75 hp for skill buffs, which may mean a good bit more dmg output. How do the folks that heavily favor vampiric mods feel about superior runes? I personally wear one almost all the time because I'm aggro that way, but I wonder if there's a philosophical difference (or practical, even) between going with one and going with the other.

It would depend on the class and attribute.

Quaker · Aug 11, 2011, 11:09 PM // 23:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sciros Darkblade

... I wonder if there's a philosophical difference (or practical, even) between going with one and going with the other.

(PvE) I use a variety of Major and Superior runes depending upon the class and build, but I tend to lean towards Majors these days. (My heroes almost exclusively use Majors).
One determining factor is the difference in effectiveness of the skills used in your build when going from 15 to 16 (or +1) in the relevant attribute. If the difference is small (and it usually is), the health loss may not be worth it. It also helps to check the "break points" in skills where the effects go in discrete steps.
Much of the damage/degen/whatever is done these days by PvE-only skills that rely on titles instead of attributes.

And, of course, like so many things, it depends upon you team make-up, the effectiveness of your healers, and the overall DoT of the group, and, most important of all, what floats your boat.

channel098 · Aug 14, 2011, 06:31 AM // 06:31

Using a vamp mod, daggers deal slashing damage (physical damage) except for some that do piercing damage.
So, if your target has +armor versus physical, avoid vamp mod.
If your target has +armor versus elemental, avoid elemental mods.
This applies in Pvp versus other players, so it may not apply in Pve versus monsters.

iridescentfyre · Aug 14, 2011, 10:23 AM // 10:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by channel098

So, if your target has +armor versus physical, avoid vamp mod.

Huh? If your target has high armor vs. physical, you need to shift drastically away from things that buff your armor-respecting base damage to emphasize armor-ignoring bonus damage (which is what you're already doing by using daggers).

If you're trying to suggest that Sundering gets stronger (versus Vampiric) against high-armor targets, this thread already established that it doesn't. Your base damage goes down to nothing against high armor. A buff to nothing is still basically nothing.

Aug 10, 2011, 02:48 PM // 14:48	#33
iridescentfyre Desert Nomad Join Date: Mar 2006 Profession: W/	I think its also useful to point out here, if your daggers are hitting for 7-17 on a 60 AL target, you're going to hit for 3.5-8.5 on a 100 AL target (0.5x). Then let's say your Sundering mod kicks in, your base damage becomes something like 4.8-11.8 instead (~0.7x). On average that's only a few points more damage, and only happens 20% of the time. Compare to 3 lifestealing--every hit--sometimes twice if you dual strike. That's how I understand it anyway Last edited by iridescentfyre; Aug 10, 2011 at 02:50 PM // 14:50..

Aug 08, 2011, 09:36 PM // 21:36	#24
Chrisworld Krytan Explorer Join Date: Aug 2010 Guild: Gameamp Guides [AMP] Profession: W/	If you really think about it, Vamp increases your "DPS" by a little bit. The degen on your end is trivial. Sundering is a chance mod, vamp is all the time.

Aug 08, 2011, 11:20 PM // 23:20	#25
chuckles79 Wilds Pathfinder Join Date: Mar 2009 Guild: FILA Profession: P/	When playing my para, I run around with a furious spear most of the time and for a quick first attack if I have no adrenaline, but then switch to vamp for the fight. The difference is negiligible over single attacks, but that little bit of extra damage adds up over 10 or more attacks.

Aug 09, 2011, 07:33 AM // 07:33	#26
Swingline Forge Runner Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Somewhere far away from you Guild: The Mirror of Reason[SNOW] Profession: W/	The 3-5 life steal takes care of the -1 pip of hp regen and you should always be hitting something when a vamp modded weapon is equipped. Its also constant armor ignoring damage.

Aug 09, 2011, 06:41 PM // 18:41	#27
Sciros Darkblade Krytan Explorer Join Date: May 2005 Location: Ohio Guild: Archons Ascendant [Arch] - Leader Profession: W/	Do you lose time switching weapons? If so, how much? Is it around 1 attack's worth? Against short encounters that may negate the advantage of a weapon change if it nets you less than 30-40 dmg... If you don't lose time then that's a point in favor of switching to vampiric.

Aug 10, 2011, 02:02 AM // 02:02	#30
Kunder Desert Nomad Join Date: Nov 2010	The only weapon mod that actually has a large effect on battle is Zealous. If you don't need Zealous, Vampiric is then the one that increases damage the most (ignoring special elemental resistance vs elemental mods or condition boosters). Sundering is anywhere from about 1/2 to 1/5th as effective as vampiric in outputting damage, depending on weapon used and enemy armor level. There are exactly zero situations in which sundering is better since the derv update (which drastically nerfed scythe base weapon damage and boosters), other than for the prospect of putting the mod on a weapon to make idiots pay more for it.

Aug 11, 2011, 05:14 PM // 17:14	#34
Sciros Darkblade Krytan Explorer Join Date: May 2005 Location: Ohio Guild: Archons Ascendant [Arch] - Leader Profession: W/	In a way superior runes are like uber vampiric, constant -75 hp for skill buffs, which may mean a good bit more dmg output. How do the folks that heavily favor vampiric mods feel about superior runes? I personally wear one almost all the time because I'm aggro that way, but I wonder if there's a philosophical difference (or practical, even) between going with one and going with the other.

Aug 14, 2011, 06:31 AM // 06:31	#37
channel098 Academy Page Join Date: Feb 2009 Guild: Brotherhood of the Shadows [bots] Profession: W/P	Using a vamp mod, daggers deal slashing damage (physical damage) except for some that do piercing damage. So, if your target has +armor versus physical, avoid vamp mod. If your target has +armor versus elemental, avoid elemental mods. This applies in Pvp versus other players, so it may not apply in Pve versus monsters.